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Last check before V3 release


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  • Advanced Member
Im sorry to say im sad to see this as a release candidate.

Im tired of reitterating the same things again so i wont.

Wether its lack of insight, lack of focus, lack of time or a combination of them, voxel sculpting did not become what it could and should have been for V3.

However i do wish you all the best and im certain this release of V3 will bring you some succes.

3dioot

I am sad too, but I think that it could be a wise decision to release 3DC before august, I will explain later why

I really love 3DC, and probably, when 3.0 will be out, the company where I work will buy a lot of licenses of it, but here there are my thoughts.

Currently 3DC seems a patchwork of cool features not well integrated between them ot incomplete.

Now I can understand better the development of other softwares like modo, in which every release dosen't contain so much new features, but the base is really strong and well thought (even if every release is full of bugs :D). Anyway, I read that one of their developer said that often they can write a new feature in very short time actually, but to make that new feature really well integrated with the software, making it usable and then to fine tune it, they can spend months before they can release it.

For instance the new interface is cute, but tools are not well organized. Just to make an example, why the top option bar changes to reflect the voxel tool used if some other parameters are in the parameters window? Shouldn't it be better if they were unified or something else? And then, pens are in a different window then pen option, which is cool, but I would like to click over the icon of the pen to see the pens list.

Why in per pixel painting there are normal maps in a layer, and you can't load them as depth information in low poly models ?

And of course, I can't tell it enough, this is a painting-sculpting application, and the main thing to enjoy it should be a great and robust brush engine.

I know how much efforts Andrew put in this piece of software, and the best thing of 3dc is that FOR SURE all the bugs will be squashed out. He is a master in this, and he release patches very often, instead of many other companies. So I am not worried about bugs, but I hope that 3DC 4.0 will not have ANY new features, but only remake all what is done and improve it at a new level.

What I think is that maybe Andrew is trying to release 3DC before August, and I have to agree. In this date ZBrush 4.0 will be released and no one knows what they will have. If they will release an implementation of voxels and the ability to paint in layers, they could steal some buyers from 3DC.

And then there could be other reasons of course, anyway I hope Andrew knows that 3DC it is not mature enough and he will try to show us that it will be.

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Well I hope that V3 is released with updated documentation!

Two weeks ago, I printed out v2's docs because there was so many things I didn't understand how to use in 3DC.

To expect anyone that hasn't worked with this program over the past few months to get the full benefits from just the v2 docs and tooltips alone is going to cause frustration for sure.

If anything we should also be pouring over the docs for this release as well to spot any corrections or clarifications that may be needed...

-Will

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Well I hope that V3 is released with updated documentation!

That's part of the reason for delaying the release. From Andrew's Twitter post:

"I decided to postpone release date on a week. 3DC is still too raw. Also documentation is not 100% ready now."

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  • Contributor

Alpha87 dx and gl cuda 64 (im not using v3-01 because quadrangulation is empty)

(all this is probably also valid for 32bit versions and I dont think they are hardware related)

FIRST

merged for microvertex trough retopo menu

no apparent quadrangulation error on mesh,default setting used

3DC automapping used

a dozen artifacts ranging from medium to very small

problem seem to be related a lot to 3DCoat automapping

here is same merge but using zb auv tiles automapping

where all polys are a chunk of uv.Maybe it can help you understanding source of problem.

5 or 6 very small artifacts + one spike (but still,it looks a lot better)

UVs

you can use model I already sent to you for testing, its the same really.

or ask Tree321 to do a few merging.

The real problem in this situation is that just 3 or 4 small artifacts are unacceptable on a model in a game.

Normal map has to be right otherwise its the whole point of voxel sculpting that is compromised.

So...I had a wild idea...IF you are not able to assure artifacts free merging maybe you could invent somekind

of second pass where users would be able to manually get rid of the artifacts.

If for each uvs artifacts are at different places it means that if you were able to combine the areas where they are no artifacts you would have a clean model.

(just a very wild idea...)

SECOND

problem :

when doing non-uniform scaling using pose or transform the picmat shaders display incorrectly

on the left ; scaled default sphere

on the right; correct display restored using "move to" on previously cloned space density

ALSO using pose

When selecting the gizmo if you miss by even 1 millimeter and accidentaly click

on a voxel layer, pose switch to that layer...it is the most annoying thing for me using pose(and transform).

When you have a lot of parts on screen and you don't want to hide them it is really a pain.

Please make pose locked to current voxtree layer until user decide to manually select another layer IN THE VOXTREE and not ON SCREEN.

Courage! :)

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  • Contributor

Voxel room recommendations

Not everything on this list is imperative before release, just suggestions.

Increase brush needs smooth control

2D-Paint could have the option to turn off the red alignment grid.This can be distracting.

Scrape tool could use scrape amount control.

Vox pinch needs pinch power control

Vox follow needs follow power control

Pose tool needs greater accuracy when selecting parts close to other parts.Example is legs.When you select with line going from thigh to foot on one leg the other side is selected as well.This is the case with fingers etc.

Pose needs falloff control.Zbrush uses blur mask to control the amount of falloff at edges.This is important for getting accurate bends in joints.

Copy tool would benefit greatly by having depth control of the copied surface.This tool is really useful for creating clothing and other surface variations.It,s very similar to Zbrushes extract tool, but needs better thickness control.A surface extraction only would be good.

Axial command could use slider controls for spin, rotation and pitch.

Bug:When making selection with pose tool sometimes the selection is black sometimes color gradient.If you switch shaders these will alternate depending on the shader.I would prefer the black selection over the deeply saturated gradient colors or a lighter more transparent gradient.(see images)

Bug:Using pose selection does not work on some areas that have been stretched out after using pose selection.(image 3)

Bug:When starting new scene after sculpting a previously saved file,the program becomes non functional.Program must be closed and opened again.

Bug:Undo problem with cut and clone.Take sphere, use cut and clone undo twice, sphere is deleted.

Bug:Split tool:After undoing split operation the space copy is left in vox tree.User must manually delete it.

Bug:Primitives:Undo doesn't work when moving or scaling primitive object.Should go back to last position.

Primitives could use slider controls for parameter options

Merge tool should have options to recenter object to world center.Also to control offset numerically.

Text tool needs parameter control for profile shape (worm, straight etc.)

Cloth:When switching to cloth mode the move rotate scale manipulator can be off center based off the last position of the previously used merge tool.User must go back to merge tool and adjust the shift position to recenter it.

Manipulators:I think this was being worked on just before moving to direct paint.I think it should be given more attention.Unify the manipulators as was the plan.

Some of the present manipulators are more complex then they have to be and functionality is awkward.

Vox tree could be simplified by adding buttons for certain functions such as delete,clone, etc.Rename could be double click on branch name.Transform could be removed from list, it is redundant.Other restructuring could be done.

Alpha 87 win xp 64 dx cuda

post-913-1243874518_thumb.jpg

post-913-1243874527_thumb.jpg

post-913-1243877591_thumb.jpg

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It's great you guys report bugs and suggest other improvements but would it not be smarter if all this was collected in one place and not scattered throughout the entire forum. It makes it a mess to go through it all for Andrew when it's not centralized to one place (thread).

Just a suggestion :)

/ Magnus

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It's great you guys report bugs and suggest other improvements but would it not be smarter if all this was collected in one place and not scattered throughout the entire forum. It makes it a mess to go through it all for Andrew when it's not centralized to one place (thread).

Just a suggestion :)

/ Magnus

Your right I just copied my info to http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2690

I will continue there.

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That's part of the reason for delaying the release. From Andrew's Twitter post:

"I decided to postpone release date on a week. 3DC is still too raw. Also documentation is not 100% ready now."

Okay great, and Kudos to Andrew for NOT releasing his program with lacking documentation like most software companies are doing these days!

The more complex a program is, I realize it's painful to document, especially when there are a lot of features.

However if your customers are going to get the MOST out of those features (and thereby a return on the time spent developing them), comprehensive docs, tips and best practices are very important!

Fortunately v2's functionality isn't too far away from v3's.

-Will

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That's part of the reason for delaying the release. From Andrew's Twitter post:

"I decided to postpone release date on a week. 3DC is still too raw. Also documentation is not 100% ready now."

Yeah, I finished up a video manual for some basics of voxel sculpting a few weeks ago now, it should be ready and posted soon I believe. Andrew would be the one to answer that of course.

There are some video tutorials in the works as well. But it isn't quite finished. ;)

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In 32 bit windows cuda. 87. The voxel stuff always starts up with a solid black shader. It's no problem to get it out of that.. But it's just a weird default setting.

As for v3 being released. Maybe wait til E3 is over? I would hate to see version 3 overlooked because of some video games. But whatever you think is best Andrew, I'm sure it will work out fine.

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It always starts off with whatever foreground color I have selected. I'd prefer if it remember my most recently used shader.

As for E3 I believe a lot of the major software companies are there too like autodesk and NewTek, so during E3 may well be a good time to release. This is a time when studio heads are saying "what can we do to get ahead of those other guys?".

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I'm not so sure i agree that it would be a good idea to release it in time for E3, just to get it out there and get noticed by gamedevs. Better than aim to have a rocksolid application and make sure it's timing match with Siggraph instead and then push the big red advertising button to really get it out there and make sure people notice it. Which btw brings me to the next subject.. if possible we users should try to produce some quality 3d which Andrew can use to showoff the power of 3DC with. Some good advertising material will help boost sales of the product. The gallery is in desperate need of some love from us users. :)

/ Magnus

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  • Applink Developer

I really like this twitter page where you can see the changes that Andrew has made so far. And I have to say that he doing a great job. He is killing those important bugs right now and I'm more and more excited

to buy new 3d-coat v3 when it comes out.

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I still want to buy V3 but Im a little concerned like the others as it seems a bit premature to release it this month. Its got a lot of great tools but they dont quite function as expected, for example the transform tool is really strange - why doesnt it look like any other 3d apps transform tool(circular with x y z poles)? that single pole with the wierd red shapes on it is just confusing! it functions well when you figure out what it does but thats not good enough. Similar problems with the primitive tools when you place a primitive it has wierd handles on it instead of one simple manipulator like in other 3d apps and the manipulator handles get lost when you make the shape smaller - thats wierd and not intuitive or useful to the artist. The move tool sometimes makes artifacts as does the cut and clone tool. The brushes themselves do work but they are sensitive and behave in strange ways creating blobs or merging parts together or smoothing over details when the artist does not want these results, a good sculptor can work around these issues but this shouldnt be the case, it should be simple and natural to use the brushes and tools - like an emulation of natural media. Right now 3dcoat is close to achieving all this but in my opinion still far away enough to be frustrating or confusing. There are many more things I could name which new users or users experienced in other 3d apps would find frustrating, mostly to do with the user interface, but I will stop there for now.

Im only saying this stuff because I want 3D coat to succeed and I hope what is released is good enough to get some great reviews and people arent put off by these things if they are still there.

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Windows version updated to 3.00.02

Mac version will be updated tomorrow.

Changes (from twitter)

- Fixed bug: if you will import DP mesh and go to voxels, you will be unable to sculpt with voxels.

- Longstanding problem solved - points in retopo tool will always be snapped to object and you will never be able to move them outside mesh

- Also I add button "Snap" in retopo tool to snap vertices if scene was changed in some way and you need to re-snap vertices

- Fixed bug: sometimes stroke in DP leaves small quad with unupdated normalmap. It was especially visible if only depth channel was enabled.

- Fixed bug: you was not able to move "space" menu

- Found and fixed bug in Relax function in Retopo tool (Relax acted as sharpen on edges sometimes)

- Tool parameters window is resizable now

- Windows->Popups->Show layers blending now works

- I made migration master that will help to copy all pens, masks, strips, materials, 3B files from previous installation to the new one

- I have set different locations for UserData folder (in My Documents) and temp folders (Undo, Temp) - in Local App Data.

- Pose improved again, it produces much less artifacts (I have not seen anyone in my tests). I made further deep investigations of artifacts in pose/move/surf tool. I found actual reason -it was in marching cubes algorithm. In combination with low float precision it resulted with non-manifold topology. I made changes in algorithm and it resulted with much better and clean result.

- Long standing problem solved - Painting with CUDA on big pen radius is free from artifacts. I had hard times solving this.

- Also In Resolution works faser on CUDA enabled PCSs then in prevoious version.

- Import pen from object dialog improved

- I have add Open icon to start thumbnails panel.

- I have corrected hints in voxel tools

- Undo works after inc resolution but redo inc res disabled

- Now all brushes will work very smoothly even on huge objects - speed of work in static (not rotating) scene depends only on brush size. I found and removed lag appeared after every stroke

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It always starts off with whatever foreground color I have selected. I'd prefer if it remember my most recently used shader.

Right-Click on a shader ball and choose "Select Default Shader".

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Andrew, I have a question, i launched the last release, i got awful slowdown using brushes, i restarted it: same.

I started rc87 to ensure it was not my driver (i got a bsod on first launch of the last release): no slowdown.

I restart the last release: better

Is there a reason ? Cause I can already imagine an user having this kind of performance putting 3dc to the bin :/

Its not the first time that happen, i made a comment simiar to this one when rc87 got released, its weird.

General performance dropped, i get 37 fps in rc87 4 in the last release :x > seems to be dropping without doing nothing, i start with 26 fps then 14 then 11 etc Without touching anything.

Configuration 3dc dx 64 cuda

proc:Q6600

cg: 8800 gts

ram: 4gb.

System: win 7 (rc) x64.

The ogl version is ok in perf except for the surface tools who are laggy as hell, i can't move the brush on the mesh.

Anyway good call on the artefacts, i almost don't have any (first thing that bothered me in 3dc), i still have some using rapidscupt brush though, but its a lot more predictable during scupt :)

-soft stroke doesn't work on voxel mode, it seems to be speed dependant.

-

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I have to agree with BeatKitano,the last prerelease seems slower,maybe for the bug fixing you had to remove optimizations .

About the speed of the program,it's really strange,depending on alpha or beta release you did,sometimes is really fast without lag,sometimes is slower.

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I have to agree with BeatKitano,the last prerelease seems slower,maybe for the bug fixing you had to remove optimizations .

About the speed of the program,it's really strange,depending on alpha or beta release you did,sometimes is really fast without lag,sometimes is slower.

Say it on the bug report sticky, i feel like a strange retard, alone ;)

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Ok, I'm really really nit picking now but I feel that the Textures and Layers menus should sit side by side.

Also (and this happens to me around Eighty% of the time) I go to the Layers Menu everytime I want to do an Adjustment. It just makes much more logical sense that you're doing a Layer operation. The Textures tab seems to me comprised mainly of UV, Material organisation and exportation which doesn't suit Adjustments.

This is just my take on it but maybe others find it more logical the way it currently is.

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