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what is your experience with 3D coat?


Patxito
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Hi everyone.

I am pretty close of buying 3D Coat, but I still have some doubts, there are other great options. I would like to read about your experience all this time using the software, pros and cons, and any useful thing that you can tell me. What can I get with this software that I can't get in other, or what can I get with other softwares that I cannot in 3D coat?

I want to use if for concept art, for environments and characters, so it is not necesary to have perfect topology. I think the auto retopo of 3D coat is good enough.

I want it mostly for sculpting, for now I texture and render in blender wich is fine for me. I has been testing 3D coat for a while, I really like how easy to use it is and how fast you can make things with it, I like the stencils, the UI, the voxel hide, the cut tool, the 2d paint tool, pose tool... I think this software have everything I need, but maybe it doesn't?. Maybe I am falling in love too fast? What can you tell me? should I go ahead and take it?

Thank you.

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56 minutes ago, Patxito said:

Hi everyone.

I am pretty close of buying 3D Coat, but I still have some doubts, there are other great options. I would like to read about your experience all this time using the software, pros and cons, and any useful thing that you can tell me. What can I get with this software that I can't get in other, or what can I get with other softwares that I cannot in 3D coat?

I want to use if for concept art, for environments and characters, so it is not necesary to have perfect topology. I think the auto retopo of 3D coat is good enough.

I want it mostly for sculpting, for now I texture and render in blender wich is fine for me. I has been testing 3D coat for a while, I really like how easy to use it is and how fast you can make things with it, I like the stencils, the UI, the voxel hide, the cut tool, the 2d paint tool, pose tool... I think this software have everything I need, but maybe it doesn't?. Maybe I am falling in love too fast? What can you tell me? should I go ahead and take it?

Thank you.

I am not sure how much of a hassle it is to download and use the 14 day Maxon One (have to do this to try ZBrush) trial, but you could test the sculpting brush feel and performance in both apps...in a side by side comparison, using like brushes on the same exact mesh. What I would suggest is starting with the Human bust model in 3DCoat, do a 30 minute sculpt of the same (target) character/person. Like a game character or celebrity, etc. Then try to do a high detail pass for about 15 minutes in each app. This should give you an idea just how close, if not better in some situations, 3DCoat is to ZBrush (who set the bar pretty high for any competitor). Export a copy of the original bust mesh, from 3DCoat, and use that in ZB.

In my own tests, I found that yes, ZB is very smooth and has a very nice feel to it...but when I ran the same tests in 3DCoat, with Clay brushes comparable to what are standard in ZB, it was pretty freaking close...almost to the point that you could barely tell a difference. I think the new brush engine in 3DCoat (mainly in Surface mode) was developed to give users more customization abilities than even ZB has, especially with the way you can stack modifiers.

Where 3DCoat really stands apart from other apps, is:

1) Voxels...ZB still does not have anything like it. Using a hotkey to remesh the object is not the same as working with Voxels, and with the new Clay Engine in Voxel mode, it is very close to the same type of feel and performance as the Clay Brushes in ZB....especially the WET CLAY brush. It's very nice to work with. The FILL brush in 3DCoat is superior to that in either Surface mode or in ZBrush.

2) You can PBR texture paint and sculpt (especially when using Smart Materials), simultaneously, in 3DCoat. So, for example, if you have a Smart Material for a Cobblestone texture, you can paint + sculpt an object with it, using a single click (the FILL tool in the Paint tools) or brushstroke. Nothing like it in ZB 

3) Sculpt Layers...they are much more flexible and powerful in 3DCoat, because it is integrated with the Paint tools/layers and doesn't break or have the limitations ZB has. For example, if you are painting/sculpting the same cobblestone bridge or path and suddenly decide you need more texture resolution in a certain area, in 3DCoat, it is not a problem to apply more dynamic resolution in the areas of need...even after you have done a lot of texture work. It does not have the severe limitations ZB has, and there are no separate tools for Layers and Morphs. It's all integrated together in 3DCoat. If you want to dial back some layer depth, you can just scrub the DEPTH slider for that layer.

If you want to apply a Boolean to an object after having done a lot of sculpting and texture painting work, that too, is not a problem in 3DCoat. The sculpt layer information will only be erased where the boolean intersection is, and not the entire object. All the sculpt layer information will be intact everywhere else. These things are not possible in ZB.

4) High End texture painting and high end sculpting, retopo and UV editing tools in a single app. Nobody else offers this, and there are Paint features/modes that are not found in other apps. Vertex Paint, VerTextures/Factures and now Voxel Paint (totally new to not only 3DCoat, but the entire industry) allow artists to achieve high level texture painting without Retopo baking meshes or UV's...and a new Simplified exporter to UE5, Blender and other major apps. This gives the user the opportunity to decimate the high poly mesh + Auto UV it, and have 3DCoat bake the details and textures to this lower poly mesh...all as an option.

 

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Thank you so much for your explanation. I tested zbrush time ago and I liked it a lot too, but I have not made a direct comparison, I will make it. In zbrush I like the performance with many millions of polygons, the fact that you can work with different levels of subdivisions, the polygroups, layers, masks, proyecting details into a good topology... I though those would be things that I would miss in 3D coat. But the true is that at least with the tests that I made in 3D coat I was not missing any of those, I found other ways of making the things that I needed. But I didn't try any detailed character sculpt. In my little experience and watching others working, I think both are close in organic sculpting, maybe zbrush is a little superior in few things and works better with millions of polys, but I don't want to make sculpts with every wrinkle, or skin por. 

For hard surface and environments I find that 3D coat is way better, at least I work very comfortable with it, is more easy to use and also faster for many things, I like so much to use stencils with build tool and then make cuts. And also the voxel hide.

1- I like voxels too, in zbrush you need to remesh all the time and you lose details, then you need to make a proyection, wasting extra time, but you can also use sculptrix. About the brushes, I tried some in zbrush, and are awesome. I didnt test 3D coat brushes enough to make a decent comparison, but the ones that I tried worked pretty good.

2- I have not tested this, just some basic materials that comes with 3D coat.  I was using mostly the sculpt room, so I have not idea about how good can this be, I just know the basics of texturing in blender.

3- Layers, other thing that I had not idea about it in 3D coat. This sounds great. I though that this was something pretty good in zbrush that I would miss in 3D coat, looks like I was wrong. I've watched those texturing videos of 3D coat and it looks awesome. 

4- "High End texture painting and high end sculpting, retopo and UV editing tools in a single app". This is too good, have to say, I didn't use it yet the texture paint, retopo (just via decimation) or UV editing.

 

Again, thank you so much for your explanation. I feel like if I am already in love with this software, I will be more in the future when I learn to use those features.

I think I will definetly buy 3D coat, I'll keep waitting if someone sell me his license, if not I think I will keep practicing with the learning license and wait till black friday sales.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Patxito said:

Thank you so much for your explanation. I tested zbrush time ago and I liked it a lot too, but I have not made a direct comparison, I will make it. In zbrush I like the performance with many millions of polygons, the fact that you can work with different levels of subdivisions, the polygroups, layers, masks, proyecting details into a good topology... I though those would be things that I would miss in 3D coat. But the true is that at least with the tests that I made in 3D coat I was not missing any of those, I found other ways of making the things that I needed. But I didn't try any detailed character sculpt. In my little experience and watching others working, I think both are close in organic sculpting, maybe zbrush is a little superior in few things and works better with millions of polys, but I don't want to make sculpts with every wrinkle, or skin por. 

For hard surface and environments I find that 3D coat is way better, at least I work very comfortable with it, is more easy to use and also faster for many things, I like so much to use stencils with build tool and then make cuts. And also the voxel hide.

1- I like voxels too, in zbrush you need to remesh all the time and you lose details, then you need to make a proyection, wasting extra time, but you can also use sculptrix. About the brushes, I tried some in zbrush, and are awesome. I didnt test 3D coat brushes enough to make a decent comparison, but the ones that I tried worked pretty good.

2- I have not tested this, just some basic materials that comes with 3D coat.  I was using mostly the sculpt room, so I have not idea about how good can this be, I just know the basics of texturing in blender.

3- Layers, other thing that I had not idea about it in 3D coat. This sounds great. I though that this was something pretty good in zbrush that I would miss in 3D coat, looks like I was wrong. I've watched those texturing videos of 3D coat and it looks awesome. 

4- "High End texture painting and high end sculpting, retopo and UV editing tools in a single app". This is too good, have to say, I didn't use it yet the texture paint, retopo (just via decimation) or UV editing.

 

Again, thank you so much for your explanation. I feel like if I am already in love with this software, I will be more in the future when I learn to use those features.

I think I will definetly buy 3D coat, I'll keep waitting if someone sell me his license, if not I think I will keep practicing with the learning license and wait till black friday sales.

You are very welcome. I think many people underestimate 3DCoat's ability to handle extreme levels of detail when sculpting, and they also overlook the fact that once the high poly mesh/Voxel details is baked to a Retopo mesh, they can use the Paint tools in the paint room, to add insane levels of normal/displacement map via the DEPTH channel. This would be one of 3DCoat's answers to ZBrush's HD Geometry. The Rhino models (done by Flavio Rygaard) in the recent promo videos show how crazy the polycounts can get in the Sculpt Room (Surface mode), if the user has a fairly robust system (if your system can play modern video games very well, it will likely perform very well in 3DCoat. 64 GB+ RAM and perhaps a GTX 1070 or better, would be recommended for really large scenes).

As for Subdivisions, 3DCoat has it's own way of handling SubD levels. It's not the same, but it is more flexible and forgiving and can be used at any time. Dynamesh and Sculptris Pro will break SubD levels, but 3DCoat doesn't care what you do to a mesh...you can ALWAYS step down to a lower resolution level and have the work done at that level transferred back to the original level.

Regarding Poly Groups, there is some level of equivalency in 3DCoat. For example, with the Pose tool, you can select any part of an object and create "PolyGroup" selections.

3DCoat's MASKING tool, in the Sculpt Workspace, is called the FREEZE tool. You can save it and reload a selection at any point, but you can also convert a freeze selection to a Pose Tool Selection and Polygroup selection (stored in a paint layer). You can see this at work in the above video.

 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I though 3D coat was not able to handle well very high level of detail, but it was not a problem for me, if it is possible then is better than I though, probably some time I make use of it. Looks like with the freeze and pose tool is more than enough to make and store selections. My pc is not very good, but is good enough to work decently with 3D, also I can play most of the games of the last years in medium or high. In zbrush I was able to handle high level of details pretty well and I have upgraded my pc after that. In 3D coat I am not sure if I can handle very high level of details, will see, but I don't really care, is not what I am looking for at the moment. I have 16 gb Ram, RX580 4Gb graphic card, AMD Ryzen 5 1600 Af. Looks great that you always can low the resolution for big changes, I didn't know about it.

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Posted (edited)

For what it's worth, 10 years ago I wanted to start learning more 3d and I was looking for a digital sculpting application.  I already used Blender a bit and I had tried zbrush and silo and Modo.  A friend told me about 3D coat and I tried it and was hooked.

I've progressed with the program over the years, but always had a feeling that I would eventually have to switch to zbrush to take the next step.  2 or 3 years ago I purchased zbrush to try an integrate it into my workflow, but it just never happened and I never use it.  I haven't really found a situation where I needed it over 3D Coat.  Now in the new versions of 3d coat the sculpting and possibilities just keep increasing, I can barely keep up.

There are some things I am still missing.  In particular, I'd like to see non-destructive subdivision stepping and the ability to sculpt on a UV'd non-forced triangulated mesh.  This for me is the only thing really missing.  The rest is polish and workflow enhancements.

To go into more detail on why I want subdiv quad based sculpting...or at least something equivalent is that in 3D coat, there are ways to have a high poly mesh manipulate a low poly mesh, but not a really great way to work the other way around.  It would be nice to have a way to manipulate millions of polygons using a simplified geometry.  This seems tantalizingly close, but frustratingly not implemented.  Another thing that would benefit from something like a subdiv sculpting approach would be baking.  I think curvature, ao, normal maps and displacement maps would all become perfect if you could bake from your UV'd sculpt down to a lower level.

But I'm onboard for the ride. There are things that can be done in 3D Coat that can't be done in any other program and it has an almost complete workflow.  Sculpting gives me a sense of freedom that I haven't experienced in other tools.

Edited by gbball
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Thank you for your answer. Nice to read that people with years of experience using 3D coat are not missing anything important comparing with zbrush or others. 

I am getting convinced that it is really my best option.

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Sadly mine has been negative, and I find that unfortunate. THe processes of transferring meshes back and forth from paint to sculpt, back to paint, with retopo intermediaries works badly, and IMHO, designed poorly. From workflow point of view. Some critical functions don't work at all. Transferring hirez paint mesh to sculpt room is broken and does not work. But I find the concept objectionable. It is somewhat confusing, and really does not work as advertised often. Of course I am coming from being used to Mudbox, where painting and sculpting on object is done simultaneously. In sculpt you can get some really fantastic geometries, but getting that data into a usable displacement and normal maps is cludgy, unreliable, and inaccurate. After almost two months, experience is not getting better for me. I am not quite understanding how a group of intelligent and experienced artists and developers would deploy a workflow that is no error prone , confusing, and just chock full of issues. Sorry! I really can't use this application.

A lot of these 3D paint and sculpt applications suffer from messed up interface and tools. Becouse they do not work in coherent intuitive way. They should work as they would in Photoshop. An example is sliding a decal (image with alpha) on its own layer, and seeing result in realtime in 3d and 2d UV view. Place image on its own layer, grab the transform tool and slide it around.  In Coat  the spline tool, which is used for that, does not work at all in my hands. Watching training videos, I was left with a sense, that tutorials are lying to me, as tools do not behave as shown. Some of those I can't follow the narrator at all. I lose them at same point, no matter how many times I rewatch it.

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30 minutes ago, Dave_ah said:

Sadly mine has been negative, and I find that unfortunate. THe processes of transferring meshes back and forth from paint to sculpt, back to paint, with retopo intermediaries works badly, and IMHO, designed poorly. From workflow point of view. Some critical functions don't work at all. Transferring hirez paint mesh to sculpt room is broken and does not work. But I find the concept objectionable. It is somewhat confusing, and really does not work as advertised often. Of course I am coming from being used to Mudbox, where painting and sculpting on object is done simultaneously. In sculpt you can get some really fantastic geometries, but getting that data into a usable displacement and normal maps is cludgy, unreliable, and inaccurate. After almost two months, experience is not getting better for me. I am not quite understanding how a group of intelligent and experienced artists and developers would deploy a workflow that is no error prone , confusing, and just chock full of issues. Sorry! I really can't use this application.

A lot of these 3D paint and sculpt applications suffer from messed up interface and tools. Becouse they do not work in coherent intuitive way. They should work as they would in Photoshop. An example is sliding a decal (image with alpha) on its own layer, and seeing result in realtime in 3d and 2d UV view. Place image on its own layer, grab the transform tool and slide it around.  In Coat  the spline tool, which is used for that, does not work at all in my hands. Watching training videos, I was left with a sense, that tutorials are lying to me, as tools do not behave as shown. Some of those I can't follow the narrator at all. I lose them at same point, no matter how many times I rewatch it.

ive always wondered why its not a single window...~

just drop the menus down and allow us the freedom, have each mesh in a layered box...

yes painting need alot of work... the layer system is confusing and not very well done..
but please give these guys a chance.. its feedback that helps development, they have a million worries where they are at the minute and yet they still each night go to forums and answer questions.. work very hard on 3d coat and work very closely with their community,

i know theres a lot they could do to improve but theres also alot they have done thats right too..
 

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I believe there is only a handfull of people (2 of them replied here already) that actually knows how to use 3DC to its max potential and I feel the rest of us are all beta testers who paid to test it :D :D :D

In my case I've been testing it on and off for a very long time but never could get past the sculpt room because I cant wrap my head around the workflow. Tutorials are scarce and mostly outdated or mostly about the basic stuff. So being a hobbyist image maker I keep using Z cause I can finish images without leaving it.

To Patxito: These are the dark times for Zbrush. Dont buy it, dont even think about it. I know 3DCoat is great if you can figure it out and use Blender for your other needs. 

Edited by Koray
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51 minutes ago, Dave_ah said:

Sadly mine has been negative, and I find that unfortunate. THe processes of transferring meshes back and forth from paint to sculpt, back to paint, with retopo intermediaries works badly, and IMHO, designed poorly. From workflow point of view. Some critical functions don't work at all. Transferring hirez paint mesh to sculpt room is broken and does not work. But I find the concept objectionable. It is somewhat confusing, and really does not work as advertised often. Of course I am coming from being used to Mudbox, where painting and sculpting on object is done simultaneously. In sculpt you can get some really fantastic geometries, but getting that data into a usable displacement and normal maps is cludgy, unreliable, and inaccurate. After almost two months, experience is not getting better for me. I am not quite understanding how a group of intelligent and experienced artists and developers would deploy a workflow that is no error prone , confusing, and just chock full of issues. Sorry! I really can't use this application.

A lot of these 3D paint and sculpt applications suffer from messed up interface and tools. Becouse they do not work in coherent intuitive way. They should work as they would in Photoshop. An example is sliding a decal (image with alpha) on its own layer, and seeing result in realtime in 3d and 2d UV view. Place image on its own layer, grab the transform tool and slide it around.  In Coat  the spline tool, which is used for that, does not work at all in my hands. Watching training videos, I was left with a sense, that tutorials are lying to me, as tools do not behave as shown. Some of those I can't follow the narrator at all. I lose them at same point, no matter how many times I rewatch it.

Yes,

What you've said is currently an issue and more so for those coming to 3D Coat from other applications and hoping to use the same workflows that they've used previously.  3D Coat can probably do what you want, perhaps aside from the displacement baking accuracy, but you might have to approach it in different ways to do most of what you want and possibly enlist the use of other complimentary apps for displacement baking.

3D Coat could do a better job of integrating a more familiar workflow as inevitably more and more people will discover it coming from other applications and be puzzled about the workflow.

Blender had a very similar issue pre 2.8 where it had it's own way of doing things and people coming from other applications just could make it jibe with their expectations.

If 3D Coat added a more unified, non-destructive mesh/sculpt system, and dropped rooms and instead had contextual tools depending on modes and/or what kind of mesh you're working on, it would make a massive difference in terms of adoption. 

There is still a lot that is unique to the program and that is what it needs to be appreciated for, but this might not be what the typical 3d artists are looking for.

Edited by gbball
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For sculpting, where your geo remains inside Coat, its fantastic. I don't like ZBR, but like Mudbox. But my need is bringing meshes with clean perfect UV's and perfectly matching topo from 3DScanstore (www.3dscanstore.com) painting maps, sculpting displacement, then exporting the maps to 16bit halfFloat EXR, and rarely sculpt meshes as blend targets. To use maps as displacement maps in render engines I work with inside Maya and Houdini using Arnold, Renderman, Vray, and Redshift depending on client. The exported displacement maps have to replicate what I sculpted in Coat. I am not there with Coat on this issue. This scanning with inside depth and outside depth is weird. I thought I had got it, understood it, but I don't. Most pressing issue is that I cannot take a hirez paint mesh into sculpt room. The resulting sculpt mesh is ******! A few islands of poly's here and there.  It makes no sense to me. None at all. So as workaround, which doesn't really work, is to bring in hirez mesh into paint, bring in same sourced hirez mesh into sculpt, and sub-d cage mesh into topo room. But its so confusing and confounding when things don't work. Leaves me with "Why are they doing this? Why would they design it that way?"

I want to bring in sub-d mesh , sub-d mesh to arbitrary high rez, then sculpt and paint on it, with results visible in 3D view and resulting map in UV 2D view. But these room's concept is not for me. Having a sculpt object, a paint object, a topo object of same mesh, is no good for me. Since it is so easy to eff up and paint color on sculpt mesh, or sculpt on paint mesh, and not even know it, is just angst.  They need to simplify from artist's point of view. Bring in mesh, or make your own from scratch in Coat. Then sculpt and paint on one object with layers. I can't even slide a decal around withoiut the spline tool going nuts. Any kind of error results in new control point. Grabbing a control point on control curve and moving it, ever slightly, results in weird uncontrolled twisting. I have no clue what its doing, and I am not getting better. The basic deisgn of tool, is built on faulty premise. Just emulate Photoshop for G*d's sake! Copy/paste a decal with alpha into a desired map on its own layer, like in Photoshop, then use transform tool, like in Photoshop, to slide the decal around. As long as mesh has good UV's. Instead I am presented with odd spline tool which twists and warps the decal in ways that I do not understand. 

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Well my experience with 3DC have just changed for the worse :( . I found out that my perpetual pro license has expired and I cannot install past version 34 unless I pay 45Euros :(

So being a hobbyist my testing days are over for now. I hope v34 is one of the better ones for sculpting :(

 

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3 hours ago, Koray said:

Well my experience with 3DC have just changed for the worse :( . I found out that my perpetual pro license has expired and I cannot install past version 34 unless I pay 45Euros :(

So being a hobbyist my testing days are over for now. I hope v34 is one of the better ones for sculpting :(

 

This is the case with virtually any paid software, where (during the Maintenance period) you get to use the last available update (perpetually, on a perpetual license) before the period expires. Just yesterday, I upgraded Camtasia from 2020 to 2022. It comes with a year of "maintenance" and I know upfront that it will not get any free updates or upgrades past Sept 12 2023. Why would your experience change for the worse? You received exactly what you paid for, right?

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1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

This is the case with virtually any paid software, where (during the Maintenance period) you get to use the last available update (perpetually, on a perpetual license) before the period expires. Just yesterday, I upgraded Camtasia from 2020 to 2022. It comes with a year of "maintenance" and I know upfront that it will not get any free updates or upgrades past Sept 12 2023. Why would your experience change for the worse? You received exactly what you paid for, right?

You'd be absolutely right if I ever had used 3DC for anything for once at all. Every time I fired it up I got discouraged by something and couldnt really create anything in it. I upgraded to pro to maybe use it for texturing but nada. Nothing at all.

On the other hand I purchased ZB many years ago, received updates for free (till recently you know) and created everything with it and a little ps since. Can you see the difference?

I mean Vox Hide is cool but not that cool. I'm sure if I try to use v34 for a few hours right now, I will run into many problems as always. Even if I dont run into problems and actually start something cool in sculpt room, I still would have to export it to ZB to make it better or to Blender to have a cool render. Means I paid for something that I havent used, that doesnt really work and tested it to make it work. Check my other posts if you have to :D

And I have been waiting since for a good recent set of tutorials that teaches what to do after I create a masterpiece of 55mil polys in 3dc. I know the cupcake tutorial :D 

Well this has been fun, thanks for everything, cheers and good luck all. 

 

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Attached image is my usual experience with 3DC. Normally I would post this in the development thread but no need now since I cant install the new updates. 

The problem is not the money. Its the developers adding alot of unnecessary stuff to it instead of making a fully polished software that works and is dependable and/or predictable.

Sure all software has problems but I can usually guess when I'm in danger. 3DC is full of nasty surprises.

Below image is 3DC thinking I have hidden volumes in surface mode no matter how many times I deleted the hidden before switching from voxel and broke the mesh after control+z :D . 

Will never post in this thread again cause I actually want them to succeed and mean no harm.

Edit: Apparently I mentioned this before while my pro lic was still active in June:

"When sculpting in voxel mode, after using the vox hide and make sure deleted the hidden; Surface brushes sometimes believe you still have hidden geo and warn you :D

Not a major bug but needs a fix :) 

Edited June 15 by Koray"

 

02.jpg

Edited by Koray
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2 hours ago, Carlosan said:

@Koray You are using version 2022.34

Latest version is 2022.47

Can you please check if in the latest version this bug is repeated or is it solved ?

Thank you

My perpetual license has expired. 34 is as far as I can get. Do you remember an earlier version that doesnt have it? :D :D  

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Unfortunately I don't remember.

A pity that your license has expired because that bug was resolved in the latest version (checked and reconfirmed).
*You can also test this fix using 3DC on trial mode.

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5 minutes ago, Carlosan said:

Unfortunately I don't remember.

A pity that your license has expired because that bug was resolved in the latest version (checked and reconfirmed).
*You can also test this fix using 3DC on trial mode.

:D Story of my experience with 3DC. Purchased, tested, reported but is fixed after my license expires :D

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