Bug that developers don't want to issue because "it's supposed to work like that"

[SebastianG]

Hi!
First of all, hello to everyone, this is my first post on the forum and I am doing this basically to get the attention of the developers and try to gauge if I am logical with this bug.
I've tryed to contact the developers directly for them to solve it and they rejected it.
I've been suffering with this bug ever since I have 3D coat (March 2022).
This software is super powerful and I am super happy with it but this few issues that I am having costs me a lot of time (and therefore money) so that's why I am addressing this issue in a public matter.
The issue is explained here:
https://imgur.com/a/PxDMvht
and Stanislav Chernyshuk responded with a screenshot of the behaviour and I should hit alt+click (which I've already explained it's incorrect from my point of view).
I which I insisted explaining my reasoning:
https://imgur.com/a/B10ZwzB
and he responded: 
"Hi Sebastian, I asked the lead programmer about the visibility of layers and he confirmed to me that he intentionally made that logic as it is in 3DCoat now. That is not a mistake:"

Now I am working with a file that has approximately 400 items:
https://imgur.com/a/G0ZgrWp
I alt+clicked one item, saved the file, closed the file, opened it again and I cannot activate all the items at once, I can't even select the parts I want to work on the screen because they are deactivated. If I alt+click, it doesn't work (this happened me before, there's a bug here where the software doesn't remember the alt+click grouping). I have to manually turn on every part again.
It's super frustrating to deal with something that developers consider to be correct and works incorrectly (in my point of view).
If someone agrees with my line of thinking please share your thoughts. If I am wrong, please let me know why.

Best regards,
Sebastian Gaggino

Edited September 9, 2022 by SebastianG

[Carlosan]

Hello

Are you using latest version 2022.46 ?

[SebastianG]

Hello Carlosan, thanks for your prompt reply.
I was using 2022.45, I've updated it now and solved the last problem I pointed out. Now I can work with my latest model as with alt+click I can activate everything at once.
I cannot drag+drop OBJ files now but that's for another discussion.

Please let me know your thought on group activation/deactivation view/hide. Do you think that this is working correctly right now? Maybe there's a way that I could not figure out, that will be (in part) my fault because it's a very important feature in my line of work.

[Carlosan]

Please try this script. Hope it help  

On 4/26/2018 at 5:15 AM, Carlosan said:

The Script is direct downloadable from the following attach

To install it, simply copy the "unghost.txt" and "unghost.xml" files to the following directory: "C:\Users\user\Documents\3DCoat\UserPrefs\Scripts\ExtraMenuItems"

3DC_UnGhost.zip 817 B · 11 downloads

 

[Carlosan]

Andrew said:
I will try to correct this. At least make the behavior optional.

[SebastianG]

Thanks for reaching out to him.
I am super happy and thankful to hear that.

[Andrew Shpagin]

Seems I don't understand. 
There really was the problem that alt+click state was not saved into the scene, so after opening the scene return with alt+click was not working.

This is fixed. But from picture I don't understand what you feel correct and what - incorrect for you.

 

[SebastianG]

Hi Andrew, nice to meet you, first of all congratulations with the result of the great effort it seems you've put into the software. I am very happy with it and it's a one of my main working tools.

I made this video, I am not a native speaker, I tryed my best to explain it but it seems a complex topic to convey properly, I hope I made myself clear. Either you understood it or not, please let me know.

If anyone other than Andrew have any opinion please let me know, maybe my reasoning is not the best one.

Best regards,
Sebastian.

[alexn007]

Totally agree with everything you said. Very clear video. I think how things are in 3D coat now is fine for simple models with a few large parts, but very frustrating when working with articulated parts that are organized properly. The other benefit would be that if the hierarchy is more standard it could be imported and exported in and out of other applications and still maintain that hierarchy organization.

I love 3d coat, but these are just great quality of life features that would help support better artist workflows.

[Carlosan]

@SebastianG You can use Pose tool (Object mode) to move only select part on hierarchy.

[SebastianG]

On 10/1/2022 at 5:14 AM, Carlosan said:

@SebastianG You can use Pose tool (Object mode) to move only select part on hierarchy.

Thanks for the suggestion. This seems a workaround for only one of the topics mentioned on the general issue I am presenting.
It's clear that you are a power user and there are a lot of workarounds but it's really difficult to learn them in a intuitive manner. 
The issue I am presenting is more in line with the idea that the software should be easy for newcomers and power users alike.
If the user interface is simple, both group of users will find value on easy to use/learn user-interfaces.

[AbnRanger]

2 hours ago, SebastianG said:

Thanks for the suggestion. This seems a workaround for only one of the topics mentioned on the general issue I am presenting.
It's clear that you are a power user and there are a lot of workarounds but it's really difficult to learn them in a intuitive manner. 
The issue I am presenting is more in line with the idea that the software should be easy for newcomers and power users alike.
If the user interface is simple, both group of users will find value on easy to use/learn user-interfaces.

Sabastian, it's understandable to have some frustrations, but what Carlos suggested is actually not a work-around. If a user has multiple objects on the same Sculpt Tree layer, they are indicating that they want them all to be treated as a single unit/object. The Pose Tool is actually a more advanced TRANSFORM tool, and thus it can do things the TRANSFORM tool cannot do. I have asked Andrew to change the name so new users understand this without the need of a tutorial.

You can also have 3DCoat separate individual objects on the same layer, so that they are completely independent. With your layer in Surface mode, go to the GEOMETRY menu and choose SEPARATE DISCONNECTED PARTS.

[SebastianG]

1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

Sabastian, it's understandable to have some frustrations, but what Carlos suggested is actually not a work-around. If a user has multiple objects on the same Sculpt Tree layer, they are indicating that they want them all to be treated as a single unit/object. The Pose Tool is actually a more advanced TRANSFORM tool, and thus it can do things the TRANSFORM tool cannot do. I have asked Andrew to change the name so new users understand this without the need of a tutorial.

You can also have 3DCoat separate individual objects on the same layer, so that they are completely independent. With your layer in Surface mode, go to the GEOMETRY menu and choose SEPARATE DISCONNECTED PARTS.

AbnRanger, you can separate disconnected parts if they are surfaces, you cannot do that with Volume, but that's another topic.
The sculpt layer doesn't show the sculpt-object even if they are joined together (the same object). You don't see the object on the tree, you can only see the sculpt layer.
In the case of the example I show to you, the upper-arm is not a unique entity, it's treated the same as the layer and (again: in my opinion) they should be two separate things.
One thing is the layer itself, and the other is an object within that layer. You cannot select the object separately without selecting the layer.
When you use the pose tool, only then you have the ability to isolate the body from the layer, but this has nothing to do with grouping as the arm (upper arm) layer doesn't have any other object than the upper arm.

The point I am trying to make is the one reflected on the video, I think is more intuitive if the objects (even there's only one object in the layer) are displayed in the sculpt tree.
Also, the hierarchical selection/activation/hide-view action should work (again: in my opinion) for all the children.

Here's a short video to show this specific behaviour:

But I insist that this is only one part of the issue I am trying to convey.
The other part is the parent-child hide-show/activate behaviour.

And thank you all for taking the time to discuss this, I  really appreciate it.

Edited October 3, 2022 by SebastianG

[SebastianG]

On 9/18/2022 at 1:31 PM, Andrew Shpagin said:

Seems I don't understand. 
There really was the problem that alt+click state was not saved into the scene, so after opening the scene return with alt+click was not working.

This is fixed. But from picture I don't understand what you feel correct and what - incorrect for you.

 

Hi Andrew, just wanted to check if you understood my point with the videos I showed here.

Best regards

[SebastianG]

1 hour ago, Johny Blaze said:

Hi guys. I think this is right subj. I have one question. Whis Vox Hide tool makes bever corners by reveal (ctrl) mode?

I can't find where control it. It's not a resolution problem, the second screenshot is the same resolution but different tool.

Hi Johny, nice meeting you.
I think that your post has useful information for this topic but and also another issue that has nothing to do with this thread.
Do you mind keeping the useful information and deleting the rest? maybe you can create a new thread with this issue.

Best regards,
Sebastian.

[tiburbage]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:57 AM, AbnRanger said:

Sabastian, it's understandable to have some frustrations, but what Carlos suggested is actually not a work-around. If a user has multiple objects on the same Sculpt Tree layer, they are indicating that they want them all to be treated as a single unit/object. The Pose Tool is actually a more advanced TRANSFORM tool, and thus it can do things the TRANSFORM tool cannot do. I have asked Andrew to change the name so new users understand this without the need of a tutorial.

You can also have 3DCoat separate individual objects on the same layer, so that they are completely independent. With your layer in Surface mode, go to the GEOMETRY menu and choose SEPARATE DISCONNECTED PARTS.

Don, where you say "I have asked Andrew to change the name..." do you mean changing the use of "Object" for the Pose action choice? If so, really think that should be "Part". +1.

[AbnRanger]

6 hours ago, tiburbage said:

Don, where you say "I have asked Andrew to change the name..." do you mean changing the use of "Object" for the Pose action choice? If so, really think that should be "Part". +1.

I meant that I had suggested changing the name of the Pose tool to something more descriptive, like "Advanced Transform" or "Pose-Transform." Zbrush already has the name "TransPose" which would be the most descriptive name, but Pilgway doesn't want to copy unique terms from a competitor.