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The christian moral and EULA


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3d coat is supposed to be a professional company, the presence of god or any of your other personal convictions should have absolutely no presence whatsoever on your website, regardless of how important they are to you.

Interesting thought - I suppose when you start your own company you can run it that way. But in a free society, people who OWN a private company absolutely can and will do this. A good friend owns an ad agency and their slogan (which is written in capital letters in their lobby) is "Love God, Love People, Love Advertising". IT'S HIS BUSINESS - HE OWNS IT.

3dcoat is a tool for artists. I dont see pencils in an art store laced with moral restrictions or personal beliefs. even your "my personal story" is utterly irrelevant on a professional website.

Again this is totally your personal view, from your personal life in your personal world. Who are YOU to impose YOUR views on a company you do not have anything to do with? I have been to art supply stores that indeed display Christian items and slogans all over the place. Perhaps where you live there are none, but that doesn't mean they don't exist in the world. Again, it's up to the OWNER of the business to decide what's appropriate for THEIR business.

if you want to express your beliefs, morals, and life story, then do so on another website. not your company's website. I would expect an intelligent adult and businessman like yourself to understand that.

Wow, can you talk down your nose even further? Your clear superiority isn't coming through well enough.

And in the end, do you really believe that a few silly sentences with the word "god" plastered inside are going to stop someone from creating whatever they want? can you really be that vain?

Silly to you perhaps, but that your personal view. Again, can you give a clear reason why YOUR opinion trumps the opinion of the OWNER and CREATOR of the software/business? Who are YOU? Why are your opinions somehow better? Please explain why you think a business owner should give a flip about your opinion? If you don't like what the owner of a business does with his/her business - DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM!

I'm not trying to "stir the pot" or cause any unnecessary arguing or bitter insults. I just want to make it clear to you that you're running a business.

Yes, and I'm running a business too. Guess what? I OWN it - if I want to post satan worshiping signs all over the inside of my building - that's my business. If I want to paint the walls pink and dress up like Cookie Monster every day - that's my business! I OWN IT and I can do whatever I want with it as long as I don't break any laws.

My suggestion is - take a flying leap. Do not buy the software if you are so offended by someone asking you to please not create things that would be offensive to God. If you don't believe it God, you have nothing to fear. If you are offended by that request - shut up and go away.

I really am tired of "tolerant artists" who are tolerant of everything except Christians.

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I tried to remain silent on this issue, but passion arose.

Paulrus, Thank you for taking such a strong stance on this subject.It seems today everything is exceptable in society except doing the will of God.There is Christian bashing all over the place these days and it seems to be cool to be a fool.This comes as no surprise for most Christians since Jesus said followers of Him would be persecuted for His namesake.

I got news for you Christ haters out there,We win in the end.Don't believe it?Just let a little more time pass.

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin. 23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Now go back to sleep.

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Tree321 I think this has nothing to do with the Christian aspect of the Eula,but mainly the religious aspect of the Eula.It would have been the same with jewish or muslim codes.

The core of the problem is this idea that a software has to be something cold like a pencil.

It is culturally somehow imprinted in most CG people that a software is a tool,a tool to do art and that art is absolute.

But a software can also be art,emotionnal and personnal.

I`m glad that Andrew is breaking that taboo,it is a big step for programmers,to be seen as artists with opinions and beliefs and not just coders working for shareholders.

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argh... i dont want to derail the thread to much so i wont go into too much detail and rather respond to people individually about my post when i have the time. I'm sorry for being rather stern, but it is a serious subject and emotions are going to get the best of us all in a thread like this.

I wasnt "christian bashing".. (my sister and her family are quite religious themselves) however I just think its unprofessional to express ones beliefs within their company, since evidently, there is a very large chance it will offend potential customers. i dont see pixologic, autodesk, or any other competitive, professional 3d company expressing their political and religious principles. and while yes, the owners of the company in question can do whatever they like, i would personally rather not see their opinions on their website either. i think its in everyones best interests.

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Personally I think this thread should be locked.I think all it does is stir up strife and contention which serves no purpose.There seems to be two sides of this issue,those that are offended by the EULA and those who except it.I for one have been drawn to this software mainly because of it's Christian founder and his good nature.When I first read the EULA I new immediately I wanted to support this developer because of his faith, it seems to have done the opposite to some others who refuse to buy it based off the EULA.I think that is a big loss to them as well as to Andrew and it makes me sad.

It's not easy standing up for ones faith and some will be offended by any reference to it, but at the same time those with zeal for their faith need to share it.

Andrew created a piece of software that can be used to create disturbing and offensive images and even promote Satanism if one chooses to do so which would go against his Christian beliefs.It is his wish that his software not be used for these purposes and I support that.If I made a gun I would wish people did not use it to murder.No one can stop one from doing what they will with anything that has been created, it is up to the individual in the end, but there are always consequences for our choices.

I do not agree with the harsh statement pertaining to Infinates work.(at least what I have seen of it) but I respect the views of the author. I think the human body is the most beautiful of all of Gods creations and as artist we have a natural desire to emulate the work of the Master Artist.The female form is a master work that has and should find it's way into many art pieces and if tastefully done it can bring glory to God not offense to Him.

Each person and culture has it's own standards of what is offensive and for that reason it is hard to make a decision when creating the art whether someone will take offense to it.

In the end I feel as though it's up to the individual to use this software as he pleases, but I would hope it is used in a manner that is positive and inspiring.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God

I wish I could do all things to the glory of God,but I still dwell in a body that lusts after sin.Yes we are ALL sinners.

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For all those stating that Andrew CAN do whatever he wants, it's his own company etc etc -Too true! he can!, but the important part is that its just very BAD business, "in my experience anyway- **** gettin sick of adding this"

yes i bought it, but already this religious addition has made me A- not want to use the software, and B feel like i made a mistake.

Call me a crybaby or whatever you want, i'd like to think buying the software gives me the opportunity to express my views on it however i want.

I didn't say **** until i bought it did i?

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When I first read the EULA I new immediately I wanted to support this developer because of his faith, it seems to have done the opposite to some others who refuse to buy it based off the EULA.I think that is a big loss to them as well as to Andrew and it makes me sad.

...

I do not agree with the harsh statement pertaining to Infinates work.(at least what I have seen of it) but I respect the views of the author. I think the human body is the most beautiful of all of Gods creations and as artist we have a natural desire to emulate the work of the Master Artist

...

In the end I feel as though it's up to the individual to use this software as he pleases, but I would hope it is used in a manner that is positive and inspiring.

This, though, is the problem for me...

As I stated up thread, I admire Andrew's testimony, and his principals. I, too, am a Christian. I would never want to violate the letter of the law, or the spirit of the law with regards to the EULA.

But reading the email sent to Infinite tells me that Pilgway's definition of pornography is much broader than mine. And, because I respect Andrew and his wishes, it keeps me from buying 3D Coat. I wouldn't want to do something that inadvertantly creates a problem. As Paul put it, if eating unclean meat offends your brother, don't do it...

So, the EULA issue is not simply intolerant non-Christians wanting to make a stand against Christianity... It is a many faceted problem, with no easy answer...

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This, though, is the problem for me...

As I stated up thread, I admire Andrew's testimony, and his principals. I, too, am a Christian. I would never want to violate the letter of the law, or the spirit of the law with regards to the EULA.

But reading the email sent to Infinite tells me that Pilgway's definition of pornography is much broader than mine. And, because I respect Andrew and his wishes, it keeps me from buying 3D Coat. I wouldn't want to do something that inadvertantly creates a problem. As Paul put it, if eating unclean meat offends your brother, don't do it...

So, the EULA issue is not simply intolerant non-Christians wanting to make a stand against Christianity... It is a many faceted problem, with no easy answer...

Herein lies the core of the issue I started this thread for. A good intention and a beautiful thought has turned against it's originators.

When I first came across the discussed wish, it put a smile on my face, in a good way. Here's a small company that makes a tool that is fast becoming the tool to produce those monsters, manga figures, scantily glad females and all the cg stuff that fills the 3D forums everywhere... And yet the creators are so strong in their faith they wish the program to not be used in making stuff that everyone and their mother does with other software of the same genre.

I don't do much any modelling that would be even borderline of what was the intention behind said passage in EULA. I also find the stereotypical satanic monsters and poorly disguised visualisations of teenage daydreams in the name of "anatomic studies" really boring. Of course an artist depicts what he finds the most interesting, and the role of hormones and the general idea of "coolness" are major factors in that.

But to even make a wish the program should not be used in making anything that in our world is not considered illegal opens a lot bigger can of worms.

As artists we mostly can't stand the thought of any kind of control applied to our work. In the real world there usually is limitations stipulated by the work in question, it's target audience, and our clientele. And as artists we play ball to be able to do this for living, and to gain exposure and new job opportunities.

But for the same real world factors we need tools that can get the job done when needed.

If my clients want to have a model presented in a way I personally consider tasteless or offensive, I would tell that to them straight up. But if they would still want it done that way I would probably still make it for them. I might refuse to have myself or my company associated with it, but I would still do it.

I'm running a small company, and for me to turn down a paying customer would mean their values would really have to be something I disagree with. Such cases would indeed be something along the lines of hatemongering, promoting cruelty towards animals, child abuse or faking the products for downright dishonest business practices. And yet, I know that they would have no problem finding somebody else to do their dirty work.

Having said all that, I could not use 3Dcoat to do the kind of work I think borderlines with the intention behind the EULA passage.

It is not a problem for me, but I totally get why it is to many.

It would have been for me too when I was a little younger. I have done my share of these borderline subjects with other tools a few years ago. :rolleyes:

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Not trying to get the discussion going again, I feel most arguments have been made. (both in this thread and in the other thread that appearantly went "spinning out of control")

But, is there any news? Has there been any discussion in the team?

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Not trying to get the discussion going again, I feel most arguments have been made. (both in this thread and in the other thread that appearantly went "spinning out of control")

But, is there any news? Has there been any discussion in the team?

Bump.

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Not trying to get the discussion going again, I feel most arguments have been made. (both in this thread and in the other thread that appearantly went "spinning out of control")

But, is there any news? Has there been any discussion in the team?

Discussion is planned on 3 July

(Not earlier because not all members are in Kiev now, it is summer)

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I got news for you Christ haters out there,We win in the end.Don't believe it?Just let a little more time pass.

If you expect tolerance then show some. Or is it OK to hate everyone else's religion just so long as no one criticises yours. You view has no relation to the topic at hand your just imposing your beliefs

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Personally, I think the EULA is very original, and I value originality very much.

Since the launch of the V3 alphas I've been recommending 3DCoat to many people from the CG industry but also to traditional artists because of the amount of creative freedom the voxel approach brings to 3D modeling. All those people were very enthusiastic about the program. Some of them chose not to use the software because of the EULA.

The "bad for business" argument seems to be quite redundant. Personally, I have great respect for people that value morality more than money. Especially in post-communist countries.

I do have criticism regarding the EULA as it could be more clear. It seems to scare off some people that feel they could be legally pursued for modeling nipples, penises...

As of my own religious beliefs, here is a nice self-explanatory article: http://cheekymax.wordpress.com/2007/03/09/...y-in-the-world/

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I got news for you Christ haters out there,We win in the end.Don't believe it?Just let a little more time pass.

Roger K is absolutely right. Comments like these are not a good thing.

Fighting intolerance with intolerance... Well, I'd say it is probably a bad idea.

I try to avoid these topics, because I find them ridiculous and can spin out of control quickly. But a comment like that is not really called for. I'd really like to see this thread stay as friendly as possible, please.

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Just lock this crap thread ^^

I'd replace every post with one simple statement:

"Everybody expresses their opinion here" *LOCK*

It would be awesome because of how ironic it would be, because everyone's post had just been deleted =) And because of the LOCK.

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We had internal discussion today. Really hard times. The main problem is that only consensus was required, just "most votes" was not acceptable.

So, result:

- that string from EULA will be replaced with line that is acceptable to everyone (closer to standards), something like "Production of pornographic materials is prohibited in correspondence to your country (or international) laws" - we will ask lawyers how is better, form is not so principial. We will not refer to God in EULA because it can't be legal requirement and not everyone can understand what this reference means. We will not control how 3D-Coat is used, but we will place images in official gallery in corresponding to our view how company's face should look.

- new topic on official site will be open - "Our opinion" or "Our voice". We will tell our opinion there, just like opinion, not legal requirement (nothing offensive, you will see it soon, text is written by me personally). It is important to us because we have own opinion, we are not speechless. Almost every company has some "mission" or direction.

The main point is that intrusion is not good thing, we will not do this, peoples tired of intrusion. But it will be fair if peoples will know our way of thinking if they want.

Bible tells: "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." but not " In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see strictness of your laws and praise your Father in heaven." So we think that this way is better. It is not just "step back". I am sure it is more reasonable.

Just side note - Ukraine is far not religious country, there is full religious freedom, but recently new law was accepted in parliament (unanimously) - against production or even keeping lewd, pornographic and arousing lust materials. Who knows Ukrainian can read it there:

www.irs.in.ua/index.php?option=com_...=68&lang=ru

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We had internal discussion today. Really hard times. The main problem is that only consensus was required, just "most votes" was not acceptable.

So, result:

- that string from EULA will be replaced with line that is acceptable to everyone (closer to standards), something like "Production of pornographic materials is prohibited in correspondence to your country (or international) laws" - we will ask lawyers how is better, form is not so principial. We will not refer to God in EULA because it can't be legal requirement and not everyone can understand what this reference means. We will not control how 3D-Coat is used, but we will place images in official gallery in corresponding to our view how company's face should look.

- new topic on official site will be open - "Our opinion" or "Our voice". We will tell our opinion there, just like opinion, not legal requirement (nothing offensive, you will see it soon, text is written by me personally). It is important to us because we have own opinion, we are not speechless. Almost every company has some "mission" or direction.

The main point is that intrusion is not good thing, we will not do this, peoples tired of intrusion. But it will be fair if peoples will know our way of thinking if they want.

Bible tells: "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." but not " In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see strictness of your laws and praise your Father in heaven." So we think that this way is better. It is not just "step back". I am sure it is more reasonable.

Just side note - Ukraine is far not religious country, there is full religious freedom, but recently new law was accepted in parliament (unanimously) - against production or even keeping lewd, pornographic and arousing lust materials. Who knows Ukrainian can read it there:

www.irs.in.ua/index.php?option=com_...=68〈=ru

Sounds fair.

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Yes it sounds fair and smart.

English is not my primary language either so i ask this with the utmost respect.

Please have this pilgway "mission" proofread by someone who has mastered english to a high(er) degree. This is too important for both you and your company to leave it open to mistakes because english is not your primary language. It will be the face of you and your company. You may think of it as small but its really not. You care about this message alot. Make certain it can only be interpreted the way you have intended it. :good:

3dioot

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good to hear things are being so carefully considered and I look forward to seeing how this is implemented and hope that it can be done in a tasteful friendly professional way that does not cause further confusion in any way.

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Andrew,

I know this was a milestone in which direction you wanted your company to grow. It seems Pilgway had a hard time with the decision. I believe you made the right decision and I liked the way you handled it! I will continue to support 3DC in anyway I can.

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I like the sound of it.

My overall opinion is that trying to control what people do is troublesome, but trying to control on what kind of work the 3DC/Pilgway brand and trademark is associated to is more feasible. With an appropriated EULA you could ask works owner's to drop mention of 3DC if it do not match the company mission/goal.

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Hi Andrew Shpagin,

There's no need to put it in the EULA,just put a Clear link to show your religion on the main page.

I say this because i didn't notice the request under the download button, until i read the E-mail from INFINITE.

You could take a look at the EULA from SILO3D which puts the responsibility to the user of the program.

P.S. : why did you place an image of a AUTOMATIC GUN on page 53 in the latest 3dcoat-manual-pdf edition?

That confuses me a bit.

I to would like to live in a world full of peace and harmony.

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Frankly, I think not even on the main page, somewhere off on a side page maybe. I have read a number of people complain about it when they saw it under the download button. Many people don't even read the EULA so it's even easier to see it on the site in comparison. I'll admit although I was raised catholic I am not at all religious now. My thoughts are that people can do whatever they want as long as they don't cause harm to others and don't stick whatever they're doing in my face. But setting that aside for this discussion, even if I was religious it's just not good business to make potential customers feel alienated.

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However, attempting to hide their company's mission statement is incompatible with their mission. The biggest problem was the obtuse method in which they had implemented it with that guy. In other words they actually want people to read it before they make a purchase decision, not the other way around.

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If I have to be honest,when I have bought 3dcoat I didn't read the EULA,I thinked was a bit more standard.

As a person interested mainly in anatomy and organic sculpting , the old version of the EULA coulded be really limiting,this is also a reason why I stopped posting volumetric sculptures on the forum,I don't want to offend anyone(even if I think that my work,like the ones made by other 3d organic modellers isn't offensive).

It's really important to be clear about that point,the new version of the EULA from my point of view it's much more acceptable.

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Andrew, this is definitely a step in the right direction. As you probably have noticed, this EULA has attracted a lot of attention, being the only one, AFAIK, of this kind in this business. Abd I've seen quite a bit of licenses :)

I think that nobody has an issue with you and your company having a moral standing. That's commendable. But there are many, many issues that can arise from broadly worded licenses. For example, take the word

"lewd", which you used several times. It's extremely relative. Is it "lewd" for a woman to show her breast in public? In some societies that can be true, for French and Italian people that is absolutely false. Thousands of

women in the Italian and French beaches every year sunbathe in that way and nobody finds it lewd, or immoral.

I understand your wish for your tool to not be used for "evil" but it's really not up to you to determine how people use it. Because a lot of artists will do things that can be considerate questionable but such is the nature of artistic

expression. It's a world of relatives and it's a very, very tough to create rules about it. The only clear-cut ground is when addressing child pornography, or hate speech,

issues that are taboo even in the most liberal societies like the US and European countries.

On top of this there is a very simple realization about how people behave. Good people will not need your encouragement. They will make art that you might not agree on, but such is the nature of art and if you decide to give us

this amazing "pencil" that you have created, then you have to realize that it will be used for things that are well beyond what you like but that are still very, very solidly anchored in a moral ground. Moral ground that can be different

from yours but every bit as valid.

The bad people will not be deterred by any license. They will laugh at any restriction and do whatever they want. How many people, who are users of 3DCoat, do you think are in the latter group? 1%? I don't think it's even 0.5%

Is it really worth worrying about them? I doubt it.

Bat the net result of the EULA that you had is only to stop good people from buying your product or to at least, as in my case, hesitate. It's a well known rule of business that you very rarely mix politics or religion with

business. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

Any religious/bible mention in your software will have the effect to dampen the sales as corporate adopters and professionals will wonder how long the software will be in the market given that there are forces at work that

can make it stop or can limit the distribution based on "approved" content. Nobody wants to get into that. Nobody wants to be censored by the maker of the tool, especially in the US where we have a sense of freedom, that is

considered as sacrosanct as anything else. On this 4th of July we are reminded that in the Declaration of Independence the founding fathers called for every American to have the right to "Life, freedom and the pursue of happiness".

You will be very hard-pressed to find any other group that values freedom of expression more than your target audience, artists.

In the Bible human beings are sent to the world with free will. We are left by God able to do good and do evil knowing that on Judgement Day people will be asked to answer for their actions. If I may be so bold, I think

that that takes care of everything and you should not worry about how people use your software. My sincere suggestion is to take every mention to God,Bible or relative terms like lewd out of your EULA. Nobody will ever

consider 3DCoat as an instrument of evil but a lot of people will resent to pay to get a sermon on top of the software. The 3D market is competitive and harsh enough without adding elements that can hurt you. You have a

great software. I will buy it for the retopo feature alone, even though I already have ZBrush and other packages. Don't add obstacles to the succes of 3DCoat more than the ones created by better financed competitive companies.

It's not only the right thing to do for Pilgway but also for its users as it ensures a more stable life for the software.

I would say that your personal story, with your decision to leave the game industry because of moral issues, is your best promotional tool. Leading by example, instead of by restriction, is the best way of inspiring people.

All the best.

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The thing is, if you allow yourself to express your opinion in your creation, how could you ask customers to not express opinions in theirs (even if in total disrespect to yours) ?

If expressing opinion is a right, it must be for anyone no matters the point of view they take. You can't sell a gun and forbid killing people with it you know :)

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