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Issue with Exported File and File Size ? - 3DCoat / DAZ / ZBrush


Laticis
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Hi,

Seeking some advice please and any insight regarding an issue I am dealing with.

Software being used:
3DCoat 2023.27 / DAZ Studio 4.21 / ZBrush 2022.0.7 / Windows 10

Issue:
Exported file size from 3DCoat larger than expected and the exported file disables my ability to create morphs or updates using the original base mesh.

Process:
I have created a cluster of rocks, with a decimated triangulated mesh in ZBrush and created a UV Map at 4096 x 4096 - File Size after export = 5,328 KB
The UV Map created in ZBrush was full of under-utilized space, so I brought it into 3DCoat to utilize the UV packing features.
Imported settings attached and the result of repacking the UV's in 3DCoat.
New UV Map applied and the mesh exported - File Size after export = 8,649 KB
New mesh Imported into DAZ Studio.
New mesh would not accept changes made in Zbrush to the original mesh via GoZ

Problem:
The first noticeable difference is the file size exported from 3D Coat is quite larger compared to the original from ZBrush.

I started looking at this because when I re-imported the new mesh from 3DCoat and I wanted to create an adjustment morph for the rocks.
For this I generally work with ZBrush and GOZ and create the morph or adjust the placement of the rocks.
Unfortunately, I could not do that with the newly imported mesh and the original file.
It not a big issue, because I can just port the new mesh.

But I wanted to know why. Its generally because the vertices count changes which is what my initial assessment was.

After comparing the original file and exported file from 3DCoat, in Zbrush I get the following results: same poly count: 77,538

BUT the Active Point count was different:
Zbrush Original mesh: 39,239
Exported 3D Coat  mesh: 77,607


So, ran Mesh Integrity & Fix Mesh in ZBrush and this certainly worked, repairing the imported 3DCoat mesh rverting the mesh back to 39,239 active points while maintaining the new UV's created.

Not only that, during the process the repaired 3DCoat mesh with UV's 4096 x 4096 has a new file size: after export = 4,806 KB

But even now, with the matching polys and points match, I can't create a morph or mesh change from the original mesh to the new.

Questions:
Why does there seem to be extra vertices created by 3DCoat upon export of the mesh?
Why if the mesh is now match after repair it wont recognise chnage to the original mesh?
Am I doing something wrong?

All I wanted to do was to update the UV's but boy, did that lead me down a rabbit hole :)

Any input, feedback or advice is greatly appreciated.
 

Screenshot 2023-08-20 12.44.22.png

Import Settings.png

Screenshot 2023-08-20 12.50.38.png

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Nice !

yes, I agree with all,
I asked dev team about the ability to keep vertices order.
Bridge to DAZ is needed.
the list you made is amazing, thanks for the effort.

One question
How to import polygroups from zb,3dc into daz ?
I cant separate by regions.

Thanks for you great help !

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Thanks for asking the the Dev Team

Very happy to help :)

Polygroups ( or as DAZ calls them Face Groups ) only show up in one place, under 'Tools Settings' Tab with 'Geometry Editor' Selected. ( please see attached )


The two main things about 'Face Groups' in DAZ

1. it is required when rigging, we assign bones to them, which in turns helps with weight mapping.

2. they can be used to create Surface Materials.
 

Step 7.png

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With a Face Group Selected ( by pressing the + symbol )

And then Right Clicking in Scene opens up functions for that selection.

In this case, if I wanted to I could assign a surface region to the Top Face, Side Face and Bottom Face.

Right Click / Geometry Assignment / Create Surface from Selected
 

Screenshot 2024-06-04 07.26.58.png

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Confirmed

FaceGroup works fine after importing the model exported from Modeling Room to DAZ (is the original demo soldier w/polygroups exported from zbrush)

image.png

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It's been really great to tidy up this workflow...thank you :)

If you wanted to try an experiment in the opposite direction....try exporting Genesis 9 out of DAZ and importing 3DCoat for the following:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Import into Modelling Room. Using the Tweak < Brush Tool with symmetry on in X direction : create some very large ears for Genesis 9 by moving the existing mesh and then re-exporting the mesh.

The idea behind this is to create a morph file for Genesis but because the Vertices Order changes, DAZ produces this message:
WARNING the Geometry did not match failed to create morph.

During this experiment, I got some very interesting results trying to move the mesh around in 3DC (as attached )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Import into Poly Painting Room for texturing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm thinking with a Bridge, 3DCoat could be great for character creating DAZ figures. 
Sub-D Levels would be important for HD Morphs though.

 

Screenshot 2024-06-05 06.42.06.png

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That would be a negative, I havn't gone down the Character Creator route yet.

At the moment creating DAZ Studio content is my main source of income so most of my time is invested into developing that.
Another reason to refine and define my workflow, time is money. 

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Posted (edited)

DAZ Genesis models into 3DCoat for texture painting

----------------------------

The previous procedure to work from daz to 3dc using Paint Room has not changed. 

Import on version 4.22 is working fine using this settings

image.jpeg

I wanted to try another procedure using modeling room, but I found a couple of bugs.

I will continue with the tests when version 2024.20 comes out (soon)

Edited by Carlosan
added workflow
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Yeah, I ran a test about two weeks ago to see how well I could use 3DCoat to apply textures to Genesis and it worked very well.

I am slowly working towards creature creation but main focus at the moment is hair creation. 

Interesting "I wanted to try another procedure using modeling room, but I found a couple of bugs." - I look forward to hearing your results :) 

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- New option "Edit->Prefs->Tools->Don't group vertices per objects in OBJ files (like ZB)" for vetter compatibility when you need to keep the vertex order in OBJ files. Anyway, Coat preserver vertices order, but in some case it is not enough, and vertices should not be grouped. In this case you need his option.

- I was testing this new feature on Modeling room moving vertex* and using Mesh > Export.

* On modeling room this option is working only moving vertex with symmetry turned OFF.

image.jpeg

- On Tweak room is working perfect without issues with symmetry turned ON.

image.png

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Hi Carlosan,

This is great news, thank you very much for letting me know.

I look forward to testing it out :)

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Carlosan
This post was recognized by Carlosan!

Laticis was awarded the badge 'Great Support' and 1 points.

Hi Carlosan,

Finished a product today so I can do some testing.

I am going to rework an old freebie for the Genesis 8 Female.

Step 1 - In DAZ I have removed the Horns and surrounding rings with the Geometry Editor from the existing product. Originally UV'd in 3DCoat they were on separate UVs
Step 2 - Goz to ZBrush so I can quickly create polygroups.
Step 3 - Export from ZBrush as .obj ( unfortunately GoZ won't send over a mesh to DAZ with polygroups.)
Step 4 - Import in DAZ. Using Geometry Editor tools, I use the new polygroups to create new surfaces.

Previously, the mesh only had two surfaces, one for the masks and one for the horns. But because I am removing the horns I have split the mask into the following groups:
LI GorganMask 2024 - Mask Back
LI GorganMask 2024 - Mask Front
LI GorganMask 2024 - Stud Third Eye
LI GorganMask 2024 - Studs Outer

Now the mesh is prepped I re-export as an .obj using Surface Names.


Step 5 - 3DCoat 2024.20 ( Edit / Preferences / Tools / [tick] Don't group vertices per objects in OBJ files (like ZB)
Step 6 - Modelling Room / Import via [Entire Mesh] - please see ( Screenshot 01 )

So successful PolyGroups in 3DCoat. A useful function on import would be to allow the original UV mesh to be maintained while keeping the PolyGroups too.
In this case I don't want to modify the UV's because I want the old textures to suit as well.


Step 7 - Modelling Room / [UV] Mark Seams ( this opens up UV functionality and now I can select islands ) - Move Selected Faces to Another UV Set /
Step 8 - Apply UV Set / Rename UV Set ( then I need to click on UV path to gain access to export options ) / Export  ( Screenshot 02 )
Step 9 - Import into DAZ Studio ( so far so great no scale issues ) - the PolyGroups remain, the Surface matches the UV ( Screenshot 03 )

From here, I just need to go back into Geometry Editor and recreate new surface groups from the polygroups.
That way users can use one UV map and textures but modify each region surface colour or add different materials.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So everything working great so far....but I still run into that one small issue.


The original mesh that is still sitting in ZBrush - if I use that to create some morphs and try and apply that to the new mesh exported from 3DCoat
ZBrush to DAZ it will not recognize the new mesh. They have identical vertices / poly count.

ZIP File attached:
LI GorgonMask 2024 ( exported from DAZ )
LI GorgonMask 2024 3DC ( exported from 3DCoat )


It's minor thing right now because all I need to do is send the new mesh to Zbrush and create morphs from that.

Here's where it could become a problem though. I have been working on an Ultimate Hair Skull Cap for Genesis 9 that has a whole bunch of morphs that allow for the hair that is fitted to be further adjusted along the scalp, slide morphs. Lets I wanted to update the UV I am stuck ( not saying that would happen in this case just an example )

Can you see any flaws in my workflow...what have I missed?

If I re-imported the original exported mesh from DAZ back into DAZ the morphs will work.
Just something happening to the exported mesh from 3DCoat.

GorgonMask_Metal.png

Screenshot 01.png

Screenshot 02.png

Screenshot 03.png

LI GorgonMask 2024.zip

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As a side note too....personally I'd love a way to make perfectly symmetrical UV's and controlled island rotations with alignment.
Comes in handy adding additional details in Photoshop for repetitive areas. 

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We got a pre release to try,
Could you please beta test it ?
Import on retopo/modeling, move faces using symmetry on - export to zb/daz -> look at for errors
- Demo soldier = model for ZB test
Thanks

//edit: I forgot to add the ZB model w/polygroups

Andrew answer:

Hi!

I made some changes, and now retopo/modeling exported mesh should keep the order, please check the 20-B2 build:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/196T4Xb1FRNscySncqlfsbQjlOSRCtnf7/view?usp=drive_link

DemoSoldier_1-ZB.obj

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Hi Carlson,

Thank you...testing....

First test.
Tested on the same Gorgon Mask following my previous steps above, even went into check first to make sure Don't group vertices per objects in OBJ files (like ZB) was still on.

Second test:
Tried exporting Genesis 9 Base figure with NO eyes, mouth etc.....at its lowest subdivision level.

Genesis 9 Base Mesh file size: 3.89 MB 

I get the following message: Mesh Poly count is too large etc.... ( so I hit accept anyway but nothing imports via the Model Room )

Works fine if I import the mesh for Poly Painting.

Screenshot 2024-06-18 19.40.31.png

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I get the following message: Mesh Poly count is too large etc.... ( so I hit accept anyway but nothing imports via the Model Room )
 

Andrew said: It has soft limit - it slows down gradually.

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Imported model from ZB

image.jpeg

Modeling room > Move some faces/vertex > export back

Import into same subtool on ZB, no errors

image.jpeg

polygroups are the same

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Thank you :)

I'm going to uninstall this version and re-install 2024.20 and test the Genesis 9 base mesh.

Okay....2024.20 same message yes, but file Genesis 9 Base file imports this...created morph....exported.
Created in DAZ no problems.

So now the big question, why are some of the meshes I'm creating in ZBrush causing issues.



 

Screenshot 2024-06-18 19.58.09.png

Screenshot 2024-06-18 19.59.53.png

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Tested....

ZB Demo Soldier ( deleted lower Sub-Ds ) < GoZ to DAZ < Exported from DAZ < Imported into 3DC Model Room < Export Mesh with sculpt < created morph in DAZ

SUCCESSFUL

Sigh...so now I need to look at these other meshes.

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2024.20 Success with Mask Morph

GoZ to DAZ ( but no polygroups ) < DAZ Export < Import 3DC Model Room < Export < Create Morph

SUCCESSFUL

Getting closer....

Screenshot 2024-06-18 20.25.37.png

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- Step 2 - Goz to ZBrush so I can quickly create polygroups. 
Why not create polyg on 3dcoat modeling ?

- A useful function on import would be to allow the original UV mesh to be maintained while keeping the PolyGroups too. 
reported

//edit

The challenge is to be able to do all the daz<>azrush steps in 3DC.

Respect uv, create polygroups, create morphs, export the polygroups to create surfaces... etc.

 

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Could you please try saving g9 on v 2024.20 and load it on 2024.20B2

send me by PM the gen9 mesh so Andrew can take a look

thanks

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Posted (edited)

Messing around right now, I've even got the Mask working...trying to find out what was breaking.

"The challenge is to be able to do all the daz<>azrush steps in 3DC" - That would be great. There are so many ways to quickly create polygroups in ZB but generally, I use the Select Brush to hide parts of the mesh and then just press Group Visible. You can do the same thing in DAZ its just a bit harder and slower to work with.

No probs :)

Edited by Laticis
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testing create new polygroup in 3DC moving model faces

image.jpeg

Mesh > export

Import 3dc exported model into daz

polygroups is loaded, I used it to create new surfaces, done

image.jpeg

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Next step

From polygroups on modeling room

image.jpeg

Bake to paint room to add texture maps

image.jpeg

with this settings ?
do you need to keep the original udims? 

image.jpeg

 

image.jpegimage.jpeg

Or separate materials ?

image.png

image.jpegimage.jpeg

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Okay....just so I know I am not going crazy please LOL

There are two files in the ZIP - A Zbrush File and an OBJ File that has UVs and Polygroups Exported from ZBrush at Scale 100

Test / Issue 1:
I am having visibility issue trying to import this into 3DCoat 2024-20-B2, it appears to import but nothing shows. ( that seems to be hit and miss atm )
Originally I exported as Scale 1 and thought that might have been an issue.

Test / Issue 2:
Import the LI{20}GorgonMask{20}2024 into DAZ Studio. ( this way we get poorly named polygroups )
Open ZBrush file, sculpt mesh to create a morph and then GoZ ( Update Existing Object ) to create said morph. ( It should work well )
Next, Export the mask base mesh from DAZ to create as a new OBJ.
Import into 3DCoat Modeling Room, update UV's, export out.
In Studio, delete the original mesh...import the new mesh with update UV's
Inside of Zbrush - Goz the originally create morph.

I have no luck on my end.




 

LI{20}GorgonMask{20}2024.zip

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Ooh, regarding these questions I don't know sorry...it's still an area I am confused about and haven't done any testing on:

do you need to keep the original udims? 
Or separate materials ?

My initial guess would have been Separate Materials - BUT - after inspecting the textures folder it could be the UDIMS


 

Capture.PNG

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