new video possibilities Zbrush 3.5

[AbnRanger]

@AbnRanger

I'm a little bit tired of your ongoing cheesy ZB marketing flaming thing... I mean are you serious? The only thing they've done is posting some vids in their forum! No big badaboum! They can post as much as they want in their forum, they can make hours of vids of every single feature they've implemented, so we do in this forum! As I said many times before...please stop this! Be fair!

Rene

So...just where do you find (instructional) videos here with background music, heavy laden with marketing hype? If you're tired of hearing it, it's because you're such a ZBrush fanboy you can't stand any criticism of it. Maybe I'm tired of you coming here to promote ZBrush when this is not a ZBrush forum...or haven't you noticed? It's insulting to Andrew for you and others here to promote one of his rivals the way you have and do.

[polyxo]

It's insulting to Andrew for you and others here to promote one of his rivals the way you have and do.

You have very strict criteria of what you consider adequate content for this forum.

In the sake of your health: Please don't also be insulted for Andrew and other people too!

At best will I do not see the "promotion" you are talking about.

I consider it completely normal and also positive to also have a look at and analyse

what other Software makers have to offer.

[cuffins]

So...just where do you find (instructional) videos here with background music, heavy laden with marketing hype? If you're tired of hearing it, it's because you're such a ZBrush fanboy you can't stand any criticism of it. Maybe I'm tired of you coming here to promote ZBrush when this is not a ZBrush forum...or haven't you noticed? It's insulting to Andrew for you and others here to promote one of his rivals the way you have and do.

If you have read my post carefully, I did post suggestions to make 3DC a better app. That's the only reason I post ZB stuff here! To learn from the best and make 3DC better. So what I'm asking you is what is your intension here? Fight against others? Flaming users with your cheesy fanboy phrases? Man, I owning two licences of 3DC, Win and Linux, that means I SUPPORT this App as much as I can and I spend much time in thinking how this app can get much better. Your aggressive posts will stop any serious discussion about existing features in other apps and the possibility of implementing them in 3DC. If you read carefully, this is not my point of view only.

Regards, Rene

[AbnRanger]

You have very strict criteria of what you consider adequate content for this forum.

In the sake of your health: Please don't also be insulted for Andrew and other people too!

At best will I do not see the "promotion" you are talking about.

I consider it completely normal and also positive to also have a look at and analyse

what other Software makers have to offer.

Maybe you don't see the problem with it, but put yourself in Andrew's shoes and maybe you'd see it more clearly. What if you owned, let's say an Apple Store...and you had customers and prospective customers standing around in your shop yacking it up at how great the new PC's were looking?

This just shows how rude some of you are....you think nothing of it, but your talk LITERALLY can hurt sales. People checking out the demo DO come here. If you want to gush about how cool a competing product is take it over to their website. It's one thing to ask Andrew to add a feature that directly corresponds to something in another application, but let's be honest here...if you REALLY were doing that, you'd have placed the request in the appropriate section...not an off topic section promoting these cool new features.........in ZB. That's what ill-mannered people do....they show no concern for how their conduct might affect others.

If you think I'm over-reacting, how about those of you who can't take the slightest criticism about your beloved ZB without having your feelings hurt?

[polyxo]

If you think I'm over-reacting, how about those of you who can't take the slightest criticism about your beloved ZB without having your feelings hurt?

Yes, I do think you are way overreacting. This Apple store example doesn't work for me.

And of course you could say whatever you want about Zbrush: I don't use or own this package.

I actually find insulting to assume that Andrew is primitive enough not to tolerate discussions about

other interesting Software in his forum. I'm sure he is well above such things and finds Zbrush an

interesting package too.

Get real man and don't waste your time with speculations on what other people might think.

They can speak for themselves.

[AbnRanger]

Yes, I do think you are way overreacting. This Apple store example doesn't work for me.

And of course you could say whatever you want about Zbrush: I don't use or own this package.

I actually find insulting to assume that Andrew is primitive enough not to tolerate discussions about

other interesting Software in his forum. I'm sure he is well above such things and finds Zbrush an

interesting package too.

Get real man and don't waste your time with speculations on what other people might think.

They can speak for themselves.

It doesn't matter what he "allows" or not...it's real simple. It's very ill-mannered to go to someone's forum and speak glowingly of a competing product....period. I know Newtek has a clear policy against it on it's forums even though they are rather lenient. I remember one of the staff stating in no uncertain terms that they frown upon that, as they are paying for the forum and to allow people to use that to promote other products is a violation of forum rules. I'm sure Andrew has a similar policy...even if he doesn't enforce it strictly. He shouldn't have to. IF YOU RESPECT ANDREW'S HARD WORK AND EFFORTS TO GIVE YOU TOOLS YOU ASK FOR...STOP USING HIS FORUM TO PROMOTE HIS COMPETITORS....as this thread is doing (ooh, ooh....look at these cool new features of ZB 3.5!!!)

You should have the good sense to acknowledge that at best it's bad form, and at worst insulting and disrespectful to come here starting threads about how cool Andrew's chief competitor is. There are plenty of forums to do so....just not here. You can try and rationalize software piracy too, but it doesn't make it right. Trying to excuse bad manners speaks more about your character than it does for me to say something.

[Unleashed]

It doesn't matter what he "allows" or not...it's real simple. It's very ill-mannered to go to someone's forum and speak glowingly of a competing product....period. I know Newtek has a clear policy against it on it's forums even though they are rather lenient. I remember one of the staff stating in no uncertain terms that they frown upon that, as they are paying for the forum and to allow people to use that to promote other products is a violation of forum rules. I'm sure Andrew has a similar policy...even if he doesn't enforce it strictly. He shouldn't have to. IF YOU RESPECT ANDREW'S HARD WORK AND EFFORTS TO GIVE YOU TOOLS YOU ASK FOR...STOP USING HIS FORUM TO PROMOTE HIS COMPETITORS....as this thread is doing (ooh, ooh....look at these cool new features of ZB 3.5!!!)

You should have the good sense to acknowledge that at best it's bad form, and at worst insulting and disrespectful to come here starting threads about how cool Andrew's chief competitor is. There are plenty of forums to do so....just not here. You can try and rationalize software piracy too, but it doesn't make it right. Trying to excuse bad manners speaks more about your character than it does for me to say something.

Then close this subforum. Honestly I see 3dc users promote 3dc over at the pixologic forums & the discussion has been quite civil until now. As of now I see no rules saying not to be able to discuss competitors & I dont remember seeing Andrew forbidding such discussions. If in the future he happens to do so, fair enough. Until then you should get off your high horse, because its doing nobody any good here.

[AbnRanger]

Then close this subforum. Honestly I see 3dc users promote 3dc over at the pixologic forums & the discussion has been quite civil until now. As of now I see no rules saying not to be able to discuss competitors & I dont remember seeing Andrew forbidding such discussions. If in the future he happens to do so, fair enough. Until then you should get off your high horse, because its doing nobody any good here.

If you want to discuss the merits of ZB or MB you know as well as I do there are more appropriate places to do so. No high horse...I'm just going to speak my peace as long as folks like yourself refuse to show some common manners. I respect Andrew too much too sit idly by while folks routinely undermine his hard work by promoting competing products here.

You have no idea...and obviously don't care in any case, whether your promoting of ZB or MB influences prospective customers from purchasing 3DC and choosing to go with a competitor's product....based on knuckle-headed threads like this gawking at ZB's new "Cool" features. People can come on here and see threads titled like this one, watch the video and decide they prefer that product over Andrew's. When they do, they aren't going to broadcast it here publicly....nevertheless, Andrew loses a sale. But you obviously don't give a damn one way or the other...and that's why I'm speaking up. It's no different than if your spouse brought a "Friend" over for dinner, and started gushing over how handsome he is and how he's a better provider than you, etc., etc...

If you still don't have a clue as to how much harm you can bring to Andrew's efforts, then that speaks volumes about your character. It takes a real low-life who knows that their promotion of 3DC 's competitors have great potential to adversely affect sales of the product, and yet do it anyway...because Andrew is too nice of a guy to confront you. Well, if you want to act rude and disrespect the man, you should know I'm not so nice. So, at Siggraph, you think it's "OK" to go over to Andrew's booth get on his computer and start showing ZBrush 3.5's new stuff? Pretty stupid, right? THAT'S EXACTYLY WHAT THIS THREAD AND OTHERS LIKE IT DOES!!! No difference. This site IS Andrew's year round booth...if I were there in person, I'd show you to the door myself.

You call it what you want, but if you're going to be a hard head in excusing such disrespect, I'm going to be equally tennacious about calling you out. You can put me on your ignore list if you need....but I'm not backing up one inch. This kind of conduct has gone on long enough, and I'm not going to be silent cause you don't like it.

[cuffins]

One of the admins should end this immediatly!!!!

[AbnRanger]

One of the admins should end this immediatly!!!!

And every thread that promotes 3DC's competitors should be deleted promptly. I'm utterly shocked at how disrespectful some of the folks here can be. We are not talking about a perceived Evil corporation like Autodesk....we're talking about Andrew, who works his fingers to the bone to reply to our requests...and you want to callously slap him in the face by undermining his sales with ZBrush lovefests, right here...right in front of his face? It's downright disgusting, quite frankly.

[cuffins]

And every thread that promotes 3DC's competitors should be deleted promptly. I'm utterly shocked at how disrespectful some of the folks here can be. We are not talking about a perceived Evil corporation like Autodesk....we're talking about Andrew, who works his fingers to the bone to reply to our requests...and you want to callously slap him in the face by undermining his sales with ZBrush lovefests, right here...right in front of his face? It's downright disgusting, quite frankly.

Yeah, and let's go over to Pixologic and Autodesk and all other 3D App developers and kill them all! Ban all users in this forum who are talking about other apps! Delete every single thread that "promotes" 3DC competitors...That means...this forum will be mostly empty and you will be alone...what will you do then? Talking with yourself? That's what you will do in the future if you're going on with this kind of speech.

A last comment, you seriously should think about...The only reason the threads talking about other apps are hot for such a long time, are your comments and the following discussion. So may be you are the biggest ZB promoter over here...

Some of the Admins should stop YOU!

For me this was my last answer of one of your posts...don't waste my time any longer...

Don't hate...go create...!

Rene

[AbnRanger]

Yeah, and let's go over to Pixologic and Autodesk and all other 3D App developers and kill them all! Ban all users in this forum who are talking about other apps! Delete every single thread that "promotes" 3DC competitors...That means...this forum will be mostly empty and you will be alone...what will you do then? Talking with yourself? That's what you will do in the future if you're going on with this kind of speech.

A last comment, you seriously should think about...The only reason the threads talking about other apps are hot for such a long time, are your comments and the following discussion. So may be you are the biggest ZB promoter over here...

Some of the Admins should stop YOU!

For me this was my last answer of one of your posts...don't waste my time any longer...

Don't hate...go create...!

Rene

Once again, it's so simple a caveman can do it.

Take your ZBrush Lovefest somewhere more appropriate for that discussion. IT DOES NOT BELONG HERE.

See now, wasn't that easy? I knew you could do it. You can talk all day and night with your ZBrush fanboy comrades either on Pixologic's forums or a host of O-P-E-N forums....like CG TALK. Talk until you're blue in the face...no worries. But the ZBrush parties don't belong on Andrew's own forum. You KNOW that....you just don't care. The reason I'm in your grill is because you don't. After all, the more 3DC succeeds the more tools and improvements I get in the software I invested in (even if it's a small one financially). If it struggles and he is forced to go out of business, then no more goodies for me, you see. So...yes, you mess over Andrew, you mess me over too, to some degree.

Flaunting ZBrush and Mudbox's wares here is totally uncalled for, and every time someone does it, you're going to hear from me...so keep acting ill-mannered, and I'll get ill will you over it. I can be as nice and polite as the next guy, but I can also be fiercely loyal to family and friends. I respect Andrew so much that I'm willing to defend him. You just keep on undermining his work and disrespecting him, and we'll keep butting heads. Cheerio.

[Frenchy Pilou]

Some new videos from the ZClassroom about new Zsphere and noise (16)

We have now 2 very strong progs for make volumes 3D Coat and ZB

[jedwards]

Flaunting ZBrush and Mudbox's wares here is totally uncalled for, and every time someone does it, you're going to hear from me...so keep acting ill-mannered, and I'll get ill will you over it. I can be as nice and polite as the next guy, but I can also be fiercely loyal to family and friends. I respect Andrew so much that I'm willing to defend him. You just keep on undermining his work and disrespecting him, and we'll keep butting heads. Cheerio.

You should probably get busy backtracking to find all those old threads that helped contribute to the development of 3dc so you can pollute them as well.

You are completely over reacting to the original intent and postings of this thread and going way overboard trying to prove you are right when several people have already agreed collectively that you are are not. I didn't want to participate in this but since you are planting your flag and declaring war with people I'm going to, simply to add to the numbers that disagree with you and hopefully drive the point home.

It's not about being rude or inconsiderate. It's about seeing what the competition is doing. Andrew has stated before that he is not a zbrush user - even if he was I doubt he has the experience nor awareness of everything it offers. What better way for him to see what people are asking for or interested in than a demonstration video of competitive features? You really think 3dcoat would be half of what it is today without zbrush? You're fooling yourself if you think it would be. Tons of requests have gone in that come directly from zbrush users or exposure to zbrush features. It would be hypocritical to put the blinders on now and pretend like the competition didn't exist when this program is succeeding because of the competition and andrews ability to rapidly implement similar features that people ask for.

I need to ask you how long you've been following this software and what goes on in this forum, because it doesn't seem like very long despite your join date. If it had been you'd know yourself just how important zbrush, among other programs has been in moving this software forward.

I'm pretty sure that everyone here is quite appreciative of the amazing effort andrew has put forward thus far. In fact I'd bet money on it. For you to declare otherwise from some high moral perch is rather insulting to them. The fact that you feel that way really shows you don't understand the spirit of this community and how much that has contributed to andrew's efforts and the software we are using today. Without the constant feedback and discourse between andrew and the user base I really doubt the software would have come so far in so short a time frame. Much of that involved discussion of how things are done in other software.

Bottom line is that andrew has nothing to worry about. His software is turning heads and gaining momentum even as the competition rolls out new versions. He certainly doesn't need you or anyone else to champion his ego.

And don't use Newtek as a comparison here. It's not even remotely close. They have a product that fell behind while competitors leapt forward. It's no wonder newtek's forums got out of hand with all the disgruntled users and people asking for LW to be more competitive.

From what I see you are the one being disruptive and stirring the pot. How you think that could be helpful or supportive of Andrew and his work is beyond me. Keep your 'fierce loyalty' out of this and don't get emotional about software. Andrew is not your friend, nor your family. You are just a user of his product. Reality check!

[AbnRanger]

You should probably get busy backtracking to find all those old threads that helped contribute to the development of 3dc so you can pollute them as well.

You are completely over reacting to the original intent and postings of this thread and going way overboard trying to prove you are right when several people have already agreed collectively that you are are not. I didn't want to participate in this but since you are planting your flag and declaring war with people I'm going to, simply to add to the numbers that disagree with you and hopefully drive the point home.

It's not about being rude or inconsiderate. It's about seeing what the competition is doing. Andrew has stated before that he is not a zbrush user - even if he was I doubt he has the experience nor awareness of everything it offers. What better way for him to see what people are asking for or interested in than a demonstration video of competitive features? You really think 3dcoat would be half of what it is today without zbrush? You're fooling yourself if you think it would be. Tons of requests have gone in that come directly from zbrush users or exposure to zbrush features. It would be hypocritical to put the blinders on now and pretend like the competition didn't exist when this program is succeeding because of the competition and andrews ability to rapidly implement similar features that people ask for.

I need to ask you how long you've been following this software and what goes on in this forum, because it doesn't seem like very long despite your join date. If it had been you'd know yourself just how important zbrush, among other programs has been in moving this software forward.

I'm pretty sure that everyone here is quite appreciative of the amazing effort andrew has put forward thus far. In fact I'd bet money on it. For you to declare otherwise from some high moral perch is rather insulting to them. The fact that you feel that way really shows you don't understand the spirit of this community and how much that has contributed to andrew's efforts and the software we are using today. Without the constant feedback and discourse between andrew and the user base I really doubt the software would have come so far in so short a time frame. Much of that involved discussion of how things are done in other software.

Bottom line is that andrew has nothing to worry about. His software is turning heads and gaining momentum even as the competition rolls out new versions. He certainly doesn't need you or anyone else to champion his ego.

And don't use Newtek as a comparison here. It's not even remotely close. They have a product that fell behind while competitors leapt forward. It's no wonder newtek's forums got out of hand with all the disgruntled users and people asking for LW to be more competitive.

From what I see you are the one being disruptive and stirring the pot. How you think that could be helpful or supportive of Andrew and his work is beyond me. Keep your 'fierce loyalty' out of this and don't get emotional about software. Andrew is not your friend, nor your family. You are just a user of his product. Reality check!

Thanks Professor, but coming here to lecture me as to what opinion I can and cannot have is not your prerogative. This is a forum for a specific commercial product (3DC) and you should know better than to confuse it with an open forum, like CGSociety and such. And no, it's not any different than Newtek...you keep making lame excuses, and none of them hold water. Again, coming here and having a ZBrush fanfest on 3DC's forum is out of line any day of the week. You wouldn't dare take over Andrew's booth at Siggraph and show the crowd ZBrush's ware's with Andrew's own equipment (maybe you would)...then why would you do that here?!!! IT IS THE SAME THING, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!!!

You talk about what ZBrush means...yada, yada, yada....swell. Take it to Pixologic's forum, then!!! As I stated before, it's one thing to place a request in the appropriate thread for a given feature that ZBrush or Mudbox may or may not have....but starting threads like this, blatantly promoting Andrew's competitor, is way over the line...and you ought to know better. Did no one teach you any manners when you were young? No one should have to remind you to have a modicum of decency.

But you're one of the chief culprits...and you think Andrew enjoys your posting ZBrush videos on his forum? He needs you to post them on his site for his education? Now that's funny right there....I don't care who you are.

Seriously, if you don't have anymore sense than that, then who are you to get on your soapbox and attempt to lecture me? You're in no position to do so...and what's more is the "number" of people you talk about are the very one's pulling such nonsense.

[philnolan3d]

This thread's getting a bit out of hand. Let's all try to tone it down a notch.

[polyxo]

This is a forum for a specific commercial product (3DC) and you should know better than to confuse it with an open forum, like CGSociety and such. And no, it's not any different than Newtek...you keep making lame excuses, and none of them hold water. Again, coming here and having a ZBrush fanfest on 3DC's forum is out of line any day of the week. You wouldn't dare take over Andrew's booth at Siggraph and try to show the crowd ZBrush's ware's with Andrew's equipment....then why would you do that here. IT IS THE SAME THING, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!!!

Hello Ranger,

I did not want to answer any more - your whole argumentation seems very dogmatic to me and completely inaccessible to any rational input.

I really see no chance to calm you down.

But here's a quick example which proves you wrong. A posting of mine in the Rhino newsgroup "blatantly promoting" 3DCoat.

http://news2.mcneel.com/scripts/dnewsweb.e...21723&utag=

Of course nobody at McNeel was offended and no fellow user felt like reminding me of decent behaviour. In the Rhino newsgroup one can freely

discuss any other program for as long as needed like this is is btw. the case in any other Forum I visit .

All of these are set up by the Software-companies.

If the Newtek guys are foolish enough to cut the word of their customers this is one thing...

But please don't get on the nerves of your fellow users here by trying to set up the same system as a missleaded single fighter without official mission.

Think of me and others what you want.. However - could your refrain from calling us ill-mannered and misbehaved?

You are also not in the position to tell us such.

[jedwards]

Ok I tried to talk some sense. Guess that didn't work too well. =]

I'm not the one on the soapbox here. You are. I thought that was pretty obvious. I'm in the crowd, ready to throw tomatoes. =]

Have fun with your mission!

[AbnRanger]

Hello Ranger,

I did not want to answer any more - your whole argumentation seems very dogmatic to me and completely inaccessible to any rational input.

I really see no chance to calm you down.

But here's a quick example which proves you wrong. A posting of mine in the Rhino newsgroup "blatantly promoting" 3DCoat.

http://news2.mcneel.com/scripts/dnewsweb.e...21723&utag=

Of course nobody at McNeel was offended and no fellow user felt like reminding me of decent behaviour. In the Rhino newsgroup one can freely

discuss any other program for as long as needed like this is is btw. the case in any other Forum I visit .

All of these are set up by the Software-companies.

If the Newtek guys are foolish enough to cut the word of their customers this is one thing...

But please don't get on the nerves of your fellow users here by trying to set up the same system as a missleaded single fighter without official mission.

Think of me and others what you want.. However - could your refrain from calling us ill-mannered and misbehaved?

You are also not in the position to tell us such.

Ok I tried to talk some sense. Guess that didn't work too well. =]

I'm not the one on the soapbox here. You are. I thought that was pretty obvious. I'm in the crowd, ready to throw tomatoes. =]

Have fun with your mission!

What makes no sense is for people in such a technical field to be so devoid of class and have no shame about zealously promoting a man's competitor on his own forum. Whether he jumps your case over it is irrelevant. This is Manners 101, and looks like both of you need remedial training. I guess you dropped that course in grade school, huh? Your mother never taught you any manners? Do you also sit at the dinner table, with your mouth full of food, and talk with your mouth wide open...and like the Nutty Professor movie, have a flatulation contest to see who leaves the table first? Never offered your seat to an elderly person?

It doesn't excuse your brazen lack of decency and common courtesy. There's NO defending it. Using a man's marketing vehicle to market his chief competitor demonstrate a whole new level of low. It's either downright stupidity taking over, or sheer callousness. If I was running a store and you came in talking up my competitor to other customers in the store, I'd show you the door so fast your head would spin. Stay classy, chaps

[kay_Eva]

yikes - it's okay if people want to talk about other apps here - although a little annoying. Just as I get annoyed on blender forums when people say, "Why isn't blender like Maya?" "If blender was like 3dsMax it'd be more professional"!

What bothers me is the tendancy for some users to want every app to be the same. Which is why making comparisions can be a little annoying.

But it's not like they are hurting 3dCoat. In fact they are doing more good than harm as we have those snazzy Drap and drop features as well as the improved curves, two of the main selling points of the latest zbrush release.

3dCoat is very competitive with the other sculpting apps. It doesn't have to run and hide from comparisons. And Andrew is a genius he doesn't just listen to anything people say, he takes the best of what they say, filtering out the rest and then implements that if he thinks he aught to.

or am I missing the point of the convo all together

[polyxo]

Don't mix things up AbnRanger:

The only person behaving indecent here, being impolite, shouting, calling people names, raising doubts on their maturity ... is you.

At that point I can't take you serious any more. Last word in this discussion.

[LJB]

For a software that I haven't paid for upgrades for in over 6 years I'd say pixologic is more than entitled to make their marketing as slick as they want. They already got me as a customer a long time ago so whatever it takes to get new ones is fair game for them.

As an existing zb user who has used zspheres quite a bit already this is pretty impressive stuff, and I didn't even listen to the voice in the vid. I'm just talking about what I saw. Zspheres are what I was using before 3dcoat as I wanted to find a way to have to do less polygon modeling up front. Voxels definitely trumped the old zspheres in terms of potential. But the new stuff looks as if it may just leapfrog voxels. I won't be sure until I use them myself though. Whatever flaws they do have I'm sure I'll find them. One thing I know I won't do is favor any app in particular due to customer loyalty or not having bought the other. I'll simply use what I think is the best tool for the job. Advantages of having both and not caring who wins any software wars.

Zbrush should very much be talked about in this forum. It is the only real competition to 3dcoat as far as sculpting goes. A lot of what is in 3dc now is there because zbrush users asked for it too.

Exactly, Some of the posters on this thread seem a little hypocritical to me. Too right other software should be talked about. This is how progress is made. In many ways I think ZSphere II are Pixologics stand againts the growing popularity of Voxels here. As there is a great potential for Topologyless sculpting. though they appear pretty ingenius I wonder what tax it puts on the hardware. Its still yet to be released so who is to know just yet. I just hope when it is it is as impressive as it looks otherwise there wont be the huge benifit over using the current ZSpheres and Unified Skin method I favour.

This to me is why the new improvement to the curve tool were so IMPORTANT as voxel sculpting is great But we had No way of Quickly getting the volumes into place so they could be sculpted further. So hopefully when Andrew has finished Ironing out all the little niggles we will have a Quick fire way of getting voxels where we want them so we can sculpt down our designs faster and just as efficiently as the old ZSpheres.

[Edit] Bah... what is the name of the thread that this topic is located under eh.... 'Off Topic & General CG related' ? Sorry did i miss the point?? Or the part where it says 'But not any other software that is being or is going to be developed to do with 3D' I wish that I had not paused my day to go back and Backtrack to read the rest of this thread. Put it this way, I do not see the threads topic as detrimental to this community or the Software, but more so the Hypocritical reaction it has Avalanched from it.

[JamesE]

What makes no sense is for people in such a technical field to be so devoid of class and have no shame about zealously promoting a man's competitor on his own forum. Whether he jumps your case over it is irrelevant. This is Manners 101, and looks like both of you need remedial training. I guess you dropped that course in grade school, huh? Your mother never taught you any manners? Do you also sit at the dinner table, with your mouth full of food, and talk with your mouth wide open...and like the Nutty Professor movie, have a flatulation contest to see who leaves the table first? Never offered your seat to an elderly person?

It doesn't excuse your brazen lack of decency and common courtesy. There's NO defending it. Using a man's marketing vehicle to market his chief competitor demonstrate a whole new level of low. It's either downright stupidity taking over, or sheer callousness. If I was running a store and you came in talking up my competitor to other customers in the store, I'd show you the door so fast your head would spin. Stay classy, chaps

I'll just let your own posts in this thread speak for themselves.

[AbnRanger]

I'll just let your own posts in this thread speak for themselves.

And I'll let your bogus excuses speak for themselves...It's N-E-V-E-R a "healthy discussion" to throw a party for Andrew's competitors' on his own website. No matter how well you try to dress it up...a pig is still a pig....and excusing such blatant disrespect reflects on your character...not mine. The only thing I'm guilty of is having the nerve to call you out for it.

[AbnRanger]

Don't mix things up AbnRanger:

The only person behaving indecent here, being impolite, shouting, calling people names, raising doubts on their maturity ... is you.

At that point I can't take you serious any more. Last word in this discussion.

If the shoes fits, Jack...wear it. You're a chief culprit and you're sore that someone has the nerve to take issue with it. Tough...better get used to it.

Let's break it down easy enough a 3rd grader could understand...ZBrush and Mudbox are Andrew's DIRECT competitors. Other software is fair play as it has little to no potential to harm sales of 3DC. DO NOT START THREADS THAT DRAW ATTENTION TO AND PROMOTE THOSE DIRECT COMPETITORS. Using Andrew's website to gleefully broadcast their new features IS absolutely detrimental to his sales, no matter how you try to slice it! That's a no-brainer, people. Those influenced by your efforts are NOT going to broadcast that you helped them decide to buy ZBrush instead. Lost sales happen silently, unnoticed. At the very least, you should give Andrew the benefit of the doubt, if you question whether it is in bad taste and potentially harmful to his sales.

Take it somewhere else more appropriate...this is the one place it does not belong. If there is a ZB feature you feel you must have, put it in the Features Request section. Is it really too much to ask? Honestly, put yourself in Andrew's shoes for a minute. You're fighting tooth and nail to gain ground on a firmly established company, and just as you get a little momentum on your side, you have these yahoo's on your site starting threads about your competitors new features....some of which makes your key new feature (voxels) less unique. Sure competition is going to happen, but stirring the pot right under Andrew's nose on the website he is paying for...is not only contrary to the purposes of this site and commercially harmful to Andrew, but it's very rude, unthoughtful and downright tacky.

He's undeserving of that kind of treatment, and it's quite funny how only the ZBrush fanboys are the ones thinking this is "acceptable" behavior. If I have to get testy with some of you to point out how low of a blow that is, then something is wrong here. You should have better sense and more respect than that.

[Andrew Shpagin]

Hi All!

In general I have nothing about competition. ZB promoting? I don't think it is problem to me.

Of course thanks for protecting my honour.

But my method is very direct - work hard and let strongest win. And I am not too weak in this field.

ZB strong in marketing, we are strong in development speed.

Both are strong in features. And - what is important - they both complement each other, at least on this stage of development.

Our marketing policy is not too strong, but now we are trying to improve it, hope you will see good promotion videos soon.

For now best promotion is happy customers. And it is much better then millions of banner-clicks.

And please, be patient to each other!

[Reactor]

Well said Andrew. One hammer for one type of nail, and one for another. Both Zbrush and 3DCoat are handy to have in the ol' tool box.

[MatPainter]

Hi All!

In general I have nothing about competition. ZB promoting? I don't think it is problem to me.

Of course thanks for protecting my honour.

But my method is very direct - work hard and let strongest win. And I am not too weak in this field.

ZB strong in marketing, we are strong in development speed.

Both are strong in features. And - what is important - they both complement each other, at least on this stage of development.

Our marketing policy is not too strong, but now we are trying to improve it, hope you will see good promotion videos soon.

For now best promotion is happy customers. And it is much better then millions of banner-clicks.

And please, be patient to each other!

I been visiting this forum for some time now and after reading this thread, I must say that your reply is disappointing. Your notion of "let strongest win" seem to be motivated by greed more than it is by a genuine interest to contribute to society. I liked reading in your home page that you are "worried about society's moral state", but unfortunately, some of your actions - which demonstrate complete disregard to moral and ethical concerns - speak louder than words. I guess all good things must come to an end:(

[philnolan3d]

Wow seems like you're reading into things to me. I've never seen anything of the sort from Andrew.

[Andrew Shpagin]

"let strongest win" is very different from "let looser die". It is symbol of the honest competition (at least in Russian language it sounds so).

It just means that true competition is good. It will stimulate development of both products.

I don't think it is related to "greedy". I have no purpose to capture and keep all market. It just sounds funny. And I want to be programmer, not owner of big corporation and make only administrative, management and marketing tasks.

And my main point is that posting any info about ZB can't be wrong to 3DC. Anyway everyone knows that ZB is a good program. And my method is "work", not "isolate".

And excuse if I was not able to express my thoughts clear enough.