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haikalle

Blender 2.83 Applink

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@haikare  I know why it seems somehow strange, to generate morph (edit in 3d coat and return it as shape key for mesh in blender) .

and As you said I usually make shape keys in blender.  (even though 3d coat retopo room edit is robust, I prefer edit in blender to make morph)

The main reason is, , I  usually render character which already made in blender.  (many shape key to change shape, with ctrl to expression which change facial bones) of course I like to make simple props  and texture with 3d coat from scratch too,,

so lets think,, now I have one already made character.   then plan to make some detail musculian texture and shape for the character.

Then I export mesh to 3d coat,  of course if I sculpt detail only, I need not edit mesh. (or work only in paint room), but eg I happend to add some muscle by sculpt in voxel room, then retopo mesh (which imported from blender) need to  follow current musculian shape.   then I can bake clean normal.

To use this normal map , of course I need to apply the normal map for the mesh  which I edit in retopo room (auto snap etc).  the normal map can not ift shape in blender any more.  Then If I return it to blender as new mesh,,, ( overwrite mesh ) it is destructive work flow. 

  I prefer "my edit about mesh  in 3d coat"  to keep as shape key, not hope to overwrite my character mesh in blender...

Then when I hope to change my character as muscular, I can use shape key + baked normal map. with keep all other morphs and texture sets.

Of course if I really hard edit,, it never pose well untill I adjust weight map again,, but to add some detail muscle,, I need to edit retopo mesh too.

then I hope to keep it as new shape for character... without overwrite original...

 

 

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I think, it almost work well!  then one thing I may hope to know is, 3d coat setting for import export when use this plug in. I understand, plug in auto set options of blender side  for export import. FBX,  then 3d coat setting is only matter. to  "mport" and "Open in original app." 

About these test, I do not import texture,,(so do not check texture options in blender)  then I see sometimes normal not import with smooth, or pivot point change then move down  when I up-date. 

and as your option, it overwrite UVmap with mesh  too. then it show somehow strange UDIM UV map with my node stting.  (repeat many tiny texture on maps)  Usually I keep original, then I can easy transfer UV in blender,. I think those things simply change how I set in 3d coat options. so hope to know which setting may best to overwrite mesh only.  

And If you can,,  I hope 2 things to more flexible.( when user  miss setting about options)

1 option,  only import mesh , or only import UV map.  (when change UVmap,  without we keep original,, correct  UV is a little bit difficult about UDIM tiles)

2 offer option, just import mesh as new object,  without overwrite.  (it is not matter how texture are applied, when user use this option,  user only need to get mesh of vertex position.  then user  can make shpe key if I need, without overwrite.    eg now we have 2 default button, "Transfer" and "Update", then I hope one more button  eg (import)

 

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I think, current FBX exporter (of 3d coat) can not export UV tile as it were. with both option.(export UVset as tiles on off)

I export mesh UDIM type UV as FBX from blender  ,then import it again to blender.  it keep UV tiles as same as before in One UV.

So I can confrim, blender FBX importer can keep UVset (UDIM type) 

then I  import it in 3d coat, as separate UVsets.   if I export it as obj, then import it in blender, it keep UVset as same as before. 

OBJ.JPG.970f1b5c3025aac8f8f74df0e551ae0c.JPG

but If I export mesh as FBX (from 3d coat)  then import it in blender,  I  see UV corrupted. (some UV tiles are merged as one vertex) just remein one or two UV tiles. 

FBX.thumb.JPG.9a4a9bcdc99e28adc0a9fc44e230295d.JPG

 

Edited by tokikake

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I test with monkey (separate 3 UVitiles in blender then arrange as UDIM manner) and to test easy, set material as UDIM tile name (1001, 1002, 1003)then just export, import blender and 3d coat.

What I found is, 3d coat can import as FBX with keep UV tiles when the FBX is exported from 3d coat.   and blender can import as FBX with keep UVtiles, if the FBX is exported from blender too. 

but blender can not load UV tiles correctly about  3d coat exported FBX :(  , though 3d coat can load UV tiles about blender exported FBX.(as UVset)

test please attached monkey FBX (which exported from blender , with 3 UVsets as UDIM  (in blender it is only one UV) ,and import to 3d coat.with use "import tiles as UV set" now  you can see it keep UV set as different tiles.   (so it cause no matter) 

monkey_import_fbx.thumb.JPG.c8977a87cc5982f3388ae07763aae757.JPG

 then export to blender as FBX and OBJ from 3d coat, and compare  how it work.    If I export mesh with UV from 3d coat, as FBX, UV tiles  corrupted. (I do not think  there is option to solve it) and it duplicate many material ,,

monkey_export_fbx.thumb.JPG.52c45b6001fe5984a6888144affb3099.JPG

 

monkey_import_blender.thumb.JPG.e4b39bb212d52fe8aa10f5305bdf72d2.JPG

I do not know Andrew can manage it,, (it can be said as blender side problem,, but blender developer may not agree it too,, because blender can read  fbx which blender exported,,)

I attached coatmonkey FBX  too.  which export from 3d coat. (the monkey)

it can improt  mesh to 3d coat without problem. (keep 3 UV set, and surface group with option "import tiles as UV sets" but can not import to blender, with keep UV.

==================

then If I export mesh as obj from 3d coat, it can keep UVtiles and material-slot (name slightly change, because blender material name add .004 etc,, ) . so I do not recommend obj,, but without blender full support FBX (at least 3d coat use ), I afraid, there may be remain issue. (and I do not think, blender can full support for other app FBX ,without there are many user request,,)

objimport.thumb.JPG.f1bb4f457f909dc14326a17274c70ce1.JPG

testmonkey.fbx

coatmonkey.fbx

Edited by tokikake
attach more image to comare easy

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@tokikake With monkey object Andrew fixed one bug this week in 3d-coats fbx that was giving an error. So I wait until I get hands upgraded 3d-coat version with the fix.

Yes,  I can see the Uv-tiling problem. I will write an email to Andrew and see what he thinks about it. Thanks again for reporting this :)  

Edited by haikalle

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@tokikake Question about uv-tiling. If you leave "Import Tiles as UV sets" OFF it will sets uv-sets name material. To me it's a little bit more clear way than settings this ON, because can 
play with materials name and not the 1001,1002, etc. Are you okey with that plan too?

Edited by haikalle

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The only reason I may hope to use the option, is about current meshes (daz import figures) have many material, which are located in same UV tiles. 

But to edit it in 3d coat,, too many material just cause issue for me,, and  as you said, 3d coat after all generate UVset as same number as material groups.

eg hand and hand-nail are located in same UV tiles. but as you said, 3d coat just duplicate UVset of both. then generate texture for nail and for hands 

Though it only matter about those mesh, so  to be frankly said, do not care about it ^^

But even though I use your recommend option, after export as FBX, I just see, UV verts are merged which option I used . 

basically we may need not use UDIM tiles..  merge UV island as one,, then set up- texture nodes in blender,, with each matrial slot,, it not cause problem.

when we select the slot,, it show selected UV, and texture applied only for the material slot when render. 

But I saw when export as FBX,, without the UV set option,, UV corrupted in blender too, merge as one vertex about some part,,

I do not know, this problem solved if I  import mesh to 3d coat, with your suggested way, (most of case I prefer it,, it only matter about some mesh which use many material groups but  keep same UV tiles. eg daz figures have almost 14  or 15 (maybe) material  group.but UVtiles are 1001 to 1008 for some generation figures.. 

slot.thumb.JPG.afd8863f89bf8e5c62f97afb893cffc3.JPG

 

Edited by tokikake

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And I apreciate, if Andrew try to separate material group and UVtiles as true meaning ^^; though for me,, I may better learn more untill request many things.

Actually  I do not like blender material-slot (which we can not set name, but we just apply material with name,, "it is not material group" as true meaning,

then it often cause problem to apply or exchange material sometimes very annoying   ^^;)

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Thanks for remainding about this 19 slots <---> 8 UV sets. And I agree we need both (ON and OFF) settings available. I wrote an email to Andrew and I come back to you when 
I get respond. 

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5 hours ago, tokikake said:

About these test, I do not import texture,,(so do not check texture options in blender)  then I see sometimes normal not import with smooth, or pivot point change then move down  when I up-date. 



After Keep vertex index update I can get rid of pivot point moving to different place. I just updated the applink and now the pivot point should keep its position.

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@haikalle

now I am playing to texture then as you said,, yes I prefer both,, and if I need to choose, I may prefer your suggested way.

I improt cloth to somehow color more fancy texture,, with your plug in, then it only have one UVset with 6 material.

but If I import as UVset,, 3d coat generate only one material,,, I lost way to color belong to seprated group (zip or button etc ^^;)

merge material is not so hard work , but separate material in 3d coat, may take more time ^^;  anyway thanks you and 3d coat dev team. I really like this apricaiton and forum members. 

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Both are using same import settings and v 4.8.34 ?

 

Import.jpg

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1 hour ago, Carlosan said:

Both are using same import settings and v 4.8.34 ?

 

Import.jpg

Hmm. I will check this workflow:

Treat materials as separate textures = OFF
Import tiles as UV sets = ON

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if set so, it simply generate UV set for each UVtile and 3d coat seems auto name as 1001 , 1002,, then name surface group as 1001, 1002 etc.

the inverse, (as spearte texture =ON, tiles as UV set = OFF)  generate UVset for each material group (materials), then 3d coat use name for UVset and material group. (the count is same)

I remember, 3d coat can manage when I tweak UVset (eg merge as one), auto-adjust texture,,

but will it  work,, when we merge all UV set = material group of this cloth, (in blender it have only one  UV tile,, but separated materials  to paint easy in 3d coat with use import option) ,  3d coat can generate correct texture sets? 

clothUVset.thumb.JPG.7b2ad9bba08711b6982a0bc475a70f7a.JPG

Because I hope to generate only one texture for each map (color alpha etc) for this cloth. but I afraid, once I merge UVset (UV tile),  I need to make mat from scratch,,

If I do not merge UVset,, 3d coat will  generate all texture for each UVset,,  (actually it use too  expensive memory , ,,) so idally 3d coat support material group and UV set as sepaarte meaning..

 

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I merged these UVsets (material surface) as one in UV room,, it seems work, but once I merge,  all surface material group not work any more. these are empty..so one UV set and one material surface (named as merge)

It is OK to export texture, but  I can not edit material correspond to each material group any more)  without I use selection or mask etc,.. then return UVroom,,load UV ? etc    again ,,, then when export merge them again,,  not so flexible,, I think..

mergedone.thumb.JPG.55c1d55e9186d08d3cb9e159187e6c52.JPG

(I know it beyond ,blender  app link plug in  subject,, it may better, 3d coat offer way to separate material and UV set,,,,, I hope so)

 

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@tokikake The Uv-set issue it's Blender bug. If you import 3d-coat mesh in any other 3d app, uv maps looks just fine. So need to start to some work with blender fbx importer :(

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Need to wait Blender 2.8.1 to use uDim. Blender 2.79 or 2.8 dont support uDims.

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17 minutes ago, Carlosan said:

Need to wait Blender 2.8.1 to use uDim. Blender 2.79 or 2.8 dont support uDims.

Actually this is very interesting because if you export object from blender that has uDim uvs and then import the same file. It works. 

The main problem is that if I import blender mesh with 1 uv-set (has uDim) into 3d-coat. Everything works ok. You can paint textures. But when you export the mesh. 3D-Coat export the mesh
with 2 uv-set. So 3D-coat takes uDims and separate them into different uv-maps. And blenders fbx importer can not read that uv data that was created in 3d-coat. It dosen't mean that 3D-coat exports bad 
uv data because I did open the same mesh in houdini and maya and they showed separate uv-maps correctly. 

So the main question: Is 3d-coat allowed to modify uv-set and uDim.  In my mind it's okey that 3d-coat modify uv-data inside the app,  but if I don't change anything in uv-data in 3d-coat and when I export
the mesh then I expect that mesh uv data is the same with the mesh before 3d-coat. 

 

Edited by haikalle

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So The main problem (what I thought) is,  blender FBX importer.And I know, current blender not support UDIM as true meaning.

Though I can tweak material group , as same as  I show of monkey FBX,, (set material group correspond with UDIM tiles and name so) in blender,

then export  maybe work well..

But as you said already, after all blender FBX imported seems corrupt UV arrange I think.. I may test with merged UV ,with different material gorup name.

(1001, 1002, 1003)  without cross over UV . and all UV located on to 1001. 

 3d coat can import it without problem as UV tiles,, (with use option,), but I do not know, when export it as FBX, blender can keep UV. (merged island is OK,

but merged UV verts  is actuall problem,,)  if it not happen with FBX improrter, I do not care to edit material group in blender.

(So I often use copy,,),, thenn,, I say again,, if use obj this problem not happen ;) (So I have often seen blender FBX exporter problem sthough it is gradually imrpoved,, but,, I do not expect mcuh,, I simply think,,  blender FBX is not same as auto desk FBX,,)

 

 

 

 

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Not the option when we talk about blender license thing. Need other solution for Applink.

Edited by haikalle

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29 minutes ago, tokikake said:

So The main problem (what I thought) is,  blender FBX importer.And I know, current blender not support UDIM as true meaning.

Though I can tweak material group , as same as  I show of monkey FBX,, (set material group correspond with UDIM tiles and name so) in blender,

then export  maybe work well..

But as you said already, after all blender FBX imported seems corrupt UV arrange I think.. I may test with merged UV ,with different material gorup name.

(1001, 1002, 1003)  without cross over UV . and all UV located on to 1001. 

 3d coat can import it without problem as UV tiles,, (with use option,), but I do not know, when export it as FBX, blender can keep UV. (merged island is OK,

but merged UV verts  is actuall problem,,)  if it not happen with FBX improrter, I do not care to edit material group in blender.

(So I often use copy,,),, thenn,, I say again,, if use obj this problem not happen ;) (So I have often seen blender FBX exporter problem sthough it is gradually imrpoved,, but,, I do not expect mcuh,, I simply think,,  blender FBX is not same as auto desk FBX,,)

 

 

 

 

obj is just very limited. I really would not want to use it because I really think that if we want to supports future features (armature, verxtex maps, weight maps.... even shapekeys) then fbx is the right format.

But luckily blender code is all open so it's time to jump to explore blender fbx import-export code :)

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I test with this FBX (in blender, I locate all UV island in 1001 space, like this pic) but separate as material. (so 3d coat can load it as UVset) 

If I set texture node as "repeat" it work without problem (each material only use each part island UV,, so it cause no problem)

and it can be bake , and texture paint easy. (Of course I need to generate texture node for all material for blender cycles baking,,) so most of case I prefer it.

(without I hope to separate material more and more to change only eye edge easy,,,,) as you know it is not UDIM tile just separate as Material.

mergemonkey.thumb.JPG.7a80587c2bb529012a00d26b5aba9e1d.JPG

 

Then I export it to 3d coat as FBX then use the option "Treat materials as separate textures = On"  It auto separate each material as different UV tile

(it should wrok so,  or we can not paint  correctly  any more  ^^;)

mergecoat.thumb.JPG.cc0479db87e8882b49b4919a8ba74098.JPG

The problem is If I export this monkey with FBX from 3d coat, then load it in blender,, I use this option (only export mesh for test)

I have no choice , I need not Export UV sets as tiles , at all.  But need to export texture for each material. separtely. anyway about this test, concentrate UV only.

setting.JPG.75e8a19d140f3f1b5062189f034dae26.JPG

THen open in blender,,, 

fbximport.thumb.JPG.5699c1057260eb1388d3ff66da6a7640.JPG

 

Then I think, so when import FBX, if we can choose, not overwite UV,,  or offer option import UV and import mesh separately,,

without it,, after all, when import mesh, I think we see this issue, with simple mesh, (though I do not test more simple mesh, which only have one material group, and All UV island are clean arranged on to 1001 tile.

 

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