Jump to content
3DCoat Forums

10-10-10


Recommended Posts

In case anyone missed it there was a very interesting new LightWave 10 video posted yesterday (on 10/10/10).

http://www.newtek.com/ (you literally can't miss it)

Also an article on CG Society mentioned that many more videos are coming in the next few weeks, including one about the interaction between LW and 3DC/zb.

http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=5911

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

I wish I had the extra cash for the upgrade after watching that. I really like the looks of the vpr, especially since I don't have FPrime.

Greg

Personally, I'm glad to see Rob get things back on track. I've said before that the best thing Newtek could've done was to split the development team up...2/3's working on CORE and 1/3 updating/upgrading the the current architecture as much as possible. That way they can still keep a bit current until CORE is more fully developed. I think CORE is still about 3-5 yrs away from being a full-fledged, full-featured application. I also think it looks more like a professional application without all those default hokie colors in the UI (yes I know you can change the scheme yourself, but the default is the face of the application, and it looked like poo until now (in my opinion), and has a more standard medium-dark grey scheme.

I'm sticking with 3ds Max though, even though LW 10 is headed in the right direction and the VPR looks pretty sweet. iRay and integrated PhysX is already out for subscription customers, and it's GPU/CUDA acclerated (w/ Multi-Card support). I think each userbase has enough goodies to keep them happy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Rob indeed makes a big difference to the dev of newtek. He got vpr working in layout in a few months. But he's no miracle man and people have to be realistic about what the core will be capable of when its released. I would say its on the same path as modo which means more than 7 years just a modeller. Lol.

But layout with vpr is good and for people who dont own fprime it is a significant upgrade. For those that have fprime, the upgrade is pretty slim.

3dmax or maya is still a better bet imho if your projects require it. From a freelance standpoint, lightwave can do 90% of projects a one man army can produce.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Sure there's freelance stuff, but also all the movies and high end TV shows that weren't exactly done by freelancers.

If what people in the LA, UK area say about scarcity of lw jobs is any indication, which is true for japan too, majority of tv and film work is not done in lightwave. For the past year we have not worked with any lightwave based studio, tokyo is very small area filled with cg studios and most use 3dmax, maya. But we have worked with some lightwave based freelancers. Real generalist that can do everything.

FWIW our studio was lw based for 10 years but slowly swithced 2-3 years ago. I even saw the old parallel dongles laying around the office. Lol.

Dont get married to software.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never said the majority, but it is an awful lot, Just look at all the work being done at Zoic Studios and Digital Domain. Granted LW isn't their only tool, but they do use it heavily. Nick Digital uses only LightWave on all of their shows for another example. I'll use whatever works best, it just turns out that happens to be 3DC and LW most of the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

If what people in the LA, UK area say about scarcity of lw jobs is any indication, which is true for japan too, majority of tv and film work is not done in lightwave. For the past year we have not worked with any lightwave based studio, tokyo is very small area filled with cg studios and most use 3dmax, maya. But we have worked with some lightwave based freelancers. Real generalist that can do everything.

FWIW our studio was lw based for 10 years but slowly swithced 2-3 years ago. I even saw the old parallel dongles laying around the office. Lol.

Dont get married to software.

Personally, I don't buy all this "get things done in LW faster" business. I never ever hear specifics as to "How" it's faster...just vague generalities = fanboy speak. If there were any real substance to that, then there would be a larger number of studios using it. I'd rather model in Max than any application out there. I think FPrime was LW's saving grace for the past several years, and maybe that's one of the reasons people would claim the speed advantage, but there are now interactive renderers all over the place.

Fact is, talented and productive artists will crank out work fast no matter what they are using. I think LW 10 might encourage some former LW users (who have since switched elsewhere) to comeback, or many current users to stay onboard...but there is nothing there to entice users of other applications, in my opinion. I think LW's biggest competition is actually Blender, which has been dipping it's finger in LW's pudding for a few years now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I see a lot of is autodesks marketing dollars and non-disclosure contracts that won't let studios say what tools they actually use (aside from AD tools of course). I know at least 2 big studios that can't say they are using 3DC because of AD contracts, 3 or 4 more who can't say they're using LW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

What I see a lot of is autodesks marketing dollars and non-disclosure contracts that won't let studios say what tools they actually use (aside from AD tools of course). I know at least 2 big studios that can't say they are using 3DC because of AD contracts, 3 or 4 more who can't say they're using LW.

Well...I don't know about that. There are a few places that use LW somewhere in the pipeline...even ILM, I think. But having a few seats among dozens or a few hundred doesn't give Newtek a lot to hang their hat on. They started the whole rebuild process back in 2005 and the model was to replace entire sections at a time. When they announced CORE, I thought it was something they had been working on the whole time. It turns out, that was not the case. They essentially scrapped the previous plans and started from scratch. Not that I disagree with that direction, just that it was very late to be doing so. That hurt them. CORE needed to be more of a real replacement...not a concept/alpha stage product.

Again, I think bringing in Rob and putting some of the development into the legacy version of LW is the right way forward. I think Rob's interest in 3D Coat or perhaps more so in Andrew...was encouraging, but I wouldn't want to see 3DC bought out by anyone. Maybe offer 3DC in a bundle deal when LW 10 is offically released? It already looks like a module from LW, so it would be a natural fit.

I also think it would help Andrew get 3D Coat's name further into the marketplace if he met Newtek halfway on a bundle deal (maybe Newtek could license it per seat at roughly the same cost as the current EDU version?).

So, is there any difference in Modeler since 9.6, or is CORE what most LW users doing their modeling in?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not being a HardCORE member I can't say what's happening in Modeler, aside from what's public. It does look like there are some improvements coming. There must be if they're doing an entire video on Bandsaw Pro.

Yeah I saw that they were touting a whole video on just bandsaw pro, lol. It's pretty hilarious really. I didn't realize one could make a whole video on an outdated modeling tool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Contributor

Hey, I love bandsaw pro! But, yeah, a video on it? Maybe they've changed some things about it, and it's a really short video. Where's the link about it?

Now, back to watching the train wreck between l3d and sq... :blink:

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bandsaw Pro may be an old tool, but it's still better than any similar tool I could find when I was learning max. I'm assuming they must have improved it in some way, why else would they make a video about it for the LW10 release? Also the mention of it is a little vague, it says "Bandsaw / Bandsaw Pro, interface workflow". That might be one thing or 2, could be that the majority of that video is about workflow.

Greg: It's the CGSociety link in the first post:

http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=5911

BTW that link also mentions 10 videos over the next 10 weeks, presumably before LW10 ships. They've said it's shipping by the end of the year so it looks like LW10 should be out right at about Christmas time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Contributor

Bandsaw Pro may be an old tool, but it's still better than any similar tool I could find when I was learning max. I'm assuming they must have improved it in some way, why else would they make a video about it for the LW10 release? Also the mention of it is a little vague, it says "Bandsaw / Bandsaw Pro, interface workflow". That might be one thing or 2, could be that the majority of that video is about workflow.

Greg: It's the CGSociety link in the first post:

http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=5911

BTW that link also mentions 10 videos over the next 10 weeks, presumably before LW10 ships. They've said it's shipping by the end of the year so it looks like LW10 should be out right at about Christmas time.

Thanks Phil. Hard to think how they could improve it much.. it works really well as is. Guess we'll see. :)

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I never said the majority, but it is an awful lot, Just look at all the work being done at Zoic Studios and Digital Domain. Granted LW isn't their only tool, but they do use it heavily. Nick Digital uses only LightWave on all of their shows for another example. I'll use whatever works best, it just turns out that happens to be 3DC and LW most of the time.

Zoic studios - maya animation, lightwave renderer

Digital Domain - no lightwave. Ask Intution at newtek.

Nick Digital - yes all lightwave for their in house 3d department at nickelodeon.

But theres just more that were produced with maya or 3dmax not to mention vray makes most studios use vray based appz which lw doesn't have. Have you tried looking for lw studios or jobs in your area? Im guessing a few modelling jobs here and there which modo can do or even silo.

Even xsi which is the most modern 3d app can't dethrone maya and all their followers. Its about being sellable as an artist and knowing which app can be crucial to be included in a team. You can use whatever works best if you're alone, or a freelancer like I mentioned. But is that a wise choice 3-5 years from now?

Since you're not in HC, just like to say that put your expectation way down for this release atleast for core and maybe save your cash if Core is what you're excited about. Its way too early in development. For layout its all good. Speedier ogl, VPR, added color management, mdd baker like pointoven. I think that's worth the 495 upgrade for some. But others refunded having high expectations of core. My expectation of core is like modo. 7 years and still a modeller but will get there someday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny, Zoic says LW is half of their pipeline. When I was touring their studio they were showing us all of the animation they were doing in LW with Battlestar. I know guys that worked there on Serenity. One pointed out a shot that he said they tried to do it in maya and it just didn't work so they went back to LightWave.

Digital Domain has been known for their LW use for many years. I've been talking to their HR for the past couple months about working at their new location as a LW artist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I absolutely am, just as soon as I have the money. I do have FPrime and it's great but limited. It's hard to say which new feature interests me the most, better to say which is the least interesting. That would bne the intersense camera function. It looks really awesome, but I will probably never own one of those cameras myself. The biggest reason to upgrade for me is NewTek itself. Much like Andrew and 3DC they continuously bring me fantastic tools at a fantastic price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Funny, Zoic says LW is half of their pipeline. When I was touring their studio they were showing us all of the animation they were doing in LW with Battlestar. I know guys that worked there on Serenity. One pointed out a shot that he said they tried to do it in maya and it just didn't work so they went back to LightWave.

Digital Domain has been known for their LW use for many years. I've been talking to their HR for the past couple months about working at their new location as a LW artist.

My post above is the current condition not 5 years ago or 10 years ago. Lw is pretty strong in the ship animation department indeed.

Anyway I hope you get the job in a studio. It will make you more open minded to other appz and we can always be grateful for lw for getting us there.

Not sure if its still the case but for people who did upgrade for 395 and 495, the price for the next five upgrade will be the same respectively. I think skipping an upgrade wont get you penalized unlike other companies. Pretty good actually since I think I'll upgrade again in verion 3 or 4 when core itself would be useful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

I have no problem with using other apps, I just hate all the badmouthing of LightWave when it's quite good. I have worked in a studio before, all we used was LightWave and After Effects and one of our projects won 3 awards.

Phil...you badmouth other apps all the time, and we have a few deleted posts between us because of it. I'm convinced that many LW artists suffer from some sort of inferiority complex...it's like the application is hardwired to their psyche. It is what it is. A pretty good app that has it's share of issues...one of those being that it is still very long in the tooth, compared to what is available on the market.

Newtek is well aware of that, and that is why they are doing all they can to rectify the issue (with CORE). The problem is that the competition isn't waiting, and many former users aren't/weren't willing to wait either. But, as I stated earlier, I think LW 10 may cause some of those users to come back. I hope that Newtek made LW 10 a free upgrade to everyone who bought into their promises of what CORE would be. It doesn't appear to me that they got what was promised. The initial presentation was that CORE was slated to be more of a full-featured replacement of LW (classic). What they got essentially amounted to having to pay to be on the CORE Alpha/Beta team.

That's pretty raw on Newtek's part, and one reason I gave up on LW at that point. If they had offered some sort of bundle deal to upgrade (maybe Messiah or something), I might have considered it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We all know that you're paying for the program and the beta testing is a free bonus, it's an extremely old issue now. If that were not the case you'd be paying more when it's released. Actually if you choose NOT to beta test you pay more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

We all know that you're paying for the program and the beta testing is a free bonus, it's an extremely old issue now. If that were not the case you'd be paying more when it's released. Actually if you choose NOT to beta test you pay more.

So people who already HAD 9.6 paid for what when they UPGRADED with CORE? CORE....WAS slated to be released early Q1 of this year. Where is that now? Basically again...people were duped into paying for something Newtek was totally unprepared to deliver. They thought that CORE would be more of a full-fledged app and that the price would go up when released.

"Pay now, save later" is the selling point?...it looks like "later" won't come for another 5-8yrs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They paid for CORE, just like I will when I get my next paycheck. Prepared or not, the people are not paying any more because they wanted to beta test. The delivery date got pushed back. It happens all the time with software. Look at how far back ZB4 was pushed, and in that case people didn't even know what was going on. With LW they not only know, but they get to take part in it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

They paid for CORE, just like I will when I get my next paycheck. Prepared or not, the people are not paying any more because they wanted to beta test. The delivery date got pushed back. It happens all the time with software. Look at how far back ZB4 was pushed, and in that case people didn't even know what was going on. With LW they not only know, but they get to take part in it.

Just because you choose to name an Alpha stage product a "program" doesn't make it so. It is what it is, and to pretend differently makes it even more laughable. It's a rewrite that is in its very early Alpha Stages...period. Open Alpha/Beta testing should be nothing more than icing on a cake...not presented as the cake itself.

That's why I said those that invested in CORE last year should get LW 10 for free. I feel like they not only bought the silly spin Newtek put on it when they presented CORE (paying to take part in Alpha testing), but they didn't even deliver on their projected release date. Who should have to PAY for missed released dates? Why should those who got the short end of the stick have to pay yet again?

As for missing target release dates...you're comparing apples to oranges. Since when did Pixologic charge anyone for upgrading?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NewTek said CORE would not be complete from the very beginning...Period. However you are getting the next version of Modeler and Layout in addition to CORE. So you're getting a full update plus the early stages of CORE. People paid for modo way back when they knew it was only for modeling.

They DO get LW 10 for free because they already paid for it! Why would anyone pay more for something they already paid for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

NewTek said CORE would not be complete from the very beginning...Period. However you are getting the next version of Modeler and Layout in addition to CORE. So you're getting a full update plus the early stages of CORE. People paid for modo way back when they knew it was only for modeling.

They DO get LW 10 for free because they already paid for it! Why would anyone pay more for something they already paid for?

When Newtek first unveiled CORE there was no mention of a LW 10 while CORE was being developed. That's what I'm talking about...those that initially bought in over a year ago and didn't see CORE ever released as was communicated.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

AbnRanger , you're correct about Nt change in marketing. At firt it seemed iike Newtek was going to quite drop Lw classic, and give CORE a more development focus, but at the end they noticed it was a great error to drop classic Lw. So, when Powers got aboard, they actualòly changed strategy. Though, even when Jay Roth was at the helm of development,they were working on something called LWHC wich was classic Lw with CORE connecion (not hub). So, when Powers arrived they simply switched from LwHC to Lw 10, because its always classic Lw aniway, and development got further, adding technologies like VPR into classic Lw however.

At the end marketing was updated to Lw 10 with CORE technology rather than Lightwave CORE alone.

This being said, Lw CORE was NEVER marketed as an app to immediately substitute Lw classic it was always intended to give that to users as an add on, to use coupled to Lw, hopefully with some more interesting tools that those of Lw classic. This was the reason of why LwHC existed yet. But, CORE development got slow, even because of the Roth/Powers affair. Seems to me like something was wrong on how Roth decided to handle CORE/Lw development and that's my personal opinion on why Powers took his place.

Lw is actually a capable tool, in good hands. it is fast in many areas because of the workflows: modelling, and shading , but also lighting and rendering are pretty caplable. Lw main problem is in being old fashioned in some area, like rigging/animation and CA, and in some modelling tools too, especially now that there are apps like Modo and Silo, and, most important, problem is having an old structure, being actually 3 apps (modeler, Layout and hub communicating together, no nodal structure, no modifier stack/history, not very open SDK..)

Nt thought to give a future to Lw with CORE which is a total revrite from scratch to solve those structure issues and have a modern app.

BTW this doesn't mean you cannot use classic Lw and make wonderful jobs. For example Menithings, is making an entire feature movie with Lw alone, now , while they made Battle for Terra with Lw and Maya. They dropped Maya now and they're using Lw alone. But, Meni is a very very experienced and talented Lw artist.

Right now, Maya or 3ds Max give users mainly more deepness, more complete tools and job opportunities compared to what Lw can offer, while Lw can give them speedness and an overall understanding of what 3D is in general. That's why there are lots of general 3D artist using Lw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I have no problem with using other apps, I just hate all the badmouthing of LightWave when it's quite good. I have worked in a studio before, all we used was LightWave and After Effects and one of our projects won 3 awards.

Lightwave is quite good especially for one man generalist work where there is limited resources which is oneself. It fails in bigger projects due to its limited expandability and even third party support is so few... the good stuff..vray, krakatoa, fumefx, thinking particles, rayfire, zbrush applink and countless other third party stuff.

Anyway there's a rare lw job opportunity I read

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=319&t=928182

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...