3D Performed By Small Segment of the Population

[Psmith]

Don:

I'm glad both the local police and the military have sworn to protect me and my happiness and right to a peaceful life, (and every other citizen). But, I wish that was all they have sworn to do.

But, then again, who commands those that command the commanders? As a veteran, you know, when on active duty, you must follow orders whether you agree with them or not. What is lawful, right, or righteous has little to do with it.

And, nowadays, there seems to be no little disagreement, (even among enlisted men), as to WHO is in charge.

A recipe for chaos.

Greg

[Psmith]

And now . . . back to the topic in question.

What about 3D apps, their design, their interfaces and who they are designed to attract?

I believe there is a mistaken assumption made by software designers as to WHO is using them and WHO is buying them. Majority-wise, I mean.

If the statistics were known, (and some of them are), we would see that AMATEURS and ENTHUSIASTS form the bulk of the buying populace.

It's fine to appeal to the sensibilities of the elite, 3D professional clan, (in the long run), but WHO, from day to day, purchases and uses licenses of AFFORDABLE 3D software? What is more, WHY do they purchase and use it?

These questions, and their answers, should form the backbone of software design policy as well as software marketing policy. Right now, I believe the assumptions are all wrong.

How many professional 3D jobs even exist, today, that require knowledge of apps like 3D-Coat, Mudbox, Zbrush, Maya and the rest? Employed positions as well as freelance opportunities?

Far fewer than those who run webusinesses like CG Society are seemingly aware of. Where are the jobs and working opportunities that justify the existence of 1000's of CG schools? Well, hundreds. Or, well, scores of them?

These institutions exist on account of excess 3D market speculation - made before 2008. No such market exists. Software should not be designed for those hoping to enter the 3D production marketplace.

And, where is this marketplace, today - the production one, I mean? It is moving, largely, to the Orient - China and India. And, as we all well know - these populations are known for their honest, license purchasing habits.

You can surely see what the accurate answers to these questions are, can't you? If you have statistics that swear to the contrary, I'd love to see them.

Greg Smith

[AbnRanger]

Don:

I'm glad both the local police and the military have sworn to protect me and my happiness and right to a peaceful life, (and every other citizen). But, I wish that was all they have sworn to do.

But, then again, who commands those that command the commanders? As a veteran, you know, when on active duty, you must follow orders whether you agree with them or not. What is lawful, right, or righteous has little to do with it.

And, nowadays, there seems to be no little disagreement, (even among enlisted men), as to WHO is in charge.

A recipe for chaos.

Greg

Negative. That's a common fallacy. People who have never served do not have the faintest idea how closely a service member is scrutinized, and trained to "do the right thing." The armed services have very strict laws (UCMJ) in place, and in time of combat they demand even the lowest Private to disregard any order that violates terms of the Geneva Convention or UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Funny how many people are informed on matters like this by what they see from Hollywood (which has always had an Anti-Military Liberal bias). They always see the military in a bad light. Military courts are just as tough, if not more so than civilian courts...and violators will get caught and prosecuted. What's more, if a soldier gets punished in a civilian court (let's say for a DUI or something), they also face additional punishment under the UCMJ...so you're always walking a tightrope, regarding personal conduct....no matter where you are.

With that in mind, people who fuss about the military targeting innocent civilians don't have a clue in the world. They don't know what painstaking lengths soldiers and their commanders go through to avoid civilian casualties...placing themselves at great risk in doing so. I'd like to see some of these mouthy yahoos have to clear an entire village, house to house laden with booby traps, and snipers taking shots at you...not to mention IED's. Talk about your "Monday Morning Quarterbacks."

Now, just because YOU personally disagree with the motivation for a conflict, doesn't make the Military establishment worthy of disdain, nor it's mission. It's merely your opinion. I personally think the whole upheaval from the left about the Iraq War had more to do with using it as a vehicle to regain political power (that they lost)...evidenced by the fact that the same people (Bill and Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, etc.) were calling Saddam a dangerous menace, who must be dealt with, beforehand. They magically changed their tune for political gain.

Regardless of where one may stand...if we don't like who is giving the military orders, the way to deal with it is in the voting box. While the war was still being waged, the voters made their voice heard in 2004...to maintain the fight. If you want to point the finger of blame...it isn't ultimately Bush, but the voter. More people had different views than you and made it abundantly clear despite the liberal media waging a relentless campaign to sway opinion against it.

The way I see it, if you don't want American soldiers "cooking in your kitchen," don't compel us to do so...by high-jacking our airliners (to fly into our buildings), or play a cat and mouse game with us over WMD's, while offering large rewards to suicide bomber's families (in Israel), shortly after such a catastrophic event. We just might "connect the dots" and call your bluff....stockpiles of WMD's or not (the risk of getting technology and materials into the hands of terrorists posed a greater risk than any Chemical-Laden missile...9/11 showed Saddam the blueprint for striking at the US/West). War in Iraq was ultimately Saddam's choice to make (cooperate with UN Inspectors to show you have nothing to hide, or don't and face the music)...he rolled snake eyes.

[michalis]

Two scales on your thread Abnranger.

I agree with what you said about military service, I grew up in military campuses actually (my father became a general, he also was one of the few against hunda fascists and was prisoned for this), so I learned what democracy means under these circumstances. My one year military service was more peaceful LOL. I learned what violence means out of the army, not there.

I disagree on the second scale of your thread though, about US politics and Saddam. US and allies left him grow up alright, liked him attacking Iran and all the communities of west made the same mistake like with nazis. US citizens paid for this hard, its a little unfair.

As for hollywood, they still make money (vietnam became a gold mine after all)

For all these, there's one solution only. It is called pure direct democracy and we may have web, pcs, apps but most still believe that democracy can't work. We never tried pure democracy though. We still haven't IMO.

AbnRanger, all of us, we have to agree and disagree, we need it.

[Tony Nemo]

I really hope that someday humans will enjoy government by open source algorithm. It would be open to scrutiny by all without opportunities for corruption or hijacking by powerful constituencies. It may take awhile (5-6 centuries?) but designers may start earlier.

[Psmith]

Yeah, but what about software design and marketing? Don't you guys have any thoughts on this?

What is your perception of WHO is buying and WHO is using 3D software the most?

I do agree with Michalis about empire being empire, no matter who is currently running it. The United States started out as a completely isolationist nation - not wanting to expand their physical borders or their assets beyond their physical borders. Even though England was the Empire, at the time - we did not choose to join them in their expansionist methods, nor to oppose them. We simply wanted to be separate from their governance and influence.

All military organization and action in the U.S. was formed to defend its physical borders, the people who lived within them and the assets contained within them. It was a simple and a right way to proceed.

At some point, somebody determined that we must join with other nations against a common enemy, (WWI) - and after we took this road, there seemed to be no "going back". (WWII)

And, after both of these major conflicts were over, someone decided that we needed to act as an international police force. Once this decision was made, there also was "no going back".

And, here we are, today.

Greg Smith

[parel]

...wondering why more women are not working on CG projects?

[Tony Nemo]

"...wondering why more women are not working on CG projects?"

As the majority of games reflect masculine interest, the majority new interest in CG is masculine. Girls seem to like anime so this may serve as a conduit for CG interest of a more feminine cast.

[michalis]

Yeah, but what about software design and marketing? Don't you guys have any thoughts on this?

All 3d apps can serve well VG industry, hollywood and the same time artists that they simply try to discover the 'mystery of art'

3DCoat is a great app for art, any art. I noticed it exactly because of this. A more natural approach on this subject (voxels).

Zbrush is another great application, a different approach but again close to art. I never tried MB but it seems it has a similar approach.

Even cheap apps are very interesting (like groboto)

All base apps like max,maya,modo,LW,blender,XSI,C4D etc etc even SketchUp can serve well an open minded artist.

The most important for an open minded artist is the workflow, these inputs and outputs, this what I call "good taste on computing"

Its not a simple matter of importers and exporters, its when the developer understands these needs. Another open minded person and probably a kind of artist.

OK, Andrew is what I had in mind, 3DCoat may has a lot of bugs but it took me less than an hour to decide to buy it. To invest a little money and lot of work.

To have a concept sketch and try to materialize it in a 3d app isn't the best. Its not what I'm asking as an artist anyway.

A workflow where I can be direct and spontaneous, to be able to alter everything in the middle of processing, this is what I'm asking for.

A groboto base mesh, fast into zbrush, alter it in a way that I have to drop it to voxels (3dc). To do more sculpture here, to have a fast and clean retopo (artists need topology, the soul of 3d sculpting) to go back to zbrush (via blender sometimes) to feel free to do anything and not afraid to spend some more minutes to re-re-re-topo, to paint nice textures in zb-3dc-Ps etc etc, to render it in a decent render-app in the end. So many other possibilities, the more they are the best it is. Its like democracy I was talking about.

[digman]

Michalis, I got to say Amen Brother to your statement...

[spacepainter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Fzm1hEiDQ&feature=player_embedded

[Tony Nemo]

Bizarre manifestation of self serving misinformation (read a few of the comments). Mr Perkins no doubt has a book to sell. The mafia state in which his interview was held provides a cautionary tale in the recent reburial of Mr Kordakovsky (Sp?).

[wave of light]

Well, I think I'm actually one of those people who uses/has used 3D apps for something other than robotic/zombie/blood/ graphical type games/apps etc.

Because of copyright and the likes I can't really display much, but let me give you a breakdown as to why and what I used Lightwave, Flash and Photoshop for (oh, by the way, I wish I had used 3DC).

I worked for a small market research/social research company. Their main product/focus is customer feedback. I was asked to help create a fun environment in which young children (as young as 4 years old) would be able to give their feedback on key service provision (mainly hospitals, general practitioners, etc.) whilst still retaining their attention.

They wanted something 'innovative', 'different'. Having played with Lightwave and other apps, I decided to go down the 3D route.

I worked closely with children in a major international children's hospital, gaining their ideas for characters, animations and environments in which they would feel comfortable submitting their responses about the services they were/had received. I took these ideas, created concept artwork/characters and returned for feedback.

Once agreed, I turned the artwork into 3D fully rigged characters, so that they could be used for both promotional marketing material and as 2D Flash assets (my avatar is one of the characters).

It turned out that all of the characters had some weird thing about them, e.g. one character thinks he's a snail, but he's a slug with shell strapped to his back. Basically, because the ideas came from the minds of children and young people, other children and young people related to the product.

If I ever get the chance, I will post some of the concept artwork and the final renders and even one of the Flash animations included in the product.

I love films by Disney, Pixar, Dreamworks, etc. and maybe it's because they don't use killer robots, zombies, death, blood, etc. that I like them so much. Maybe it's also because I have two young boys and I've been able to enjoy the new films with them.

Where I agree with Greg, is that there does seem to be too much of the same stuff coming out... mainly horror, war games, etc. The problem is, there is a massive market for that type of special effect.

So, what would I show/feed a younger person wanting to get into cg, something like this (these artists have the right idea):

http://www.meetmeline.com/videos.html

Regards,

Ricky.

[AbnRanger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Fzm1hEiDQ&feature=player_embedded

Wow, things are so much clearer now! We should all just fly over to the middle east, get on a bus, and join hands with the poor little, misunderstood jihadists (who are sharpening their knives and praying for the opportunity to get their hands on and decapitate a westerner, today)....and sing "Kumbaya" in 3-part harmony....all while wearing tie-dye shirts, and paying homage to "Mother Earth?" It's so simple, really. We just need to UNDERSTAND that the people who want to kill us for religious conquest reasons, are really just desperate, out-of-work Joes. It's not the moral perversity of Western Culture that enrages them. It's all about sharing and caring, guys...

[artman]

Wow, things are so much clearer now! We should all just fly over to the middle east, get on a bus, and join hands with the poor little, misunderstood jihadists (who are sharpening their knives and praying for the opportunity to get their hands on and decapitate a westerner, today)....and sing "Kumbaya" in 3-part harmony....all while wearing tie-dye shirts, and paying homage to "Mother Earth?" It's so simple, really. We just need to UNDERSTAND that the people who want to kill us for religious conquest reasons, are really just desperate, out-of-work Joes. It's not the moral perversity of Western Culture that enrages them. It's all about sharing and caring, guys...

Im sure you are aware that the U.S massively armed and trained the talibans to guerilla warfare against the russians.

Now they are the invaders,so of course those guys will still fight the invader,this is what they were trained to do in the first place by the U.S.

You harvest what you sow.The U.S are sending soldiers to fight against soldiers they trained.

And when people think its mostly about religious or racial issues you will always find out its about money underneath.Wars cost a lot of money...and they are mostly about making money.

The "package" will always look its about religion,or freedom or retaliation but its always about money.But who would fight for other people to make money...nobody.

Who would loose their lives for some shareholders.Fomenting racial and religious hatred has always been used as a tactic to turn peoples on desired sides,various times in the history of wars.Even conflicts like genocides in Africa in places like Rwanda ..its not just a racial issue from within a nation,the strings always go far to much bigger countries like France,Russia or the US and lobbying interests.

Terrorist acts can have alot of impact on stock markets (ex:airline companies) so you can speculate on the markets using stuff like that and make a lot of money.

Its not black and white,there is a lot of gray in those conflicts.

[AbnRanger]

Im sure you are aware that the U.S massively armed and trained the talibans to guerilla warfare against the russians.

Now they are the invaders,so of course those guys will still fight the invader,this is what they were trained to do in the first place by the U.S.

You harvest what you sow.The U.S are sending soldiers to fight against soldiers they trained.

And when people think its mostly about religious or racial issues you will always find out its about money underneath.Wars cost a lot of money...and they are mostly about making money.

The "package" will always look its about religion,or freedom or retaliation but its always about money.But who would fight for other people to make money...nobody.

Who would loose their lives for some shareholders.Fomenting racial and religious hatred has always been used as a tactic to turn peoples on desired sides,various times in the history of wars.Even conflicts like genocides in Africa in places like Rwanda ..its not just a racial issue from within a nation,the strings always go far to much bigger countries like France,Russia or the US and lobbying interests.

Terrorist acts can have alot of impact on stock markets (ex:airline companies) so you can speculate on the markets using stuff like that and make a lot of money.

Its not black and white,there is a lot of gray in those conflicts.

Yeah...it's about money. We all know that Afghanistan is on the verge of overtaking China as the global trade leader, right? And Iraq? We've spent far more than we could every hope to recoup, in any silly conspiratorial oil-grab. All the conspiracy theories make for great for comedy, though. I remember sitting down at the table at a friend's house, and his in-laws were over...they were talking about how Bush devised this crazy scheme to blow up the towers on 9/11 and such. I honestly thought they were smoking dope or something, cause you HAVE to be either ridiculously stupid, or ridiculously high to entertain some of these stories/claims.

Just because the US HAD some relationship with Saddam and the Taliban decades ago, doesn't mean a thing. THINGS CHANGED...what part of that is too difficult to comprehend? You never heard the term "The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend"...it doesn't require a hidden conspiracy for dynamics to change. Libya got nailed by us, and now our relationship is considerably different. Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki...now we're allies.

What else you got? Oprah Winfrey is hatching a plot to assassinate Obama with cyanide muffins, and take over the presidency as the first black woman in office?

[artman]

Just because the US has some relationship withthe Taliban decades ago, doesn't mean a thing.

Not "some" Relationship...they friggin trained and armed those guys.

It doesnt mean a thing?...They did it for fun?

I don't believe in conspiracies.Just History of war.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472062/

Yeah...war has nothing to do about money.

Its all about freeing other countries and protecting ours.

[Psmith]

AbnRanger and others, (including me) - Let us refrain from all political discussion in this thread and in all other places in this forum.

Continuing in the manner this thread is continuing might result in verbal "head bashing" by some members of our wonderful community.

We wouldn't want that, would we.

Greg Smith

[Tony Nemo]

The current conflict in Afghanistan and the previous one in Iraq do involve money which craves a stable world order of laws. Saddam was a loose cannon. His generals thought he had WMD capability up to 3 weeks before the invasion. All the money in the region wanted him out of there (and helped with troops in the earlier conflict). The Taliban were indeed helped to oust the Soviets but showed there Caliphate ambitions (and apparent ingratitude for previous help) with the attack on the WT Center. Modern wars are typically carried out by those with little to lose against those with lots to lose.

To say that "money" desires a world safe for business is true. This goes for Chinese money, Brazilian money. South African money and even Russian money. The spread of the Rule of Law is supported by every nation that has a decent regard for the safety of people and their property and is being taken up in areas of the world where it's development was least expected (the former communist and communist/capitalist experiments being carried out today).

Don't look for any South Korean money to advocate war against the moneyless regime in the north.

Nevertheless, nothing is quite that simple and Artman's cynicism has been well nourished by history.

[michalis]

Meanwhile http://www.meetmeline.com/videos.html

An excellent video. Maybe too much PP ed but I really liked it. Thanks for reminding this -wave of light-.

We all participated on this politics related conversation but lets talk about our creations, lets talk about democracy if you like. Lets talk about art.

+1 Psmith.

[AbnRanger]

AbnRanger and others, (including me) - Let us refrain from all political discussion in this thread and in all other places in this forum.

Continuing in the manner this thread is continuing might result in verbal "head bashing" by some members of our wonderful community.

We wouldn't want that, would we.

Greg Smith

Well, that may be the case....but this is what happens when you lob a flaming cocktail onto a Fireworks stand (with Anti-Military comments). Just trying to dispel some of the fallacies espoused here.

[Tony Nemo]

As you sow, so shall you reap. Thanks, Michalis, for the link to an example of what a small studio can accomplish.

[spacepainter]

...Painting t-shirts...

[Tom K]

Yeah, but what about software design and marketing? Don't you guys have any thoughts on this?

Yeah, I do. But this thread has gone way off topic.

Tom

[Psmith]

Tom K.

That may be, but I look to you to bring it back and share your thoughts on the "actual" topic.

Greg Smith

[wave of light]

Meanwhile http://www.meetmeline.com/videos.htmlAn excellent video. Maybe too much PP ed but I really liked it. Thanks for reminding this -wave of light-. We all participated on this politics related conversation but lets talk about our creations, lets talk about democracy if you like. Lets talk about art. +1 Psmith.

Glad you liked it. It is one that stuck in my memory... a bit of cg that always makes me smile.

Here's one from a while back... a nice mix of 2D and 3D:

http://www.3dm3.com/video/2008/10/le-building/

Ricky.

[michalis]

Thanks, Michalis, for the link to an example of what a small studio can accomplish.

... I just re -posted the link, 'wave of light- posted this actually.

Here I have to remind you how much 'sindel' costed. I'm wondering ... Open source community vs 3dmax? Just saying. Is this question out of topic?

[Psmith]

The topic is not all that specific, but I would like to examine a few concepts about application design, (especially artistic application), design and philosophy.

1) When an application appears complicated, numerically based and technical - it will attract people who like complexity, numbers and who are technically oriented. WHO are these people, stereotypically speaking? How many of these types of people exist among the computer using populace, at large?

2) When an application appears simple, visually pleasing and non-technical - it will attract people who like to do things simply, (without fuss), who have aesthetic values and are non-technical in orientation. WHO are these people, stereotypically speaking? How many of these constitute the computer using populace, at large?

Which type of people, (generally speaking), are responsible for the most highly regarded creative productions, (all media considered)?

Which type of people do those marketing wizards at Apple Computer aim their line of products? How successful is this strategy, for Apple?

Have companies that were once equated with "highly technical, nerd oriented", (Microsoft), learned anything from the marketing strategies authored by Apple Computer? Have these companies benefited from applying this "simple" strategy to their own endeavors?

Greg Smith

[michalis]

Are you talking about UI Psmith?

Well, in fact, I know more about winXP than OSX. But I returned to apple computers. Trying to avoid this click-o-mania of microsoft.

But, no use, as all these 3d apps have their own rules (and UI).

This doesn't help me as an artist, even I learned the most of the dirty secrets of OSs apps etc

I'm not a fun of VGs, really.

Even so, I learned how to use zbrush (similar to VGs), I learned to use blender (spent months on this UI and still not familiar) and now 3DCoat. (seems it has a reasonable UI but its not true).

In fact 3dcoat has one of the worst UIs I have ever seen.

But what can I do about it except complaining? Just click-o-mania once again.

UI is the most difficult thing, maybe the most important?

Even apple still sells this stupid mouse, I wont lose my hand, a logitech g5 is always my friend.

I wont accept sliders from 0-10 when they practically work at 0.0001-0.0003 (blender-gimp)

About zbrush UI, you already know what my opinion is. I'll win the game. lol

Maya? tragedy lol

I don't know much about coding, (just 'old basic and some fractal algorithms once upon a time)

But when I see a messed UI I can imagine how code looks like.

To re-write an app like 3dcoat from scratch its against marketing, it probably costs lot of hours and money. The 'real' world ?

Meanwhile we became servants of these machines, developers, companies and haven't seen the worst yet.

Against this 'evil' nonsense we develop our personal workflow, at least we can do this.

[ekunzendorf]

Talking politics on a forum is like wrestling with pigs. Everyone gets dirty, nothing gets solved and the pigs love it.

AbnRanger, thanks for your service to our country.

As far as software design and what is created with it. Keep in mind that creating art using the computer is quite a bit different from creating it with pencil or paint. Making marks with pencil or paint is simply a matter of putting them to paper or canvas. Using the computer is quite a bit more complex-there is a much steeper learning curve associated with using 3D Coat, ZBrush, Maya, Blender, LW or even Photoshop and/or Illustrator for that matter. Getting a physical expression of that work is more difficult still. Giving more people access to more powerful software is what truly drives and has driven software manufacturers since this whole thing started. What people do with the software cannot be blamed on the software makers.

Of course, once that learning curve is overcome the software allows the artist to create extremely polished works with not so much effort. Think about drawing a perfectly modeled and lit sphere on paper. Creating it in a 3D app is simply a matter of pressing some buttons, setting up a camera and rendering. Creating an animation is the same; the animator no longer has to create a drawing for each frame. (of course the process of rigging is technically difficult, so the analogy breaks down a bit).

Now, as to what people produce...well, they mimic what they see as successful. It pains me to say this, but it has always been this way. The great master artists copied the artists who went before them. For example, the Renaissance masters learned by copying what greek statuary was left after the dark ages. They depicted religious subjects because the Church was buying. The Classicists like David and Ingres copied those masters and used myths and allegories as their subjects. They did so because that was what sold, mostly to the middle to upper class. It had nothing to do with "art" as we know it today. Also, keep in mind that one could not, until the late 1800's, simply be an artist. It was guild based and highly restricted. Look at the paintings produced during those times. Very derivative; they are practically the same painting painted over and over and over again. Very polished, but very similar. Artists studied their whole lives to produce those paintings and sculptures. They worked hard to polish their craft, and frankly, that is a lot of what we really admire today.

So, what would you have gotten if you'd have put the ability to create polished work in the hands of the general public during those times? Lots of greek gods and goddesses and myths and religious subjects. Their Hercules/Polyphemus/Athenas are our Master Chief/Orc/Elven Princesses, don't you think?

Do I sometimes think that putting such powerful software in the hands of the general public is like giving guns to monkeys? Sure! Would I change it? nope Nope NOPE! Because, like or not, while I admire master art, it was about as innovative as anvils. Nowadays, true art is more about ideas than it is subject. The anything goes mentality of post-modernism, while chaotic, has allowed the computer to become a powerful force in art. Face it, it wasn't that long ago that the term computer art was considered an oxymoron by the vast number of artists. So, I tend to ignore the derivative crap out there.

Keep in mind that one person's derivative garbage is another's gem. If you don't like it, ignore it; and find sources you do like. I would say Disney and Pixar are quite innovative in their storytelling, but I have to say that as well animated as Tangled is, it looked and sounded an awful lot like Little Mermaid[/i] to me. Does this take away from its success? I don't think so. As I said the character animation was spectacular. Pixar has a magic touch; lets hope that Cars II is as good as the original!

So to recap: What makes money, makes money. Artists follow the money. Software manufacturers make money by making software that allows artists to follow the money. To change that equation will limit somebody's freedom and bring the whole thing crashing down. But that is just my opinion. I could be wrong!

Excelsior!

Eric Kunzendorf

Jacksonville University

users.ju.edu/ekunzen