b-mesh or b-spheres or

[michalis]

I found these papers here, what do you say? It seems that this works much better than z-spheres of zbrush

http://www.math.zju.edu.cn/ligangliu/CAGD/Projects/BMesh/

[BeatKitano]

I'm really fearing duplicates in mantis if we delete the bugs threads on the forums...

[Psmith]

Michalis:

This is quite interesting and holds a lot of promise.

But, once a base mesh is constructed, it seems that local subdivision is the only practical means of adding detail - which also means using a sculpting paradigm similar to Zbrush - a program with a wide array of polygonal sculpting tools and multi-resolution applied to only specific parts of a mesh.

Greg Smith

[michalis]

@Psmith

What if ... we had this as the 'curves' tool now? To export without voxelizing to retopo room, do voxelizing then etc etc. Or just add details under MV mode. I still hope that one day we'll have a decent sculpt-paint room.

[Imhotep397]

@Psmith

What if ... we had this as the 'curves' tool now? To export without voxelizing to retopo room, do voxelizing then etc etc. Or just add details under MV mode. I still hope that one day we'll have a decent sculpt-paint room.

This looks interesting, but it doesn't really offer a great improvement over what's available right now as far as I can see. It would be nice, as far as being able to convert the defined skeleton they would be having you construct in modeling into a real bones skeleton with automatically assigned weight painting for the mesh in whatever main app you might be using, but I suspect Pixologic is working on that for the next version of ZBrush. (Probably one of the main reasons for them creating the GoZ exchange format)

[b33nine]

This looks pretty awesome, but what about facial deformation? Defeats the purpose if we have to retopo the head/face in my opinion.

[kay_Eva]

don't we already have these features?

[BeatKitano]

Yes we do (in zbrush), it just takes a few extra clicks

[michalis]

don't we already have these features?

Do we? export directly under curves palette, import it as retopo cage, see what you have.

@BeatKitano, this is probably better than zspheres

[BeatKitano]

Maybe michalis, but I fail to see the real advantage over zsphere II, curve energy conservation maybe, but at such a raw stage, it would be a piece of cake to fix it with a few strokes on zb.

[michalis]

Question: Do you like zspheres? Do you like the topology they produce?

What I do? Just importing the base mesh in 3dcoat as ref and topo mesh and fix it. In blender sometimes. But there's a lot of stretching and this bmesh doesn't seem to have this problem.

[b33nine]

This looks worlds better than Z-spheres imo. Still very curious about solutions for facial deformations, also curious if they have plans for non-organic modelling solutions. I'd probably buy this if the price was reasonable.

[BeatKitano]

Question: Do you like zspheres? Do you like the topology they produce?

What I do? Just importing the base mesh in 3dcoat as ref and topo mesh and fix it. In blender sometimes. But there's a lot of stretching and this bmesh doesn't seem to have this problem.

No I don't like them, I use them when I want to start something but am in lazy mode, and like you it's a template, something to start from. I go to retopo after a while...

BUT, what is better about the b-mesh thingie ?

I don't want to nag, but I REALLY don't see what's so better than zsphere II. And you still need a retopo...

[Psmith]

There are at least 4 differences between this version of Bmesh and Zspheres:

1) Bmesh spheres are much easier to lay out (watch their video).

2) The generated, Quad dominant mesh is much more accurate and orderly.

3) General Multi-resolution is built in.

4) It appears that reposing can function without re-ordering the mesh. (Think animation).

Very promising - but will require detail sculpting in an app that is based on polygons, like Zbrush.

No point using this software if the mesh must be converted to voxels, followed by the construction of a polygonal mesh on top of it - defeats the purpose.

However, on second thought, using this Bmesh tool as the means of getting very close to the final form you wish to achieve - then importing into our Retopo Room as the final mesh structure, you could merge this mesh into voxel space for adding many of the medium frequency details - and then use the Retopo Room's "Snap" function to bake the details you created with voxels into this adequate base mesh.

Add the high frequency details by means of MV Paint in the Paint Room - export - Done!

Greg Smith

[BeatKitano]

OK. I give up. It's probably awesome but I don't see why.

[michalis]

Just to have something to talk about, BeatKitano. LOL

@Psmith, Sculpting room, what about it? This room needs some more love.

[Psmith]

How about a dedicated "Poly" Room - replacing the Sculpt Room - with an arsenal of polygon sculpting tools to revival "you know who" - with true multi-resolution? That would be even better. Raul is thinking on it, as we speak.

Greg Smith

[jedwards]

I don't really see this as a valid replacement for zspheres or curves in 3dcoat. It's nice if you don't have either of those apps but not enough advantages to justify doing this process outside of those apps if you do have them. This bmesh stuff would be better licensed to developers of 3d apps to be used as part of the modeling process.

One reason why I still prefer using curves over zspheres is that I am ultimately still sculpting in voxels, without topology constraints after I convert the curves. The only thing lacking in 3dcoat's approach is that you can't continue to use the curves to deform the voxel mesh that is derived from them. If andrew could find a way to reuse those curves as a deformation skeleton it would close that gap. Better yet, being able to use them further on a polygon mesh, after you've textured it and want to pose it. Ultimately not that big a deal for me - more of a "would be nice" type of thing. Animation though? Pointless. That requires a completely separate toolset, which I just don't care to see in my sculpting apps. Even in zbrush that's a largely unused part of the new tools for me. If I'm going to animate something I'm going to do it right, with a proper toolset.

I'll still retopologize my stuff by hand because none of those bmesh results would give me what I want for a final animation ready mesh. Maybe if you're doing really simple, cartoony stuff, but not the stuff I'm working on. Even the claims to cleaner derived meshes from the bmesh spheres is largely irrelevant. Messy geometry when sculpting in zbrush just isn't a big deal anymore. There are more than enough tools in zb now to compensate for and allow you to ignore a lot of topology issues that cropped up in past versions. For 3dcoat it's a non-issue because, well... voxels.

I think my favorite thing in that video was the cut/paste of bmesh spheres to create new shapes from.

[b33nine]

If we're going to add a poly room can we add basic poly modelling functionality? I would LOVE something like that added to 3dcoat.

[Psmith]

If we're going to add a poly room can we add basic poly modelling functionality? I would LOVE something like that added to 3dcoat.

It's seriously being considered.

Greg Smith

[jedwards]

More polytgon tools would be nice. I've asked for this before. Between the retopo and primitive tools 3dcoat is already halfway there. Many times I've wanted finer control over a primitive before voxelizing it, or being able to add things like cylinders and spheres to a retopo layer rather than build those things by hand.

[polyxo]

It's seriously being considered.

Greg Smith

Really?

Why then doing all this work with establishing Applinks?

In my optinon adding a Poly-Room was nothing but an incredible waste of Andrews valuable Development-time.

But I of course understand the need to have quick access to Polygon-Tools.

The far better answer however -in my opinion - was making Applinks even more powerful.

GoZ is still stronger in truly linking files and brings in Geometry edited inside another

package more intelligently - one can actually add or remove large portions inside the Poly-Modeler and

it comes back to Zbrush with all sculpt-information still intact.

The same should also be possible in the Voxel-Room:

Import a basemesh, edit it in Voxels, find an area which you would prefer editing with Polygons or Nurbs

send the Surface-Mesh (as a Reference) to the external app. Do your Editing and just re-import in a way that

only the newly added stuff gets processed and added to the existing Voxel-Object.

In jedwards case one simply could allow throwing the Primitive into a SubD-Modeler of choice and it comes

back in the size and orientation in space where it had been before.

[geo_n]

How about a dedicated "Poly" Room - replacing the Sculpt Room - with an arsenal of polygon sculpting tools to revival "you know who" - with true multi-resolution? That would be even better. Raul is thinking on it, as we speak.

Greg Smith

Some people have asked for this for a long time including me.

We would like to do all content creation with 3dcoat. Retopo room is so close.

Maybe Andrew wants to innovate with voxels and bored with another polymodelling app but I'm sure if 3dcoat can offer a complete content creation package like modo, it would be widely accepted. Come to think of it modo is probably the best at content creation right now with all its tools, polymodelling, sculpting, texturing, etc.

Voxels, though innovative, is imho not the perfect companion for more mainstream animation appz.

This is one reason zbrush is king with its traditional workflow that blends well with animation appz.

[polyxo]

Some people have asked for this for a long time including me.

Yes I know - but this doesn't make it a better idea in my opinion.

One can not at all compare Pilgway as a firm to Luxology - they have a far greater Userbase,

thus more money to buy Technology and last but foremost: more Developers.

It took Pixologic more than 10 years to get to degree of Refinement and Non-Linearity their package offers,

Pilways with its still raw state of 3DCoat's Architecture, Navigation, GUI Screen Widgets consistancy and

Pen-Usability was well advised to not further expand into areas which are well covered by Applinks already.

Also modo got that popular not because it did it all in early states already but because it did the

things it did so well... Because they understood that it is required to devote a lot of attention

to the smallest Detail. It's these little Details which make working inside a Software a joyful experience

not the sheer amount of features.

[BeatKitano]

I have to agree with polyxo here. As much as I would like a start to finish workflow in 3dcoat, making a full feature poly edition room in 3dcoat is not small business. Lately I've been beta testing a new modeler called Voidworld, even though the man responsible for the programming is very talented (reminds me of someone) he still has a long way before it can be called a full fledged poly modeler. And this took near two years to get there.... Now imagine how much time invested in this poly edition room will be lost for bugfixing and other room feature implementation. And adding a poly modeling room is like a trojan horse, you get the base integrated, you get 10 bazillions more requests... another way to get lost in the development imho.

I think (for now) it would be best to allow more flexibility with applinks as polyxo said, cause there's already tons of fully working poly modeler out there already just waiting to get in the game.

[Psmith]

I'm sure you can see, by this thread, alone, what Andrew and the Pilgway development team are up against regarding implementing new features.

Some want to do everything in one app, (or as few apps as is possible), and others like to do things in many apps, simultaneously, (thus the need for Applinks).

And, as you know, Pilgway has a tiny development staff compared to larger organisations.

But, both Andrew and Raul are ambitious and energetic guys who love to please their audiences. So, expect a lot. You'll get a lot from them.

I might add that it is totally up to Andrew and staff what he/they feel is an incredible waste of time. No need to express your opinions so vehemently on this issue.

Greg Smith

[polyxo]

I might add that it is totally up to Andrew and staff what he/they feel is an incredible waste of time. No need to express your opinions so vehemently on this issue.

I can't follow your logic. How is that any related?

Please let me express what I think, there's already some other guys who'd rather like to prevent this.

[michalis]

The possibility to have a new paint-sculpt room is among my wishes. This will end all the 3dc UI confusion actually. IMO of course.

[gbball]

3D coat is bristling with potential. I would like to see Andrew and Raul connect the tools that are already within the program better...offering a less linear work flow.

If you could effectively use retopo tools to create nurb or polygon patches on the the voxel surface, then edit them in the voxel room with the free form primitive tools, 3d coat would be the best. The tools are all already there...why not get them working more smoothly together.

That way you could create a rough eye shape, retopo it with the edge flow you want...bring that eye patch back into the voxel sculpt room and use the retopo geometry as a way to edit the voxel form.

You could sculpt and retopo in turns until your project is finished. This is something I would love to see. The potential for this type of work flow would be remarkable. 3D Coat would be the best. Voxels are the key ingredient. It would be the best of traditional modeling programs and free form sculpting rolled into one awesome program.

[haikalle]

Also modo got that popular not because it did it all in early states already but because it did the

things it did so well... Because they understood that it is required to devote a lot of attention

to the smallest Detail. It's these little Details which make working inside a Software a joyful experience

not the sheer amount of features.

I have to admit. I have been using Modo edu version and I'm loving it. It's really great to see that they have been thinking every small detail with

time and care. I can see that modo has very bright future ahead.