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b-mesh or b-spheres or


michalis
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I admit also this.

Its more easy for me to imagine zbrush having a voxel room than imagining 3dcoat having a zbrush room.

There's no real reason to say so. This is how I feel. Mostly because as already mentioned, zbrush has 10 years of development already. Similar with modo.

Its the different approach of all these apps that I like lost. Its always funny and inspiring. Technic and art are almost the same word in ancient greeks (techni - techniki) . This may indicates something valuable.

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Just to clarify my last comment I am not advocating for a full blown polygon modeler to replace dedicated apps. My interest lies only in improving the sculpt first, retopologize later approach that 3dcoat has allowed me, more than any other app to pursue. There are still some deficiencies in this workflow within 3dcoat for me. So my only interest is to see that workflow improve. Adding more polygon editing functionality to primitives and the retopology room would be good for this. I have no wish for 3dc to become a full blown polygon editing tool - especially when things like AO baking, brush quality, stability, and a 64 bit mac version are still in need of attention. Andrew has proven his genius and speed at implementing features often enough that whatever he chooses to do I'm sure will get done. I just think making 3dc a full blown modeler would be a bit too much of a distraction from perfecting what is already there first.

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Do retopo first, sculpt details after. This is my opinion. To sculpt first and have to build my cage after is not what I want. This method doesn't go anywhere. For low quality game figures only, sorry.

I think we're both looking for zbrush workflow there.

If only zbrush is not so wierd gui I would pick it up.

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Just to clarify my last comment I am not advocating for a full blown polygon modeler to replace dedicated apps. My interest lies only in improving the sculpt first, retopologize later approach that 3dcoat has allowed me, more than any other app to pursue. There are still some deficiencies in this workflow within 3dcoat for me. So my only interest is to see that workflow improve. Adding more polygon editing functionality to primitives and the retopology room would be good for this. I have no wish for 3dc to become a full blown polygon editing tool - especially when things like AO baking, brush quality, stability, and a 64 bit mac version are still in need of attention. Andrew has proven his genius and speed at implementing features often enough that whatever he chooses to do I'm sure will get done. I just think making 3dc a full blown modeler would be a bit too much of a distraction from perfecting what is already there first.

+1. I think Retopo could hit another level with just a few additions. No need for full-blown modeling tools, IMO. At this stage, 3D Coat needs refinement more than it needs expansion. For every new feature that's implemented, it's one or more bugs that's still residing in the application.
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Bugs are a crawling all over me

They be a walking through my software

And I be a crying

Bugs are a crawling all over me...

* Brought to you by The Bug Free Software Society *

just having some fun... B)

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Do retopo first, sculpt details after. This is my opinion. To sculpt first and have to build my cage after is not what I want. This method doesn't go anywhere. For low quality game figures only, sorry.

Your comment doesn't make any sense. Please clarify. It sounds to me like you prefer to just model everything first. If so, why bother with 3dcoat? Technically you can't retopologize without having sculpted first. That's called modeling. Are we discussing the same thing or is this a language issue? And to correct you, retopology is NOT just for low quality game figures only, sorry.

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@ jedwards

Not a language issue this time. LOL

I mean, do voxel sculpting using less dense mesh. One million is more than enough. Do smoothing, no details sorry. Do topology. Then its the right time to do detailed sculpting. Now, I export to zbrush. This way I avoid working on surface-vox room mode. Yes, I don't like this mode at all. I have my personal reasons. I hate tri meshes. I can't have strokes that flow this way. If I had to then, again, I could just export the tri mesh (or dense quad) directly to zbrush. But even the dense quad isn't a nice quad mesh after topology. That's why I'm using autopo (guided). To be able to remesh as sculpting in zbrush in five minutes.

You tried to corect me about what I said but I never said that topology is for low quality models only. I said that to bake a hi density voxel to a retopo mesh is for low quality figures only. This I said. Sorry too, language issues, probably.

BTW Zbrush looks like it has a 'weird' UI. Now, after some time there, I find it one of the best. A UI that works with digitizers. Dramatically more effective than the one we have in 3dc. Its not faire, 3dc tries to do a lot of things. But the lack of a nice single sculpting-painting room makes the whole UI confused. My opinion of course.

I also noticed that lot of shortcuts of zbrush have adopted to 3dcoat on last builds. Is this a coincidence?

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@ jedwards

Not a language issue this time. LOL

I mean, do voxel sculpting using less dense mesh. One million is more than enough. Do smoothing, no details sorry. Do topology. Then its the right time to do detailed sculpting. Now, I export to zbrush. This way I avoid working on surface-vox room mode. Yes, I don't like this mode at all. I have my personal reasons. I hate tri meshes. I can't have strokes that flow this way. If I had to then, again, I could just export the tri mesh (or dense quad) directly to zbrush. But even the dense quad isn't a nice quad mesh after topology. That's why I'm using autopo (guided). To be able to remesh as sculpting in zbrush in five minutes.

You tried to corect me about what I said but I never said that topology is for low quality models only. I said that to bake a hi density voxel to a retopo mesh is for low quality figures only. This I said. Sorry too, language issues, probably.

BTW Zbrush looks like it has a 'weird' UI. Now, after some time there, I find it one of the best. A UI that works with digitizers. Dramatically more effective than the one we have in 3dc. Its not faire, 3dc tries to do a lot of things. But the lack of a nice single sculpting-painting room makes the whole UI confused. My opinion of course.

I also noticed that lot of shortcuts of zbrush have adopted to 3dcoat on last builds. Is this a coincidence?

Ok thanks for clarifying, I see where you are coming from now. I actually agree with your workflow as I prefer zbrush for detail sculpting myself and am not a big fan of surface mode in 3dcoat. I've been a zbrush user for far longer than I have been a 3dc user so I've grown to appreciate the UI for what it offers over the years. I suppose my request is coming from a place where I'm balancing 3dcoat's current capabilities right now, with what I hope they may be someday. I do all my detail sculpting in zbrush as well because the toolset and performance are still much better suited to that kind of work.

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From what I've seen thus far 3DCoat definitely could use more modeling tools just because there are a multitude of things that can be modeled exponentially faster than they can be sculpted. Usually these are things that show up in multi-object mesh items like characters with equipment and things that can be modeled almost instantly with a good set of control curves. No I'm not talking about spline tools being added to 3DCoat rather just the most efficient curve based shaping tools that generate polygonal geometry.

Trying to move multi-object mesh items between packages just to model something like a pocket, eyelets on a boot, a hood of the car or something like that is like crossing a molten lava river of pain the width of the Nile. Additionally regardless of what many people say it almost always makes sense to either start off with well thought out topology or to stop usually mid way through a complex model and retopologize just to get the most out of the sculpting stage. I can see that Polygon modeling is going to be a major step which is good with the addition of Raul, but hopefully not at the cost of voxels. Voxel based sculpting in 3D Coat seems every bit as ingenious as Pixols and Zshperes.

Update: Just saw Raul's "LiveClay" video (http://www.box.net/shared/17cfycvi1y) this looks pretty amazing as well. I guess my question with this is that generally I only work with all quad meshes, since I know that "LiveClat" triangulates to get the high level of local detail that it does I would have to convert the mesh objects anyway so what's the advantage over voxel sculpting?

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Update: Just saw Raul's "LiveClay" video (http://www.box.net/shared/17cfycvi1y) this looks pretty amazing as well. I guess my question with this is that generally I only work with all quad meshes, since I know that "LiveClat" triangulates to get the high level of local detail that it does I would have to convert the mesh objects anyway so what's the advantage over voxel sculpting?

LIke you said, it's "local", meaning you can add more details in the required area leaving the rest untouched. It means lighter meshes, and geometry used in more smarter way.

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What will happen if I grab a rectangular mode brush and project a mask on a whole dense mesh? A texture of a wall or similar. How efficient will be Raul's method then? Better than voxels? What if I suddenly decide to cut the half of a vox model? I usually do things like these you know. That's why I love voxels. Out of topic. Never mind. :drinks:

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In addition to allowing you to deal with "lighter", more efficient geometry, (a skin rather than a volume), this kind of localized resolution is ideal for crisp edges at low processor cost, whereas voxels displaying the same edge crispness would be processor overwhelming.

LiveClay is the ticket for the common man, the "Little Guy", (maybe that should be, "little guy"). It's also for the BIG GUY that wants to work at lightning speeds with lots and lots of objects in his scene.

AUTOPO should be able to work with this kind of variable resolution skin, as well - although it needs a way to discover these crisp edges and match them with final, polygonal edges.

Once a base LiveClay mesh is established - all manipulation and sculpting tools will work much more smoothly, faster and just like those found in "Brand X".

The best of all polygonal worlds.

Greg Smith

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I will have a fast machine then with "all manipulation and sculpting tools will work much more smoothly, faster and just like those found in "Brand X".

What I still can't understand is why to have this crisp machine and have to retopo after? Just, once, someone could try to describe to me what kind of workflow this will be. Why not just voxels, retopo and only then this fantastic fast machine? In this case we can be free at last from all these snapping issues, all these cages trying to bake the impossible. lol We won't even need LC though its a welcome possibility. But again we'll be in front of confused UI. Voxels and LC together, retopo with more or less problems. WIthout an excellent sculpting room after, without subdivisions and serious delicate sculpting on multires meshes. Without a decent tool for moving, setting poses, setting even small scenes. What kind of workflow are you proposing? I think its the perfect time for a clear statement. How 3dc vX will look like?

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BTW Zbrush looks like it has a 'weird' UI. Now, after some time there, I find it one of the best. A UI that works with digitizers. Dramatically more effective than the one we have in 3dc. Its not faire, 3dc tries to do a lot of things. But the lack of a nice single sculpting-painting room makes the whole UI confused. My opinion of course.

I also noticed that lot of shortcuts of zbrush have adopted to 3dcoat on last builds. Is this a coincidence?

The UI in 3dcoat in the painting room is almost a carbon copy of photoshop which makes it very easy for me to pick up 3dcoat even after weeks of not using it. In anycase painting room and retopo room are the most used aspect of 3dc for me and UI is simple to understand and that's why I like it compared to zbrush.

Zbrush adopting some 3dcoat shortcut, will have to investigate that!

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Zbrush adopting some 3dcoat shortcut, will have to investigate that!

lol, start from curves tool [Q,W.E.R], navigation then... This isn't bad, lot of zbrush users here.

As for retopo room, some work is needed there, as "convert n-gons to tri-quads" as remove-join double vertices" as the weird behavior of some retopo tools - related with camera view. As moving, editing UV islands (with lets say 2000 faces). As it is indeed one of the most used aspects of 3dc. Maybe the most important. Now you're saying that you like this UI in retopo room. Especially when trying to combine UVs and retopo layers? On multiple vox layers? I also have to investigate that! :)

We're out of topic, when I mentioned these b-mesh-spheres, I was hopping to have a talk about the future of 3dcoat, not the present. About a nice sculpting room. With a better UI than zbrushes one. If possible. Its the workflow that makes a UI. What else?

Mirror most of the tools from vox room to the sculpt-after-retopo room, all these baking related, posing gismos, merging with or without vox, etc etc join painting room with it. And we have a nice clean UI. And possibly an excellent performance on any hardware. What do you say?

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I'm talking about UI and you're talking about bugs.

Anyway yeah I would love to have a powerful sculptroom after retopo. But maybe that is not the developers direction.

Seems the direction of 3dcoat is to focus on voxels, painting texture, retopo tools. In a way this is to avoid direct competition with zbrush's powerful sculpting toolset. But who will prevent pixologic from developing the same toolset 3dcoat has?

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But who will prevent pixologic from developing the same toolset 3dcoat has?

Yes, we're thinking the same thing.

But i'm not talking about bugs geo_n. A confused UI is not a bug. Still waiting for a decent 64 bit Mac build and these aren't bugs.

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Yes, we're thinking the same thing.

But i'm not talking about bugs geo_n. A confused UI is not a bug. Still waiting for a decent 64 bit Mac build and these aren't bugs.

Not to go OT again. But you're using the wrong platform :p:

I love apple products but not for 3D. Using mac for 3d is a bug. Lol

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What all these matters "boil down to" is one statement: "What is 3D-Coat, what can it do, and who is it being made for."

Right now, and for some time now, 3D-Coat is primarily being aimed at those in production - professionals who need our set of tools to speed things up and cost them less. In typical "trickle down" fashion, the amateurs benefit by getting the same set of tools at a Low, Low Price. At the cost of a "hobbyist" program.

Voxel sculpting started out as a kind of experiment - and is now going main stream - but mostly, only professionals have the resources to use them well (very powerful hardware). It's hard for the amateurs to get the whole benefit of these tools, since they don't have the hardware resources, generally speaking.

This is where both LiveClay and powerful polygonal modeling tools come in to save the day - with a few other fantastic benefits along with it, like crisp edges, truly flat surfaces, wonderful machine bevels and chamfers - bridging - true multi-resolution - everything working at lightning speeds.

Boolean operations, extrusions, curves, repeating "chain" objects, etc., still work better with voxels - so voxels are here to stay.

What still remains to be done is to define a series of workflows that are optimal, given the introduction of these new 3D-Coat abilities and functions - with an interface to match them, just like Michalis has said.

We're working on it.

Greg Smith

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I see geo_n, you don't participate to a conversation, you came here to upset me. I'll try to remember next time. :)

Meanwhile its time to update my avatar picture to something more evil.

Not trying to upset you at all. Just saying 3dc is not alone with mac problem and waiting for a decent mac build as you said. Mac users always have to wait :D

Nice avatar btw.

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I don't see any difference (except for the hole thing that is indeed something not achievable with zsphere. But that set aside, "so what" ? Nothing new,

since a few version now (301 if remember correctly)...

Well while the Zbrush-Implementation still looks a lot more beautiful (I could watch Zsketching for hours) I definitely see some more advanced concepts

flashing in this short Preview. Andrew can't you hire Nicholas as well? Seems that he's also quite good with Ptex and stuff....

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@polyxo LOL why not the whole blender project?

"I could watch Zsketching for hours" Don't LOL, zsketching produces terrible topology, close to 'remesh'. In fact, remesh is much better as you can work similar to voxels (somehow... LOL again)

@beatkitano

except the holes, which happens to be a great advantage, watch more carefully the hip area and how loops are building for thighs. A quite better topology, zsheres in fact produces a useless topo for me. Retopology is needed. I usually import the mesh to blender and rebuild this mess-mesh.

@geo_n

You didn't upset me, it was a joke. :) BTW I have a PC (hp-3GHz) here, I have win7 installed on macpro (bootcamp), I have more experience on XP-OS than on OSX , I choose OSX to work - I have my reasons (I don't like ntuser.dat files)

@psmith

3dc and voxels are fine for me. Even working on mac 32bit build, I never use surface mode (decimated mode only for moving huge parts). I never go for more than 1-3M, I still insist on sculpting after topology. It isn't because I prefer zbrush. I believe that a nice sculpting room in 3dc could eliminate the need of ZB. I'm talking about a new 3dcoat, a stand alone character-modeler. Not a helper-app of zb, mb.

My vision for a new 3dcoat:

1. Construct a great engine for surface sculpting-painting, great cross-platform performance, great close to artists needs brushes, posing -tools.

Make possible to set up simple scenes there.

2. We already have a good retopo-UV room.

3. A simple vox based mesh compositor room, this should be a helper room, nothing more. (we have it)

To have to import ready-made chains as voxels and retopo this, well, its a little funny, isn't it?

4. A render room, we already have a good one but some more is needed (as fake SSS, export DOF maps etc etc)

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