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Muscular Male


jamdalu
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I am working on a muscular male model for a personal project and need feedback on how to improve it. General comments on the model are welcome. At this stage, I have a base model that is ready for a detail pass. What brushes and/or settings work best for detailing the model in 3D Coat? Is it better to exit voxels and detail in the sculpt room? If so, how does the sculpt room differ from the surface representation mode in the voxel room? I am used to working in Zbrush, but really like the freedom and performance of the 3D Coat voxels. It just seems difficult to get the fine details I am used to in ZBrush. Should I just use Zbrush for detailing?

Added latest renders to the initial post so anyone viewing can see how the project is evolving, without having to go through all of the posts...

post-6440-0-85001400-1312640939_thumb.pn

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Looks awesome, may i ask, have you studied art, are you working from references?

Within 3D-Coat you increase the resolution of the voxels. You can then detail your model in the new voxel resolution and use the proxy mode for shape adjustments. But you may not get as much details like in ZBrush. When using 3D-Coat, something like skin details is usually done with texture painting. But it very much depends on your hardware and preferences.

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I am working on a muscular male model for a personal project and need feedback on how to improve it. General comments on the model are welcome. At this stage, I have a base model that is ready for a detail pass. What brushes and/or settings work best for detailing the model in 3D Coat? Is it better to exit voxels and detail in the sculpt room? If so, how does the sculpt room differ from the surface representation mode in the voxel room? I am used to working in Zbrush, but really like the freedom and performance of the 3D Coat voxels. It just seems difficult to get the fine details I am used to in ZBrush. Should I just use Zbrush for detailing?

Apart from the hard crease where the forearm joins the upper arm, it's a very nice model. I figured you just haven't gotten to it yet. Yeah, you can detail the heck out it in Voxels or in the Paint Room, with live Normal Map depth painting or Displacement painting (including Vector displacement...done in MicroVertex mode). The Sculpt room in 3DC is a bit misleading. It's meant only to augment the (image/map-based) sculpting in the Paint Room, by actually pushing verts around. It's actually a very efficient alternative to doing the high-frequency details in voxels, but I tend to do all I can in Voxels and just bake it all out.

You could save all the detailing to the very last, and do it all in Surface mode, that way you can go ahead and take advantage of LiveClay (dynamic tessellation like Sculptris), now in Beta.

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Wow, great start.

I don't know how I'd work on such a model.

Some parts may don't need as much resolution as others.

In voxel room, I'd probably separate head, trunk, legs

and arms to avoid slow down by increasing the whole resolution.

Can't wait to see more. Good luck with it.

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Looks awesome, may i ask, have you studied art, are you working from references?

Within 3D-Coat you increase the resolution of the voxels. You can then detail your model in the new voxel resolution and use the proxy mode for shape adjustments. But you may not get as much details like in ZBrush. When using 3D-Coat, something like skin details is usually done with texture painting. But it very much depends on your hardware and preferences.

Thanks for the pointers. I was operating under the assumption that voxels continue to "subdivide" as you sculpt. I will try bumping resolution as suggested.

I want to have the detail on the model for the normal map. That brings another question. Is anyone able to achieve good results from the baking process in retopo? I am not happy with the results so far, and end up doing that process in TOPOGUN or ZBrush. Perhaps I am not doing it right in 3DC?

I have studied art and continue to do so. Examining various reference is the real key and I am far from where I want to be. Nothing beats having a subject in front of you, so I try to work with models whenever possible. I was also a bodybuilder, so I am familiar with muscles from that.

I really want to upgrade my skills, so further study and community critique is definately needed. Thanks for helping in that respect!

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Apart from the hard crease where the forearm joins the upper arm, it's a very nice model. I figured you just haven't gotten to it yet. Yeah, you can detail the heck out it in Voxels or in the Paint Room, with live Normal Map depth painting or Displacement painting (including Vector displacement...done in MicroVertex mode). The Sculpt room in 3DC is a bit misleading. It's meant only to augment the sculpting in the Paint Room, but actually pushing verts around...not simply painting details with maps. It's actually a very efficient alternative to doing the details in voxels, but I tend to do all I can in Voxels and just bake it all out.

You could save all the detailing to the very last, and do it all in Surface mode, that way you can go ahead and take advantage of LiveClay (dynamic tessellation like Sculptris), not in Beta.

Thank you so much for your many tips! I have much to try the next time I am able to work on this model! I really had no idea all of the features you mentioned were in 3DC. In particular, I am very interested in liveclay as I just started messing around with Sculptris awhile back...

Thanks for pointing out the crease... Actually I am having trouble with that area and need some reference... Most of this sculpt was done without solid reference, so it is lacking the realism I am after. This is a first pass, so I want to address that and other issues with pass two. The face is really rough, no eyes and very low detail.. probably due to not increasing the resolution of the voxel...

2 Questions:

1 - It sounds like you are getting great results out of the baking process. In fact, the process that I follow for 3DC came from one of your posts. The problem is, the results I am getting are no where near as good as those from TOPOGUN and ZBrush. I am sure it is a setting or option I am missing. Have you looked at these packages? If so are you able to get similar results out of the baking process in 3DC?

2 - I am interested in learning about live Normal Map depth painting and Displacement painting. Can you point me to a video or post that explains the process?

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Wow, great start.

I don't know how I'd work on such a model.

Some parts may don't need as much resolution as others.

In voxel room, I'd probably separate head, trunk, legs

and arms to avoid slow down by increasing the whole resolution.

Can't wait to see more. Good luck with it.

thanks! As for splitting the model - is that accomplised by masking of parts of the model? I would love to have the ability to hide aspects of the model (like in ZBrush where masks are used to hide details not being addressed) but was not able to find a way to do that in Voxel mode. How is that done in 3DC?

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The problem is, the results I am getting are no where near as good as those from TOPOGUN and ZBrush

Are you using MicroVertex mode for baking? The only way to have nice displacement maps.

If yes, post some captures from MV settings palettes.

Lets make clear that: in Zbrush, when you read 8M points density, it means 16M quads or 32M tris.

To have same hi frequency details in 3dcoat-voxels mode, 32M density then. You don't really have to do this. I believe a 3-15M voxel will produce nice displ maps in paint room, depending on the subject. You can add hi frequency details using alphas painting, similar to zbrush process.

Excellent sculpting skills, great start :clapping:

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Hi jamdalu,

your model looks really good already, i like espacially the lower part of the Body and the Face :) nice shapes there.

If, you get that likeness to the upper body it will turn out great i think.

For baking and adding fine details like michalis said, i would stick with Microvertex mode.

A plus of microvertex u can reorganize your uv map to get multiple uv tiles and assign that to your merged model in the paintroom to get more detail in some parts.

Later u can export a highres and lowpoly mesh from the paintroom, with Color, Normalmap and so on.

I think the models could further be used to build a Multiresolutionmodel in Zbrush.

michalis did some of this things, if i'm right

I also prefer the resample feature in vxl model, to increase resolution.

The mesh quality is much better an you're not dependent of a fixed vxl density.

Keep it up!

regards

Markus

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Thank you so much for your many tips! I have much to try the next time I am able to work on this model! I really had no idea all of the features you mentioned were in 3DC. In particular, I am very interested in liveclay as I just started messing around with Sculptris awhile back...

Thanks for pointing out the crease... Actually I am having trouble with that area and need some reference... Most of this sculpt was done without solid reference, so it is lacking the realism I am after. This is a first pass, so I want to address that and other issues with pass two. The face is really rough, no eyes and very low detail.. probably due to not increasing the resolution of the voxel...

2 Questions:

1 - It sounds like you are getting great results out of the baking process. In fact, the process that I follow for 3DC came from one of your posts. The problem is, the results I am getting are no where near as good as those from TOPOGUN and ZBrush. I am sure it is a setting or option I am missing. Have you looked at these packages? If so are you able to get similar results out of the baking process in 3DC?

2 - I am interested in learning about live Normal Map depth painting and Displacement painting. Can you point me to a video or post that explains the process?

I've actually been getting great results merging to Per Pixel Painting (working with live Normal Maps with your depth channel...and you can stack layers of Normal Map/Bump detail), but the few times I've tried with MicroVertex, the results aren't so good. This is something we have been talking with Andrew about and he is currently addressing. Some changes have been made in 3.5.22A

I usually select "Merge Vertices" in the baking dialogue. I noticed some time ago that the model came out fine with it checked and not so good without it checked. Since then, it's been a habit. I don't want any overlapping verts anyway. Another tip is to right click on the voxel layers and select "Fill Voids." This (hidden holes within the model) can sometimes cause havoc with the baking process.

As for splitting your model up in the Voxel Room. Use the Split tool and in the E-Panel use the freeform, spline, etc. selection tools to make the split. Once done, 3DC will take that split section and move it to it's own layer. Now, go to the Voxels Menu (up top) and under proxy visualization, you have different Cache levels. Remember, the higher the number, the lower you are stepping down in resolution/polycount. If you simply want to preserve RAM and don't plan to do any work on a layer for a while, you can set it at x8. If you simply want the performance boost where voxels tend to start slowing down, then x2 or x4 would be the better options.

You can set hotkeys for them individually, by holding your cursor over the selection and hitting the END key. Then chose which key you want to assign. I have mine set up using the arrow keys. "Toggle Proxy Mode" is the UP arrow key. And I set the 3 levels of degradation on the bottom 3 arrow keys, x2/x4/x8 from left to right. This way I don't have to peek to see what the current setting is. I can just hit the hotkey for the level I want and then hit the UP arrow key to toggle in and out of Proxy mode (this is your Multi-Resolution and it works a treat). This is similar to Mudbox's SHIFT+D (create a SubD level) and the PAGE UP/PAGE DOWN hotkeys to step between those levels. Each method of Multi-Resolution has it's benefits and drawbacks.

Mudbox locks you in to a SubD level on any given layer, once you start working on that layer. You can't go higher unless you create a new layer and assign it a higher level. Not a major pain, but it's not the Holy Grail either. In Voxels you can go higher (Res+ or Resample) at any given time on any layer and you can step down at any given time. If you want to layer your details, in a non-destructive fashion, that is better done in the Paint Room, where you can go Hog-Wild with layers and layers of detail that you can adjust the opacity, blending mode and depth of any individual layer. Voxels are a bit more linear in that regard.

If you REALLY need to dump some RAM, to reach uber-high levels of detail, you can split the model and save the individual layers to a .3b (native 3D Coat) file. If a layer has sub layers, you can opt to save them intact in the same hierarchy...by right-clicking the layer and choosing save to .3b file with Subtree. Once done, you can now delete those layers and merge them back in whenever you need them. Same position, same scale, shader, etc. Another handy option works almost identical to the way Subtools work in ZBrush. You can drag and drop any layer into the Models or Splines pallet. You will see a dialogue that lets you set the resolution for 3DC to save as an obj. Once done, you know have the layer saved as an obj in the pallet with a corresponding thumbnail. Again, if you want to save RAM, you can delete the layer now, and merge with either method, when you need them back in the scene.

In fact, if you plan to export your character as a body mesh with the Head separate (to create Morphs/Blendshaps with and such), you can really jack the resolution up in the head section, for example...with the added bonus obviously being that it will have it's own texture UV map = more texture resolution. If you leave the really high res detail for LiveClay, you don't need to go back to Voxel Volume, and can retopo with the model in Surface mode. LiveClay is really sweet for that kind of purpose. Really smooth and fast.

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To cut your model in different parts,

you can use the "Cut and clone" tool,

then put the parts in different layers.

There are other ways probably, wich I don't know about...

Good luck for the normal map baking.

Because I don't know much about 3dc baking,

and didn't manage to get precise Ambiant occlusion and NM,

I usually convert voxels in dense quads, then

make a baking in Xnormal.

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Taking all of the tips into consideration, I think the model is starting to look a little better now... The main thing I did was increase the voxel resolution... I still have alot of work to do and am interested in continued comments. Thanks!

post-6440-0-63917500-1310705218_thumb.pn

post-6440-0-27368700-1310705536_thumb.pn

post-6440-0-03975500-1310705574_thumb.pn

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My favorite! -> http://developer.amd.com/archive/gpu/MeshMapper/pages/default.aspx

Very good quality baking with the right options to tweak visual issues, if any. The AO baking also is much better than 3DC.

I was not aware of this tool - it looks very intersting. Too bad there is not a Mac version. Now that 3DC is 64 bit for Mac OS, I am in windows as much(I am loving the 64 bit stability by the way). Still, this is something I will definately try out when I have this model done. Thank you for sharing this link!!!

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To cut your model in different parts,

you can use the "Cut and clone" tool,

then put the parts in different layers.

There are other ways probably, wich I don't know about...

Good luck for the normal map baking.

Because I don't know much about 3dc baking,

and didn't manage to get precise Ambiant occlusion and NM,

I usually convert voxels in dense quads, then

make a baking in Xnormal.

Thanks for the tip. I was not aware of the cut and copy tool. I stopped looking when I found a way to delete stuff by using grow, in combo with lasso and control key.

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Hi jamdalu,

your model looks really good already, i like espacially the lower part of the Body and the Face :) nice shapes there.

If, you get that likeness to the upper body it will turn out great i think.

For baking and adding fine details like michalis said, i would stick with Microvertex mode.

A plus of microvertex u can reorganize your uv map to get multiple uv tiles and assign that to your merged model in the paintroom to get more detail in some parts.

Later u can export a highres and lowpoly mesh from the paintroom, with Color, Normalmap and so on.

I think the models could further be used to build a Multiresolutionmodel in Zbrush.

michalis did some of this things, if i'm right

I also prefer the resample feature in vxl model, to increase resolution.

The mesh quality is much better an you're not dependent of a fixed vxl density.

Keep it up!

regards

Markus

What is the process for getting voxel sculpt to microvertex? Does it work with voxels or do I need to export mesh and re-import? I have to say that the whole "room" concept is a little confusing to a new user when the model does not persist in all views...

Please take a look at the new screenshots of the model and let me know what you think... The legs are messed up now.. but I think the torso is starting to look a little better. Thanks again for your help.

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I've actually been getting great results merging to Per Pixel Painting (working with live Normal Maps with your depth channel...and you can stack layers of Normal Map/Bump detail), but the few times I've tried with MicroVertex, the results aren't so good. This is something we have been talking with Andrew about and he is currently addressing.
- How to merge? I have been doing export to obj and re-import?
I usually select "Merge Vertices" in the baking dialogue. I noticed some time ago that the model came out fine with it checked and not so good without it checked. Since then, it's been a habit. I don't want any overlapping verts anyway. Another tip is to right click on the voxel layers and select "Fill Voids." This (hidden holes within the model) can sometimes cause havoc with the baking process.

- Excellent!! Thanks for this tip... I have expeienced issues with unknown holes within the model and using the fill tool to "seal cracks" is a pain at times...
As for splitting your model up in the Voxel Room. Use the Split tool and in the E-Panel use the freeform, spline, etc. selection tools to make the split. Once done, 3DC will take that split section and move it to it's own layer. Now, go to the Voxels Menu (up top) and under proxy visualization, you have different Cache levels. Remember, the higher the number, the lower you are stepping down in resolution/polycount. If you simply want to preserve RAM and don't plan to do any work on a layer for a while, you can set it at x8. If you simply want the performance boost where voxels tend to start slowing down, then x2 or x4 would be the better options.

You can set hotkeys for them individually, by holding your cursor over the selection and hitting the END key. Then chose which key you want to assign. I have mine set up using the arrow keys. "Toggle Proxy Mode" is the UP arrow key. And I set the 3 levels of degradation on the bottom 3 arrow keys, x2/x4/x8 from left to right. This way I don't have to peek to see what the current setting is. I can just hit the hotkey for the level I want and then hit the UP arrow key to toggle in and out of Proxy mode (this is your Multi-Resolution and it works a treat). This is similar to Mudbox's SHIFT+D (create a SubD level) and the PAGE UP/PAGE DOWN hotkeys to step between those levels. Each method of Multi-Resolution has it's benefits and drawbacks.

Mudbox locks you in to a SubD level on any given layer, once you start working on that layer. You can't go higher unless you create a new layer and assign it a higher level. Not a major pain, but it's not the Holy Grail either. In Voxels you can go higher (Res+ or Resample) at any given time on any layer and you can step down at any given time. If you want to layer your details, in a non-destructive fashion, that is better done in the Paint Room, where you can go Hog-Wild with layers and layers of detail that you can adjust the opacity, blending mode and depth of any individual layer. Voxels are a bit more linear in that regard.

If you REALLY need to dump some RAM, to reach uber-high levels of detail, you can split the model and save the individual layers to a .3b (native 3D Coat) file. If a layer has sub layers, you can opt to save them intact in the same hierarchy...by right-clicking the layer and choosing save to .3b file with Subtree. Once done, you can now delete those layers and merge them back in whenever you need them. Same position, same scale, shader, etc. Another handy option works almost identical to the way Subtools work in ZBrush. You can drag and drop any layer into the Models or Splines pallet. You will see a dialogue that lets you set the resolution for 3DC to save as an obj. Once done, you know have the layer saved as an obj in the pallet with a corresponding thumbnail. Again, if you want to save RAM, you can delete the layer now, and merge with either method, when you need them back in the scene.

- More good stuff - thank you so much for the help... This really solves some workflow issues for me....
In fact, if you plan to export your character as a body mesh with the Head separate (to create Morphs/Blendshaps with and such), you can really jack the resolution up in the head section, for example...with the added bonus obviously being that it will have it's own texture UV map = more texture resolution. If you leave the really high res detail for LiveClay, you don't need to go back to Voxel Volume, and can retopo with the model in Surface mode. LiveClay is really sweet for that kind of purpose. Really smooth and fast.

Thanks again for your help!!!! Your comments are so greatly appreciated. You saved me lots of time and transformed the way I will work in 3DC going forward. Starting to forget ZB!!!

I posted some new screen shots... let me know what you think of the progress. Pay attention to the torso... The legs and head are in mid stream...

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You may be able to glean some info from this video, where I show a more traditional workflow, merging in a base, low poly mesh...detail and bake the details onto the maps of your choice. Instead of creating a Retopo mesh from scratch, you will simply import the same one you merged into the Voxel Room...into the Retopo Room. You'll be immediately prompted whether you want to snap it or not. In your case, you may be retopo'ing from scratch. Once done you can just pick where the mesh is snapped in the video. You're at the same stage at this point. Do your UV's real quick (3DC's UV tools are among the best in my opinion...they usually come out right the first try, if you unwrap while it is still low-med poly. You can add more edgeloops or subD and your UV's will still work fine (just click Update Islands after making those changes).

Now you are ready to go to the Retop menu and choose which mode you want to work out of...Per Pixel Painting (Normal Map editing), Micro Vertex (Displacement map editing). You have Ptex, but frankly, I never use it. Making your own UV's is already so quick and you have full control over how much texture space each island gets. PTex might be great if you have a bunch of characters to knock out and want to shave out the UV process. But to me, it's not all that practical.

Andrew is currently working on baking improvements, so we'll see how that develops. As for the Rooms. You could call them Workspaces, too. Just think if it in these terms. Voxel and Retopo workspaces are relatively linked together, as the Paint, (Poly) Sculpt, and UV Workspaces are linked. You have nearly the same UV tools in theRetopo Room, in order to do your UV's before you send the model to the Paint Room. Once there, you can use the UV Room to make further adjustments to the UV map if needed.

Obviously, if you are working on a voxel model, you don't yet have a mesh with UV's to paint on, and conversely...if you import a mesh into the Paint Room, you don't have a voxel model to sculpt on. So that's why you don't see your model in every room.

http://youtu.be/bD0-bZKNrvU

This one might help explain how to manage your system resources smartly, so you can work at higher levels of detail on your active layer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ZJX9Nfy8w

Please pardon the narration...was a first for me, and was just trying to bring up some pointers that no one else had yet raised.

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Hi jamdalu, sry my explanation was a little short.

In general Microvertex, Ptex, Perpixel relates all to the PaintRoom.

So after you have the Retopo done of your vxl mesh you can merging via Micorvertex mode into the Paintroom

to get a projected quadmesh of your vxl file.

You find this Dialog in the RetopoRoom/ Menu Retopo/ Merge into Scene (Microvertex)

The upper Body looks better now, nice progress :)

Maybe u can add some more variation to the abs, for example the side part of the abs could be little more relaxed.

But it depends on what you aiming for.

The form of the legs are still there, a little cleanup and you got them back :).

Of course you can also merge the old legform to the Body, AbnRanger posted some nice tips here.

regards

Markus

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You may be able to glean some info from this video, where I show a more traditional workflow, merging in a base, low poly mesh...detail and bake the details onto the maps of your choice. Instead of creating a Retopo mesh from scratch, you will simply import the same one you merged into the Voxel Room...into the Retopo Room. You'll be immediately prompted whether you want to snap it or not. In your case, you may be retopo'ing from scratch. Once done you can just pick where the mesh is snapped in the video. You're at the same stage at this point. Do your UV's real quick (3DC's UV tools are among the best in my opinion...they usually come out right the first try, if you unwrap while it is still low-med poly. You can add more edgeloops or subD and your UV's will still work fine (just click Update Islands after making those changes).

Now you are ready to go to the Retop menu and choose which mode you want to work out of...Per Pixel Painting (Normal Map editing), Micro Vertex (Displacement map editing). You have Ptex, but frankly, I never use it. Making your own UV's is already so quick and you have full control over how much texture space each island gets. PTex might be great if you have a bunch of characters to knock out and want to shave out the UV process. But to me, it's not all that practical.

Andrew is currently working on baking improvements, so we'll see how that develops. As for the Rooms. You could call them Workspaces, too. Just think if it in these terms. Voxel and Retopo workspaces are relatively linked together, as the Paint, (Poly) Sculpt, and UV Workspaces are linked. You have nearly the same UV tools in theRetopo Room, in order to do your UV's before you send the model to the Paint Room. Once there, you can use the UV Room to make further adjustments to the UV map if needed.

Obviously, if you are working on a voxel model, you don't yet have a mesh with UV's to paint on, and conversely...if you import a mesh into the Paint Room, you don't have a voxel model to sculpt on. So that's why you don't see your model in every room.

http://youtu.be/bD0-bZKNrvU

This one might help explain how to manage your system resources smartly, so you can work at higher levels of detail on your active layer:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Q7ZJX9Nfy8w

Please pardon the narration...was a first for me, and was just trying to bring up some pointers that no one else had yet raised.

These are very good!!! Thanks man!

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Hi jamdalu, sry my explanation was a little short.

In general Microvertex, Ptex, Perpixel relates all to the PaintRoom.

So after you have the Retopo done of your vxl mesh you can merging via Micorvertex mode into the Paintroom

to get a projected quadmesh of your vxl file.

You find this Dialog in the RetopoRoom/ Menu Retopo/ Merge into Scene (Microvertex)

The upper Body looks better now, nice progress :)

Maybe u can add some more variation to the abs, for example the side part of the abs could be little more relaxed.

But it depends on what you aiming for.

The form of the legs are still there, a little cleanup and you got them back :).

Of course you can also merge the old legform to the Body, AbnRanger posted some nice tips here.

regards

Markus

Thanks for your tips and suggestions. I reworked the abs and made them less symmetrical... I will also add more fat to soften the sides as suggested...

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Progress update renders. I was able to make lots of improvements since initial post thanks to your tips and help. Increasing voxel density really helped me gain control of the surface. Your comments are appreciated.

That is looking pretty tight. Don't forget to give the hands and feet a lot of attention...if you plan to make this a demo reel piece. The overall sculpt is really nice, but they will certainly be looking for attention to details. I think you've nailed it pretty good in all areas but those.
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That is looking pretty tight. Don't forget to give the hands and feet a lot of attention...if you plan to make this a demo reel piece. The overall sculpt is really nice, but they will certainly be looking for attention to details. I think you've nailed it pretty good in all areas but those.

Thanks!!! You have been very helpful!!! I will address those areas next.

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