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Now everybody in zbrushcentral will post a wolfman. The age of zombies and baldy heros ended. It was about time.

@garagarape

And other friends. You didn't get it right. These are real meshes and can be exported. See what's happening in the end of this video. You can use low def "particles like". This may be a great modeler for plants. We better wait and test it.

Now zb has a nice renderer with a kind of SSS, hair, this makes this app more capable for lot of jobs.

Not that bad renderer, see here.

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?164247

You possibly remember this "Lara Croft" illustration/presentation. Where 3dCoat was in use... this can be done in zbrush only. More or less.

True. But it is mostly useful for concept art.

IMO, this may be the most important. Especially when this art isn't useless for more treatment. To follow the usual workflow. Or any new one.

About this 3dcoat vs Zb thing. It's completely pointless.

3DC will never be a competitor to zb. It's a completely different approach.

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There are also folks who use it for illustration work (A lot of people) who don't care about having to pass it to some other 3d app. Not going to get into the who did what first nonsense.

Its all irrelevant but just shows some people don't see the bigger picture and seem to want to start a mine is bigger type war.

Both apps are brilliant at what they do and from someone who owns both the more they compete with each other the better for me. :)

Mike

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Let's be serious now.

Voxels can produce very complicated meshes, very interesting and wonderful.

Impossible or extremely complicated to retopo them. I say impossible for 3dcoat.

What about these? They don't exist because of game industry says so? This is the present and not the future. In one or two years these game methods will be updated. They have to because they don't look good.

About cinema, everything is possible, you may see a 5-10 sec scene and it will be a zb render/animated there alright. But in most regular cases they gonna ask you for a quality over 8M displacement map. Can 3dcoat do this?

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I agree with Mykyl, arguing over which program is better or who copied whom is pointless. Many ideas are obvious and universal, and building one idea on top of another has always been how technology evolves. Each app has their own unique strengths and weaknesses, and it really is a win win situation for those who are willing to get over their fanboy mentality (which we've all been guilty of at one point or another) and use both, provided they can afford it. I also like what 3DArtist said about adding a "Paint Instances" brush, provided I'm understanding this correctly. The video showing off the new instance feature in 3.7 was really interesting and I'm looking forward to playing around with it.

I've actually been thinking about buying 3D Coat on an off for about a year now, especially right now with the current sale price. I've been doing odd jobs here and there, like shoveling sidewalks, for the past month to help cover the costs of this holiday season and I have just enough left over to buy 3DC if I so desire. I just need to be sure it's what I really want to blow that last of my spending money on. I'm also worried that 4.0 may be right around the corner, in which case I'd be better off putting the money away until then so I can avoid having to pay the additional upgrade fee so soon after. Does any have a rough idea on when that might be?

From browsing this site, my impression is that 3DC can do everything ZB can and potentially a whole lot more. That and it seems to be updated a lot more often by a developer whom is clearly paying close attention to what users have to say regarding bugs and requests. What I really love is that It has a ton of features I wish ZBrush had, things I know are going to become the norm as time progresses (ptex, vector displacement, etc).

There are a couple things holding me back though. When I last tried the demo (version 3.5 I think) I had a lot of trouble figuring things out, even with the popup help. Auto-retopo was especially misbehaved. Eventually I grew frustrated and gave up. You'd think 3DC would be easy to grasp as a user coming from ZB, but for some reason that wasn't the case. I doubt it's a failing of 3DC though and more likely my age is to blame lol. Probably the biggest strength ZB seems to have over 3DC is it's popularity. Pixologic is very good at creating hype and their forum, being very artist friendly, may partly account for that. While there are a some videos here and there which cover the varying versions of 3DC, there are a lot more third party video tutorials available for ZB. So I have to ask, are there any comprehensive A to Z tutorials out there for 3.5/3.7 like ZB seems to get with every new release? I've been watching the Lynda.com one for Blender 2.6 on Youtube, the quality and coverage of which being a really good example of what I feel makes an excellent, easy to understand video tutorial.

One final question for now; if I install the latest demo for 3.7, will I be able to use it for 30 days or will I have problems because of version 3.5 which used to be installed on my system? Thanks! :)

PS: Sorry if I didn't search hard enough for my own answers before posting. I'm still relatively new here and only just getting to know this website and a feel for the type of folks who frequent it. I'll operate on the assumption you're all a bit forgiving when it comes to 3DC noobs like me. ;)

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Andrew, has not given a time frame on the version 4.0 release.

I do agree very much that each program has it's strengths. Similar to Photoshop vs other paint programs. It really depends how you plan to use the software knowing it's intergration into the industry. Both Photoshop and Zbrush are very well intergrated. There are other paint programs that are quite good but Photoshop is used in most industry shops, so you best learn Photoshop. The same goes for with ZBrush or Maya. 3DCoat is used but not as widely as Zbrush. 3DCoat carves it's own territory though not as large as Zbrush. This is not a negative reflection upon 3DCoat but more of how businesses work. How well software is Intergrated into the industry drives sales though of course not entirely...

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Interesting comments from Zeddicus re ZBrush.

Pixologic had to work very hard to gather the support they currently have - and they went about it in a very intelligent way. Just as ZBrush 2 was released, they made quite an effort to get some of the most talented artists out there to jump on board - by essentially giving them the software for free, on the proviso that they'd make something cool with it. Whilst this may seem unfair to the great majority (those who pay), getting the best people on board to help create artwork that essentially becomes your marketing material is a great move to garner attention. Many of the artists good enough to reach the standard they were looking for had clearly invested many years of hard work already, so it made sense to give them the software and let them push it to its limits. Perhaps an interesting angle for Andrew to consider?

Currently, the majority of artwork in the 3D Coat gallery doesn't reflect the quality of the software. I feel Andrew should be more selective about what he uses for promotional purposes and look to present 3D Coat in a more professional way. Of course, I am talking about the superficial elements but if that's what it takes for Andrew and Pilgway to stay in business and take 3D Coat to the next level then one shouldn't underestimate the importance of good presentation in every aspect (3D Coat's transform gizmos make it look like software for children). it's clearly a catch-22 for Pilgway because they're such a small team - if they're paying more attention to the presentation and marketing of 3D Coat then they're probably sacrificing the real work of improving the software (which isn't good either so their focus right now is probably correct).

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I want to see better how much control you can have on the fiber(clumping,parting,and so on),it seems brushes can help a lot here.

I think made it well it's a really useful feature for concept art,but also for previz the character you are doing better(and also for pure illustration/still of course).

Zbrush is much more than a sculpting application,it's an application made to do visual art with it,Pixologic has been skilled to improve and promote the program also as a great sculpting application but when they started I think the major interest was to promote their pixols 2.5 engine,funny to think that now nobody(or really few people) use it.

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The last part of this video, plants, is confusing. It seems that some kind of instances is happening, I can't figure out.

Having a closer look on this video, it seems that after applying this 'modifier' there's no go back. You can stretch the mesh (move tool) but there isn't any cut, grow, etc then. I wonder how I can treat a human head, a beard for instance. A nice shader does all the trick, I think I can do a lot just exporting particles-hair from blender, as quad mesh. Zb can handle huge amounts of poly so no problem here.

This example, when testing sculptris Goz Zbrush beta. Hair imported from blender.

m2.jpg

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@John Kearney

Pixo asked for artists because they had an artistic tool to provide.

To try to construct an app that says, "all you less talented, you can do it anyway" isn't something that has future.

In place of artists we have some geniuses on building good for animation cages. Sorry, I can't follow this.

Cages are... cages and this is all about it.

I learned how to construct my own cage, long time ago. I also learned how to retopo too. What is great on this?

I worked on DTP many years. As a photographer too. I earned 10 times more money taking photos, though I spent 10x time for DTP. You know why? Because as a photographer I was an artist. Though DTP involves art as well.

My 5 cents.

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The last part of this video, plants, is confusing. It seems that some kind of instances is happening, I can't figure out.

Having a closer look on this video, it seems that after applying this 'modifier' there's no go back.

I'm sure you'll be able to create hair as it's own subtool, allowing you to try out any number of radically different hair styles. The plant at the end is indeed interesting. It's looks as if the red "hairs" are replaced with a painted polymesh of a fruit. Unfortunately how this is done is skipped over in the video. It certainly does seem like some kind of instancing is going on. I'd hazard a guess that instancing is something Pixologic probably now desires, especially after seeing 3DC's new implementation of it. It allows the user to save a lot of time if changes are later required, plus you don't have to worry about symmetry if the instanced polymesh is scattered around the scene in a non-symmetrical way. Makes sense seeing as their core philosophy seems to involve making things both easier and less time consuming for the artist. Then there is the array aspect which in ZBrush seems to be limited to 2.5d pixols only (stroke palette with edit turned off). For example, any tools you draw out using the grid stroke cannot be turned into a polymesh.

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I like to think in terms of does a software help in the creation process for the individual artist.

One artist will swear by Zbrush or Photoshop, another artist by different programs. I believe our likes or dislikes of a program is more based on how our mind works and the way we go about creating our art. Photoshop feels so mechanical to me.Twistedbrush flows and works in away that is more alive to me. That is in all truth more with how my mind works than the software. Another artist could very well say the same thing about Photoshop vs Twistedbrush. Some like different modeling programs, I enjoy Hexagon, some 3dMax, others use different programs.

ZBrush established an early industry intergration,for the gaming industry,movies and artist in general. If you were a college student,you would not learnTwistedbrush but Photoshop because that is what the industry shops use. You will see more quality photoshop work online than any other and you will see more quality ZBrush work than any other as a larger percentage of trained skilled artist use those programs. This in turn helps to drive sales. Zbrush has done as good job of keeping its client base and expanding. A good business model because in the end it is a business on their side though they might have artists in the company...

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Agree with Digman.

All depend on what is your aim, and how many time you can dedicate to it.

If you are retired, that your children are grown up and that you have plenty of time,

learning a tortuous software that enable you to create wonderful things is fine.

In my case, because we have deadlines at work, efficiency, balance between quality

and the time you used is the critical point.

3dCoat, in my opinion is less time consuming and is more easy to learn.

During the first year, young people in my company are to learn about UI design,

"classic" modeling and other stuff like rigging in Maya, animation, FX, motion, 2d...

Trust me, no time to integrate tortuous workflows. We bought 3dCoat licences and

everybody is really happy with it.

That doesn't mean that I'm in war against ZB or other softs. I found it pretty cool. I'll probably buy it when I'm rich and retired :)

Besides, though the "all in one" 3dCoat concept is really a great thing, I keep on using "Crazy Bump" or "Xnormal's filters" to gain time.

It is just to save time. For example: painting cavity is more time consuming than converting normal map into cavity map.

I do not like the idea of a ZB-Mbox-3dCoat war. But it is happening because it is business.

At least I'd like things to be more peaceful on this forum. Too much polemics kills polemics :)

Finally, I'd like 3dCoat not to loose it's spirit. No need to copy other soft "classy" UI.

Simple UI and efficient tools are fine.

Good new year's eve to all!

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@John Kearney

Pixo asked for artists because they had an artistic tool to provide.

To try to construct an app that says, "all you less talented, you can do it anyway" isn't something that has future.

In place of artists we have some geniuses on building good for animation cages. Sorry, I can't follow this.

Cages are... cages and this is all about it.

I learned how to construct my own cage, long time ago. I also learned how to retopo too. What is great on this?

I worked on DTP many years. As a photographer too. I earned 10 times more money taking photos, though I spent 10x time for DTP. You know why? Because as a photographer I was an artist. Though DTP involves art as well.

My 5 cents.

I remember when Zbrush was lesser known in the CG community than 3D Coat is now, and 3D Coat is developing at a much faster rate, so what is your point here? That the only people who use 3D Coat are the less talented bunch? There are two kinds of people who complain. Those who do so, in order to simply belittle someone/something...in this case we are talking about software. Then those who do so in a constructive context...wanting the perceived problems to be fixed.

It seems to me, that you often fall into the first category. One minute you are happy, and the next you are messing with the developer's (Raul in particular) head with a barrage of cynicism. Maybe you'll bless us, this holiday season, by joining the "real" artists over at ZBrush Central...and wearing them out for a while. I know that won't happen, but a guy can make a New Year's wish, can't he?

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so what is your point here? That the only people who use 3D Coat are the less talented bunch?

I didn't mean that. But the lack of the simple basic tools for sculpting, here we come to Raul's work, make it impossible for me to sculpt in a spontaneous way. Though there're lot of silly implementations that have little use in real sculpting.

Abn, I'm facing this issue, to be able to sculpt in voxels mode but not in surf mode.

Dynamic tessellation makes tools to behave differently a bit. Now, compare sculptris tools with all this massive tool palette in 3dcoat-surf mode.

Compare the new swirl tool of LC demonstration video with the rotate tool of sculptris. This last, well, you can change the pivot point, can work globally, can be a posing tool but it can also work as swirl-tool in a beautiful way. There isn't such a nice tool in Zb either. (Zswirl is similar to Raul's version)

The draw tool: there isn't such in 3dcoat. Exists in any other app I know.

When I suggested Raul to start sculpting seriously, this is not cynicism.

But when a developer's reply on my wish lists is "why do you need this?" this may be cynicism from one point of view. My answer is "sculpt a lot first, you'll understand where is the issue"

Sculpt a lot having a subject, try to be precise, not just doodling, lost in random abstract happenings.

I wish I could construct my tools. This may be possible soon. I'm not sure. Not so optimist...

@Abn, I tried to reply on this "pixologic's policy, how to gather all the artists etc etc" thing. Not to start a debate.

They try hard to provide the right tools. Tools for art.

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@John Kearney

Pixo asked for artists because they had an artistic tool to provide.

To try to construct an app that says, "all you less talented, you can do it anyway" isn't something that has future.

In place of artists we have some geniuses on building good for animation cages. Sorry, I can't follow this.

Cages are... cages and this is all about it.

I learned how to construct my own cage, long time ago. I also learned how to retopo too. What is great on this?

I worked on DTP many years. As a photographer too. I earned 10 times more money taking photos, though I spent 10x time for DTP. You know why? Because as a photographer I was an artist. Though DTP involves art as well.

My 5 cents.

Hi Michalis, if I'm completely honest I'm not too sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Am I correct in saying that you believe 3D Coat *isn't* an 'artistic tool'? If so, I disagree and feel that talented artists can create awesome art with 3D Coat in its current form. It's a little rough around the edges and does need some refinement but it's definitely getting there. Pilgway have taken huge strides in a relatively short amount of time but it's incredibly important that users provide them with constructive feedback to ensure their direction remains focused.

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Hey John

I didn't make the point clear, sorry, difficult for me.

I didn't mean that 3dc isn't an artistic tool or course. How could I mean this when using it all the time? I don't mean either that I'm a good artist. LOL

To offer silly tools in place of the most important basic brushes, this is killing me. This goes to zbrush as well. Lot of ridiculous brushes there.

I can't answer a question like "what tool did you use for hair or for this drapery?" Not that easy. Just the basic tools and my studies on real sculpting and drawing. What else?

Just the basic tools... these under voxel mode for instance. Where are these under surf mode?

I use voxels for fast, spontaneous cuts, booleans, curves etc. Then, unfortunately, I have to jump to sculptris or zbrush. And come back for the rest later.

There're lot of interesting artists who work on illustrations. Though the 3dcoat render engine is great (better than BPR, closer to a ray tracer) is useless because of the lack of better lighting, easy export of masks (there's a trick here LOL) and a nice DOF map. Not a fake SSS thing as well. A fresnel trick too. To be able to directly paint on voxels (this is coming I think).

Voxels room is capable to produce very complicated meshes, beautiful but rather impossible to retopo and UV them. What does this mean? That they don't exist in this world of professionals game designers? They exist alright and they're closer to the future needs.

Invest in the future? Invest in artists. Listen what they say, their dreams. It's not a commercial game. It's reality.

I hope I made my point clear. IMO this is how pixologic wins. It's not technology, it's something deeper. They don't copy 3dcoat, only in our imagination.

Did they copy anything when implemented dynamesh? Do you see any marching cubes theory there? I wonder.

What about this one?

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Nicholasbishop/RemeshModifier

Do they all copy 3dcoat?

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Thanks for explaining!

To be honest, I actually agree with some of the points you have made but sometimes, it's nice to put them forward in a way that doesn't demoralise the developers! As with any job, I imagine the guys at Pilgway like to balance their bug fixing /mundane tasks with experimentation and new tools - sure, some may not be successful but it's an important part of the process.

Having recently used the paint room, I have found that many 'simple' tools don't work too well, and I'm not the only one as AbnRanger recently started a thread to raise the issues. For example, the fill/paint bucket tool isn't good at all and when you see effort being put into other 'fancy' tools that arguably aren't as important (surely the essential elements should be given priority?), it can become frustrating. However, Andrew has recently replied to the thread and it's clear he now understands the importance of tackling the issues raised. When there are problems and obvious issues that need resolved, it's important for everyone to clearly states why so that Pilgway can make informed decisions.

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@Taros

LOL, the link is already here, two pages back, but a debate started on what app is the best. Once again.

Another debate on how useful this fiber-mesh modifier is, started under this zbc fibermesh thread.

Indeed we can't say much before having it in our hands. Even for illustration use.

Once again we, no, I messed this thread. Apologies.

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Is this a thread about FiberMesh, or is it about ZB4R2 in general? It's your creation, michalis, so you'll have to tell us if we are indeed going off topic. :unsure:

Someone posted this link over there which I thought I'd share. I'm no mathematician or programmer, but couldn't this be implemented in 3D Coat? It could be an amazing tool when combined with the new instancing feature, especially if one is able to randomize placement asymmetrically. I'm still digging into 3DC so perhaps there is already a quick and easy way to create a lot of varying vegetation, and anything else vegetation-like that might prove beneficial to artists (hair and fur obviously). How about instancing within instancing? I'm thinking randomized leaves and fruit like at the end of the ZB FiberMesh preview. B)

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@Zeddicus

It's about zb4r2, feel free to write anything you like.

I just made a mistake, to reply on some zbrush-copies-3dcoat ideas and pixo's policy attracting artists, not using the appropriate way.

Not anyone else's mistake by all means.

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Ow... thank you Michalis. I've looked for the post but did't found it first.

About the discussion which App is better: No worth to discuss in my eyes. Every app has its advantages. No more to say.

If you can, use the app you need in the explicit challenge. If you can do it faster with zBrush: Use it. If 3D Coat solves your problem in a fast way, use this tool.

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