ZBrush R2

[digman]

My question would be this since also part of this discussion is around tools and techniques.

Is the expression as important as the tool. Is not expression the prelude to art itself. Can one tool or technique be anti-artistic and another not so. That is a real question, How does one qualify one tool or technique as being artistic in nature and another anti-artistic.

Western art uses the technique of shadow and shade and some eastern types of art use none. Why would you want to hide your face in a shadow unless your are disfigured or hide your scenery in shadows unless your land was marred...

Retopoing is mechanical as Michalis said but sharping a tool for stone sculpture is also mechanical in nature though a necessary part of the creation.I do realize that the drudgery of retopoing is after the creation process as sharping a stone tool is before but still both are mechanical. They serve their purpose even as the old way of grinding your own colors before painting. Working in the digital field my tools are always sharp but I have to do some mechanical servitude in the retopoing... or until we have the processing power to get rid of polygons.

Also in the discussion of anti-artistic we have yet to approach the subject of living in a production driven noisy mechanical age even more so than in the 1936 movie (Modern Times) by Charlie Chaplin. How has that lifestyle effected

our ability to create art. That is another whole topic of discussion.

[The Candy-floss Kid]

Ramp up the 3D Coat render room to allow accurate shadows in a more complex voxel environments , allow painting on voxels then the artists and illustrators will show work to kick ass. 3D Coat is not making enough of it's better rendering stage and perspective options. It astounds me that it doesn't grasp this. Think of ways to cache and be able to create complex voxel scenes with moveable lights.

Grasp this and 3D Coat will leap frog as a tool for creation and visualization.

[AbnRanger]

Ramp up the 3D Coat render room to allow accurate shadows in a more complex voxel environments , allow painting on voxels then the artists and illustrators will show work to kick ass. 3D Coat is not making enough of it's better rendering stage and perspective options. It astounds me that it doesn't grasp this. Think of ways to cache and be able to create complex voxel scenes with moveable lights.

Grasp this and 3D Coat will leap frog as a tool for creation and visualization.

I can't even use the render room in this build. It locks up even when turning on realtime renderer. Have to kill the program to get out of it. Leigh Bamforth reported this problem recently and it's even worse now.

[LJB]

I did Yes! I'm current;y using the RT preview instead as Phil suggested. Yup We need materials in Paint room and we need Render fixed, and we need Brush Tweaks. But I dont currently view 3DC as a rendering tool so I kinda just forget and Make doo. But yes these Render improvements would aid greatly in Showing your sculpts off and getting the Concepts out faster.

[michalis]

It's sad that you can't use the render room at this moment. Something related with cuda I guess. It was/is always working on mac versions.

3dcoat renderer isn't as bad! In fact it's better than zbrush BPR in some cases. More accurate shadow for instance.

You can use lot of lights and you can move them among some other interesting parameters. Crisper shadow casting, color of light.

If constructing and using flat strong color shaders, apply to sub objects... ha , a trick to have some nice masks for Ps-illustrations.

It's fast enough and can have larger resolution renders.

What is missing to make it a better illustration tool is to have depth mask exporter (DOF)

and of course the ability to paint on voxels or SF directly.

To go for retopo UVs etc and render this, isn't a great idea, as there're great renders already around.

Here an example, 10 mins in voxels, apply a shader, set up two lights, render. (all these using a simple old 32 bit build)

Something Impossible for zbrush 4R2.

When saying impossible, I mean it LOL

[Andrew Shpagin]

Wow! Really great skills!

You really inspiring me. Looking at the picture I got idea how to do some volume to be light source in scene.

[michalis]

Difficult to say why I like a renderer or not like it.

To tell the truth, I always liked 3dcoat renderer. Easy to set up and have some colorful images. It isn't a GI renderer, no sss effect, a weird UI when adjusting global contrast lighting, no export of DOF map, but I like it.

This renderer needs some more love, not from developers only, from users as well.

About this sss effect, is there a cool easy way for it? A fresnel , AO game maybe?

In zbrush, I had some similar SSS results playing with AO and fresnel. A trick. Exporting a second pass (different RIM lighting) and combining it in Ps (screen layer)

[michalis]

Oh and watching those Damn videos I felt that this Dynamesh was immidiate, Not quite, Nothing like Pixologic to make some obscure way to activate this tool like Masking outside the Sculpt to remesh. Its actually quite annoying when you have to Inmport and transpose multi objects. It happens before your ready if you loose the mask. Ists actually more of a shortcut script that an actual new tool. Don't be fooled by the hype.

It's the UI. hold alt as you merge, now to transpose mode, duplicate it as much you like (ctrl+ move from the middle circle), do as much copies you like. Then ctrl + drag on background twice. That's it.

Here comes, how many copies? We don't know the limit exactly, there's a number of copies that triggers a nasty bug. Not easy to replicate it but in zbc we confirmed it under both OSs.

I keep testing this r2 and already facing lot of possible bugs, it's unstable. Older shaders aren't compatible but some are. Lighting is unpredictable too. Dynamesh may create holes under certain circumstances, sometimes difficult to fix them. A "close holes" button isn't great on this. R2 crashes sometimes but it became impossible to recover in OSX build under certain circumstances again. Though auto recovery is on. When trying to retopo of course, where else?

[Francesco Mai]

Wow! Really great skills!

You really inspiring me. Looking at the picture I got idea how to do some volume to be light source in scene.

Great news!I believe that a better and strong rendering engine could make the difference.We need also that the shaders (if possible)

need more practical parameters.In my dream reflection and refraction inside 3D Coat render room!

But now come back to the main theme or rather Zbrush 4 R2.)I test for half an hour the new DynaMesh..Everybody know that it is a combo of scripts but at the end it makes a good work.

@Michalis.I ask to you because you are quite involved in this topic:A part the method you suggest for Sculpris which is,in your opinion the best way to have a clean topology from my sculptures (you know that they are everything except bipeds,faces,robots and so on) from pure dense quads VOxel (10/20 million polygon) to Zbrush DynaMEsh and try to maintain the maximum details?I found that an method is to convert the mesh in DynaMesh AFTER a good decimation with DEcimation MAster.By the way any suggestion for the menu DynaMEsh proprieties?I see that there are some parameters that are possible to change...Thanks in advance!

[michalis]

@francesco

Why to decimate?

1. Just bring dense quads in zbrush.

2. Duplicate it under tools palette-layer like

3. Activate dynamesh on the copy. Try lower possible settings to capture the basic topology (watch carefully on spikes and holes areas). Try to keep dynamesh less than ~50-70K

Here you are. Subdivide it as needed (~5M I could say) or more.

Use project all to snap it on the original densequad mesh. Watch carefully the "distance" parameter near Project button. By default is 0.02, try 0.2 to 1 values. Undo and retry.

Here you have all the details from voxels on a multi resolution mesh. There're new slice tools that help you to divide it to groups. Use UV master (enable group support) and have a map for baking, transferring polypaint or go back in 3dcoat for PPP if you like.

If you like my quasi retopo trick and use it, then you may start using 3dcoat for retopo. LOL I know that you find it boring.

Knowing your work though, you may like change your concept as you work, dramatically. In this case and under heavy details, dynamesh won't help you at all. Just hit dynamesh and lose all details.

This is what I call UI, a close to possible workflows environment. Pixologic didn't make the miracle as expected after the first video. Just another helpful tool for characters design.

[Francesco Mai]

@Michalis

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation..I run to test!

[The Candy-floss Kid]

@francesco

Why to decimate?

1. Just bring dense quads in zbrush.

2. Duplicate it under tools palette-layer like

3. Activate dynamesh on the copy. Try lower possible settings to capture the basic topology (watch carefully on spikes and holes areas). Try to keep dynamesh less than ~50-70K

Here you are. Subdivide it as needed (~5M I could say) or more.

Use project all to snap it on the original densequad mesh. Watch carefully the "distance" parameter near Project button. By default is 0.02, try 0.2 to 1 values. Undo and retry.

Here you have all the details from voxels on a multi resolution mesh. There're new slice tools that help you to divide it to groups. Use UV master (enable group support) and have a map for baking, transferring polypaint or go back in 3dcoat for PPP if you like.

If you like my quasi retopo trick and use it, then you may start using 3dcoat for retopo. LOL I know that you find it boring.

Knowing your work though, you may like change your concept as you work, dramatically. In this case and under heavy details, dynamesh won't help you at all. Just hit dynamesh and lose all details.

This is what I call UI, a close to possible workflows environment. Pixologic didn't make the miracle as expected after the first video. Just another helpful tool for characters design.

Many thanks Michalis for your insights. Would you consider sharing your insights for the community as a narrated video series on Vimeo?

[Francesco Mai]

@Michalis

I try your suggestion about retopo with Dynamesh and IT WORKS VERY WELL!

There is only a little problem:if I have a 50/70k and divided until some millions (as you kindly suggested) after the projection there are strange spikes artefacts (I try every distance from 0 to 1!).Instead if I start with a hi res mesh(dynameshed at 1024) I have PERFECT and VERY CLEAN resulting

mesh!.Any ideas?IT is a problem of UV,store target.I don't know what I think.I try also to fix mesh,holes etc before Projection.It's not a great problem:at the end anyway I obtain a very clean mesh but as you can well understand, I prefer have a multi res mesh instead that a only,big one in polygons!

Thank you again if you have some time to answer me

[michalis]

@ The Candy-floss Kid , Francesco

There's no need for such video I think. It's so simple. Spikes? Yes Francesco, this method isn't perfect. Projection of dynamesh at 1024 works I guess but its a bit useless.

Dynamesh hasn't any special topology after all.

An idea then:

Why don't you try auto retopology? It's about time. This will work producing very low dens base cage. I have to see the mesh you're trying for more suggestions.

Here's a video that shows a retopo to zbrush method.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24090090/tut3DC_ZB.mov

Just download it and please, before you start complains about quicktime, download VLC if not already.

[Imhotep397]

Another thing that speeds ZBrush a bit terms of allowing the sculpting to interact smoothly with the rendering is the fact that they have their own software based display system. A lot of the performance humps other developers might hit they can push through, because they can "change the rules" so to speak from the core level when necessary. That was a big advantage for them with this new development aside from the straight mesh manipulating algorithms.

[moska]

hey michalis

nice video

but no sound/explanations

and resolution doesnt allow see the smll windows

but i can see you retopo and project high mesh on retopo mesh

wonder if i can do that,should try but im lazy with ZB

looks like ZB is for final touch then

are you left hand?you have the dock on rigth like i do!

[michalis]

I can provide some screen shots with notes is this helps.

The big problem with shrinwrapping (project for zb users) is that sometimes whatever parameters we enter all become a mess.

3dcoat may have some better algorithms for snapping.

There's the alternative way to zbrush, after retopo-UVs go for MV mode-baking and export high definition mesh from there. In ZBrush ask for reconstruct subdivisions. Just have in mind to avoid n-gons in retopo room.

All these don't engage dynamesh and that's good. In fact better keep a zb4 copy as it's really stable.

There's a short wish list in zbcentral, pxilogic didn't pay much attention on this. But they fixed some humble things, like baking a decent cavity mask. Meaning (for me) that I can reconstruct interesting zb materials in Cycles.

[The Candy-floss Kid]

Dynamesh and mesh insert assets from basic volumes - for all the world like a voxel sculpt methodology :-)

Neat , cute and economical. Liked this video a lot.

My initial response to this update - big fan of the curve solutions for sculpting. Been after curve control effectors for sculpting in 3D Coat for some time.

Is it possible for voxels to hold sector information like polygroups? I can see immediately that this functionality is giving ZBrush some strong speed and control advantages when sculpting certain effects.

Here's the video

[Mykyl]

Is it possible for voxels to hold sector information like polygroups?

I can see a use for that as well.

On another note, I have zero idea how that render on the last page was done in 3d coat. No matter what I do on osx all I get is a white shape.

Mike

[michalis]

Zbrush has great fine tuned tools, we all know it and we love it for this.

Similar methods like this, boolean operations, I always use them when starting sculpting. No matter where I'll continue the work. It starts in 3dcoat voxels. I find it more spontaneous than dynamesh.

I have a small collection of doodles here, meshes that are impossible or unpractical for dynamesh.

The truth is that I spend some time, every day, doodling in dynamesh. I have to be familiar with it, to find a use for it.

For the moment, I can say that working over 128 or 256 resolution isn't useful. Better continue with the usual way, retopo fast and go for traditional zbrushing. A sketching tool, better than old remeshers and the almost ridiculous Zsketch. This last was for Giger's aliens only. But because it was implemented in zb3.5 (for win users only), a mac user, me, found his way to 3dcoat So, thank you pixo.

@Mykyl

No render room on your OSX build? Weird, it never stopped to work here, all 3dc OSX versions. Under 10.5.8-10.6.8. Haven't try 10.7 yet. But always under nvidia graphics.

------------

BTW On my posts in trouble shouting topic of ZBC, (lot of bugs and some crashes), on my questions like "are the older shaders compatible with new version?" (I believe they aren't) ...

The official answer came via PM ????

"michalis, we have just released a major update to ZB4R2 with many features intended to make your time in ZBrush more enjoyable and productive. Please take the time to enjoy the new features, be an artist first, and then - when you feel that are features that can be improved in order to make you ZBrush sessions more productive - we will listen."

this 'be an artist first" is killing me a bit From guys that I was in conduct for some months testing the sculptris beta.

After that and because many complains of other users for same issues they replied that they'll see how to fix them. They listened.

[Mykyl]

Michalis, I think thats the issue for me then. Osx Lion is a joke of a system at the moment. Glitches in many graphics apps. 3dCoat allows me to save objects but I must force quit 3dcoat after doing a save as the screen glitches and flickers as well as the render problem I said above.

I hate having to contact Andrew all the time with issues that I am coming across and wish I could figure out a way to report any issues I come across without constantly bothering him. The mantis report thing would never let me in so i gave up on that. Might give it a try again today.

Cheers

Mike

[michalis]

Reconsidering my thoughts on dynamesh, no, this tool is straight forward into art. No fun. I was wrong.

Being a little jealous after seeing the wonderful spiraloid's video. Allow me to post a 1 hour doodle, based on a beautiful chinese bronze.

Rendered in zb BPR

I can do such sculpting, even better and more detailed in 3dc-voxels but I can't paint it without retopo UVs etc. Not in one hour! ZB is really fast, it's the tools you see.

All this using build clay tool, move tool and some inserts (merge)

About the renderer, it isn't accurate as in 3dc. But it looks brilliant, because of the shader editor mostly.

[3dioot]

Not really related to zb4r2 but Michalis I just have to say; i love your stuff man!

I see your work everywhere; zbc, blenderartist, here and I can pretty much recognize its you by the style and quality.

3dioot

[Frenchy Pilou]

Seems easy under the artist's hands!

[kay_Eva]

What I like about that video is the way he made the nose. I never thought of that!!

[michalis]

You may find this interesting, Andrew and Raul most of all.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?159285-sculpting-sketchbook&p=1962693&viewfull=1#post1962693

http://nicholasbishop.net/

These before zbrush4r2 release. Reminds you something?

[artman]

BTW I'll repeat myself but dynamesh= 3dcoat's surface mode work + enter at times, with resample the only difference is the brush quality

Dynamesh preserve thin surfaces better tough....

[polyxo]

I've the same issues in both software (which is nto really an issue by the way it's the way it works), the only added value in pixo app is clay polish which can help bring landmark shapes forward. But for the rest brush quality set aside it's the same. If pilgway could bring zbrush quality brush on the table we wouldn't have those discussions regarding the sculpting part of the software.

I disagree.

There's at least one more really huge difference other than the (immensely important) Brush quality

which didn't get mentioned yet:

Zbrush has beautiful Undo-Redo code. More than in any other 3D-Modeling paradigm one in Sculpting

checks things out and makes them undone if they do not look right. One can feel that Pixologic puts a

great Focus on making Undo-Redo work perfectly with any of the Functionality they add. It just feels snappy

and perfectly reliable. This is also true for the new Dynamesh Insert Brush behaviour.

Inside 3DCoat Undo and Redo, especially in Voxel and Surface Mode may not only take long (especially when merging

operations are in the Stack) it can very likely create irrevesible errors in your Model (missing areas).

Undo/redo can make the Program unstable or crash.Thoughout the application there's also questionable actions inside

the Undo Stack (3DC basically writes nearly everything into Undo).

I just yesterday did a Side by Side comparison between Zbrush Curve Insert Brushes and 3DCoats Curve (fill inside)

Tool. The result were several visual defects and crashes on the 3DCoat side. Also editing the Curve-Tools felt way

more snappy than the 3DC counterpart which always shows a certain Lag when updating Geometry.

[artman]

I've the same issues in both software (which is nto really an issue by the way it's the way it works)

Not me. I've got various pieces of thin clothes...remeshing them with Dynamesh i get absolutely no holes.

Remeshing them using voxels I get holes 100% of times unless i put a really insane polygon amount.

[michalis]

Dynamesh preserve thin surfaces better tough....

How much thin? We don't expect miracles, of course we don't. Make them less thin, and thinner after retopology, in a nice surface sculpting room.

There isn't any other way except clothing which may need a different approach.

@BeatKitano

It may looks the same but working on quads is different. I prefer it.

After some doodling, I realized that I don't need more than 500-800 K density though I used more than 1 M once. More than enough for having a clean concept and go for retopo-details.

Inserting meshes in 3dc or zb is the same for me, more or less. I don't have any problems with zb UI though a nasty bug exists around. You may face it, you may not.

BTW the best demonstration of zb4r2 didn't came from pixologic, but from a member of this community.

Indicating how similar these apps are sometimes

http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7224&view=findpost&p=67827