Contributor artman Posted May 5, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Draw Flattern Clay Mud Mud2 Those 5 brushes are at least 3 times slower in 3.7.11 on my side than in 3.7.10A Its like the brushes are "coughing" when I stroke.I dont have time to make screencapture , (screenshot would not help,you need to see speed in movement ...I will try when I come back home tomorow) What is strange is it is written 340 fps when stroking using SF Clay or Mud2 in 3.7.11 but it is at least 3 time slower than in 3.7.10A where i get only 80-100 fps. Intuos4 here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted May 5, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Please please tell name of brush when you are telling about problem. There iis list of brushes that should become better: in surface mode: Draw Flattern Clay Mud Mud2 Live Clay Extrude Clay Tube Clay On my tests that brushes has become very accurate and even in comparison to bumpy previous ones. I can't believe that things got worse for that brushes. But possibly I missed something with other brushes. The essence of change is that spacing is now very even there and all intermediate points are snapped to the surface. Intersection of the brush with edge improved too. I will work over other brushes too. If you found problem with brush just tell name of brush and provide video or screenshot or description. OK, a report on the Draw Brush in surface mode remove stretching enabled. I million polygon sphere First brush in E-Panel (depth and radius) depth 25, radius 15 falloff 16 last alpha on the right top row. Intuos 3 tablet The draw brush is smoother at a medium brushing speed but now it is dotting at a slower speed. Just the reverse of what was happening. You are heading the right direction as the brush is smoother and more even in it's stroke but of course the dotting at a slow stroke speed will need to be address. The stroke is very touchy too at the start and end of a stroke losing some it's smoothness, (not shown in this picture.). This could be related to the speed of the start and end of your stroke. Picture shows two strokes for comparison. Stroke on the left---- medium speed Stroke on the right--- slow speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Elizeusz Posted May 5, 2012 Member Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Absolute , gum and expand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted May 5, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 @digman, those bumps are related to the wire, I noticed them too (this is what i was trying to show in the latest gif with creaseclay, but the banding was too high to see anything). Look in wiremode, when there's a poke is in my experience where the density of the wiref is altered. Don't know why though, and again, most of those complaining are using wacom tablets intuos tech 3-4 based. Yes, I noticed that too. When you use just a mouse the mesh rises more smoothly, Use your tablet and the mesh altering is popping as it rises and then I notice the mesh sinks a little bit behind the movement of your brush when using your tablet too in what appears to be an uneven way. What is funny now is a medium brush speed looks better than a slow one. This is not going to be easy to fix but I think Andrew can do it... Now, just when I wanted to test more I am having trouble with Windows... We got quite a bit of range of different experiences of the draw brush in the above postings. Whew, I would not like having Andrew's programming job right now, well in fact no programming job I would like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted May 5, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Also to consider in the testing is the alpha used.... There is a wide range change in the nature of the stroke depending upon the alpha chosen. In the picture the top two alphas are user created. I created the very top alpha and Michael Dunnam created the one under that... The two bottom alphas are default alphas. The picture is from Linux version 3.7.10A Draw Brush in surface mode, remove stretching enabled Same setting for all alphas... Spacing set to 10% This does not imply that the brush problems are alpha related. It just shows there are different changes using alphas in the brush strokes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Draw brush in surface mode looks like this Absolute , gum and expand It looks like you may have strips turned on for that, have you checked your strips settings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member simmsimaging Posted May 6, 2012 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Thanks for the new UV tools! So far they work well. It took a minute to figure out that it's a bit different in that you need to define the *actual* end point, and then add points "point to point" in between, rather than sketch it out point to point from start to finish, but it works well so far. Thank you for considering the input and adding this function. b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member jdoublej Posted May 6, 2012 Member Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I think the new feel of the brushes are good in almost all cases, but I feel the 'Rapid' brush needs to be reset to how it worked in previous releases of 3d coat. Before I would love to use this brush, because it had a very 'opaque' effect when sculpting, which is great for evening out and asserting the plane of a given surface. Now it builds up too much, and there is a 'transparency' to it that leads to a lumpier sculpt...So, that is my plea actually, I use this brush constantly, so I'd like to have it work as it did in previous releases. I think the 'Draw' brush seems to be a bit more subtle, I'm hoping this brush gets dialed to be more like the 'Standard' brush in zbrush; in this case I want the opposite of what I requested with Rapid; I like the ability to dial the brush to a low intensity, and pull or push without destroying too much surface detail, but at higher intensities, just draw out smooth strokes. thanks for the updates, and I'll continue working with the new features. -Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Picture shows two strokes for comparison. Stroke on the left---- medium speed Stroke on the right--- slow speed Maybe dotting related to changing of pressure manual jittering when you move pen slowly? Does it happen with mouse? I am getting absolutely ideal strokes there... Can't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Draw Flattern Clay Mud Mud2 Those 5 brushes are at least 3 times slower in 3.7.11 on my side than in 3.7.10A Its like the brushes are "coughing" when I stroke.I dont have time to make screencapture , (screenshot would not help,you need to see speed in movement ...I will try when I come back home tomorow) What is strange is it is written 340 fps when stroking using SF Clay or Mud2 in 3.7.11 but it is at least 3 time slower than in 3.7.10A where i get only 80-100 fps. Intuos4 here. falling from 300 to 80-100 is not 3 times slower. It is almost the same because no difference in feeling, FPS is still very high. Of course new approach a bit slower because every middle point is snapped, not only end and start but all cores used for that process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted May 6, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 falling from 300 to 80-100 is not 3 times slower. It is almost the same because no difference in feeling, FPS is still very high. Of course new approach a bit slower because every middle point is snapped, not only end and start but all cores used for that process. no,no..you got me wrong 300 fps is in 3.7.11 and its very very slow. In 3.7.10A i get 80fps and its at least 3 times faster than 3.7.11. This is why I said it was strange. Andrew,what tablet are you using in your tests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted May 6, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Maybe dotting related to changing of pressure manual jittering when you move pen slowly? Does it happen with mouse? I am getting absolutely ideal strokes there... Can't understand. Yes, of course some manual jittering I think would be in there but I can move as slow in the linux version 3.7.10A and it is not as pronounced. As Beatkitano said the strokes are better, more smoother (medium stroke speed) but something under the hood is still effecting the dabbing of the brush And if you are doing slow detail work, jittering of the dabs would not be good which as been one of the problems with the brushes till now. I can make the jitters less by increasing the depth and a lighter touch as a workaround. To me that says something how 3DCoat is handling the input of pressure from the tablet in applying the dabs. Does it happen with a mouse, no, that is what we have been saying. mouse strokes are smooth as a mouse has constant input but once you have a brush with depth and radius with your tablet you get the problems. Lock your depth or use the second brush in the e-panel with your tablet and your strokes are very much smoother. Does the deselection of the paint with dabs in the brush options panel have any negative effect? I posted this bug a few post ago, unless it is meant to deselect itself... I will do more testing tommorrow and try to make a few videos as today's testing is first impressions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Don't use pait with dabs. It will do stroke bumpy because of nature of this option. It is incompartible with spacing so deselected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I am using Intous 3. I will post video how strokes look on my side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Draw and Clay brushes: http://screencast.com/t/IqcsXeiqp 1M sphere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted May 6, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Don't use pait with dabs. It will do stroke bumpy because of nature of this option. It is incompartible with spacing so deselected. A heads up the tool tip saids to use it, so the tool tip needs to be reworded... Thanks for the information... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted May 6, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Ok,i tested more and I can get satisfying speed by setting my pen pressure to very soft in Wacom control panel and using "brush pressure only affect depth" in 3DCoat e-panel. Most brushes are fast enough like Clay and Draw but Flatenclay is very slow. 500k sphere here. I still get the the dotting effect even with pressure off if I use Creaseclay for example (see picture) but it only happens when fast stroking(I guess Creaseclay need to be used more slowly than other brushes) hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted May 6, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Draw and Clay brushes: http://screencast.com/t/IqcsXeiqp 1M sphere I get speed like you when I do fast stroke but when I do slow stokes it is not as smooth as in your video I feel like a lot of tiny little jumps(the snapping?). But I cannot go fast like in your video with LC brushes,mostly Flattenclay and Creaseclay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted May 6, 2012 Applink Developer Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Andrew. Try those tests with 4mil and 7 mil sphere. And use different brush size. I know that those situations can be very hard to manage for any sculpting program. In my tests dotting effect is quite easy to see when you increase resolution. Mouse can handle increased resolution much better than my tablet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted May 6, 2012 Applink Developer Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Here is an example video with 7mil sphere. https://vimeo.com/41639229 first stroke is with mouse and second is with my wacom bamboo tablet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor TimmyZDesign Posted May 6, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Left is pen. Right is mouse. (I am using Wacom Cintiq 12 WX. Wacom Tablet driver 6.2.0w5) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member kay_Eva Posted May 6, 2012 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 works perfectly for me i have quad core / 64 bit / Cuda / Wacom Bamboo edit: actually if I increase resolution to 8 mil it starts to have that bumpy effect that people are talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I am using latest drivers from Wacom downloads. Please check how much pressure levels 3DC determined. Try to set valid number. On my side 1023 was determined. Also, let us discuss say Draw brush and LC with default first brush. Let us find reason of difference. Uncheck spacing and dabs. There is video how LC works: http://screencast.com/t/ThgOb1gJnayM settings: Default 240k sphere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member otsoa Posted May 6, 2012 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Ok, here with default settings of LC and surface clay is Ok too. I had set pressure level to 2048. Intuos 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted May 6, 2012 Applink Developer Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Here is my tests with 240k sphere. Should be same settings with you Andrew. Only diffrence is that I'm using wacom bamboo. Dotting is there. But would love to see some other users tests who has bamboo too. kay_Eva are you able to send a video too?? You can use my vimeo account if you want. https://vimeo.com/41641850 Have to say that you have a really smooth strokes. I envy how you can use pen pressure to determine the stroke size. PS: I'm using 1023 pressure level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor LJB Posted May 6, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I wonder if its more an Input packet problem?, Seems heavily effected by Scale of brush radius too even in Voxel tools. Like Artman suggests some tools are far worse than others some are manageable if used slower. Timmy Z Design image spells it out quite profoundly though and Even with my Pressure setting at Low firmness to ensure a consistent full pressure stroke i experience the skipping. See vid all strokes finish at full pressure. http://vimeo.com/41646447 Maybe some kinda curve or averaging needs to be sensibly employed with the sensitivity setting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member otsoa Posted May 6, 2012 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Bamboo Pen test: http://onirike.free.fr/temp/BambooPen.mp4 Intuos 4 test: http://onirike.free.fr/temp/Intuos4.mp4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted May 6, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Im using the default 1023 setting(even if it should be 2048),I noticed 1023 always give the best feeling so I always use it. The little jumps Im talking about when doing slow strokes is EXACTLY what is shown in BeatKitano latest video. here is Draw brush 375k sphere here is LC with default setting 375k sphere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Here is my tests with 240k sphere. Should be same settings with you Andrew. Only diffrence is that I'm using wacom bamboo. Dotting is there. But would love to see some other users tests who has bamboo too. kay_Eva are you able to send a video too?? You can use my vimeo account if you want. https://vimeo.com/41641850 Have to say that you have a really smooth strokes. I envy how you can use pen pressure to determine the stroke size. PS: I'm using 1023 pressure level Please check Edit->Preferences->Brush sensitivity. Should be 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DavidF Posted May 6, 2012 Member Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 All right, I tested it a few moments ago. I am very happy with the new brush... In fact, it solves absolutely the problem I had with it, which was the reason I started this topic in the first place. I continued sculpting a dragon whose skull was too hard to sculpt with the previous brush, because of the flat areas combined with some hanging skin and the bumpinness was too unpredictable. Now, I feel it is just like mudbox (in terms of brushing), and I can do it perfectly!! The amount of control gained with the new brush is great, in every type of brush I tested. I don't want to sound conformist, but I am. I will try to understand what is that others don't like about the upgrade though. There are two things we must separate in order to nail this. One thing is the irregularities of depth in the stroke, and another one is the dot sample space that occurs specially in a fast stroke. The first one I fell that has been eliminated, since a stroke should never change in depth unless on purpose and it doesn't anymore, and the second one needs to be diminished as much as possible, but it is still posible on fast strokes with high polycount since the processor cant process all the samples necessary along a stroke to eliminate the doting effect (it happens even in 2d programs like Photoshop), but algorithms can be made to diminish it. I believe that pretending that this dotting effect will never occur is asking too much, but it is reasonable to ask that it doesnt happen on SLOW strokes. In every other program I've used the dotting effect can happen on fast strokes over high poly, but the way to do it under those situations is 1: making a slow stroke 2: restroking back without lifting the pen, so the algorithm keeps working over the initial surface depth and doesnt add to the already dotted surface... I believe we are in a very good spot right now about all this. There is always, however, room for improvment. I do believe that on big sizes strokes the effect could be a little more predictable. Sometimes it feels as if there was one sphere added next to the other and that altogether they move the surface... but they leave some creased angles in the middle. This effect happens on slow strokes too... I hope this can be improved, since sometimes it is very useful to draw over big - detailed surfaces in order to lift or deepen something in general... Another thought... what about processors and graphic cards ??? maybe i'm getting good results because of good hardware... What if everybody posts their hardware? I wouldnt expect good result on old hardware... My hardware: i7 2600k OC 3.9 ghz 8 gigs or ram 560ti That's about it. I will keep making tests... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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