Can anyone explain the painting modes?

[jamie]

Hello...

From what I read in the docs, PerPixel is the best painting mode. But it doesnt appear to be compatible with painting on a displaced mesh?

Waaaaaa? Is this correct?

[Psmith]

Jamie:

If you want "actual" mesh displacement to be applied while you paint, (in the Paint Room), the best painting method to use is micro-vertex. In fact, its the only one to use for this purpose. You can actually see the real displaced mesh by looking at it in the Sculpt Room - the displacement you see in the Paint Room is a kind of proxy/interpolated version of that actual displacement.

Greg Smith

[jamie]

Jamie:

If you want "actual" mesh displacement to be applied while you paint, (in the Paint Room), the best painting method to use is micro-vertex. In fact, its the only one to use for this purpose. You can actually see the real displaced mesh by looking at it in the Sculpt Room - the displacement you see in the Paint Room is a kind of proxy/interpolated version of that actual displacement.

Greg Smith

I'm a little confused. Does this mean that the PerPixel painting is only useful for non-displaced geo? As in, it can't be used for creatures or any other detailed objects?

[michalis]

I should write a tutorial on this. To explain what's the goal when importing objects in a render app.

Displacement asks renderer to subdivide a few times first, this is how it works. Normally 3-4 times. All fine details can be placed via normal maps then. A very detailed rendered model this way.

You know that you can export displacement maps from voxels (directly via baking tool/retopo room). Before baking anything. But if you like to paint displacements, PPP isn't for this purpose. Try MV in this case. But you can directly paint normal maps in PPP and this, combined with a direct disp_map can be more than satisfied. IMO. I'm a zbrush user as well, what can you do in zb more than bake normal and disp maps? Dspl for the first few subdivisions, normals for the rest. Its similar.

You may like to export (and construct) a multi-res model instead. This is superior but I can do this in blender via shrinkwrap (projection lower to higher res). More complicated and I can't help you on other apps. This last is the real thing IMO.

I think that the ppp and normal maps painting method is enough in most cases. See this great thread and the tutorial of LJB.

http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2841&pid=54317&st=440entry54317

tutorial

http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2841&view=findpost&p=53884

[jamie]

I should write a tutorial on this. To explain what's the goal when importing objects in a render app.

Displacement asks renderer to subdivide a few times first, this is how it works. Normally 3-4 times. All fine details can be placed via normal maps then. A very detailed rendered model this way.

You know that you can export displacement maps from voxels (directly via baking tool/retopo room). Before baking anything. But if you like to paint displacements, PPP isn't for this purpose. Try MV in this case. But you can directly paint normal maps in PPP and this, combined with a direct disp_map can be more than satisfied. IMO. I'm a zbrush user as well, what can you do in zb more than bake normal and disp maps? Dspl for the first few subdivisions, normals for the rest. Its similar.

You may like to export (and construct) a multi-res model instead. This is superior but I can do this in blender via shrinkwrap (projection lower to higher res). More complicated and I can't help you on other apps. This last is the real thing IMO.

I think that the ppp and normal maps painting method is enough in most cases. See this great thread and the tutorial of LJB.

http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2841&pid=54317&st=440entry54317

tutorial

http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2841&view=findpost&p=53884

Thanks for the links, I've been using this technique for per-pixel painting.

However it only uses low-res meshes in the paint room, and I need to work on something with a higher number of subdivisions.

Any suggestions?

[Psmith]

Jamie:

The different painting modes and their best uses are confusing, I agree.

When you are importing external meshes as .obj or .lwo, etc., the opening wizard lets you choose between micro-vertex texturing, (painting) and per pixel texturing, (painting). Both allow an initial form of "virtual" subdividing for the purpose of painting perceived detail on the imported mesh - whether this imported mesh is made of few or many polygons. So, if you are importing your mesh, you can add as much perceived subdivision as you need through the opening dialog.

This virtual subdivision is also used to internally, (behind the scenes), render the various maps you will need when you export your textured mesh to external apps for rendering and animation.

The above scenario represents the most basic use of 3D-Coat - so there are other, more complex scenarios, as well.

So, in answer to your question about detailed creature texturing - per-pixel painting does not "actually", in reality add displacement to your imported mesh - but it can simulate displacement by means of a normal map and also by means of a diffuse and specular map. This kind of simulated displacement, however, has a limit with regard to how extreme of an effect you need, (how deep are the cavities and how high are the protrusions of texture) - and how believable the results are. So, quite naturally, if you are producing a low poly model for use in a game, per-pixel texturing is often a good choice.

For an imported model that has low - all the way to high - resolution actual detail, (low to high polygon count) - and you want to add both fine detail and real and somewhat extreme "actual" displacement, micro-vertex texturing is best, accompanied by a 4k or above texture map size.

This explanation may still be clear as mud, so I suggest experimenting with both methods using imported meshes of low, medium and high polygon counts as test cases.

Greg Smith

[Javis]

Quick (simple) reference:

PPP: Normal maps, color, spec

MV: Normal, displacement, vector displacement, color, spec (color & spec use the PPP method since it's better for these two, even in MV mode)

PTEX: identical to MV mode

You can generate a displacement map from PPP, but the results aren't always the best. Sticking with the above (brief) reference is going to get you the best results.

[jamie]

Quick (simple) reference:

PPP: Normal maps, color, spec

MV: Normal, displacement, vector displacement, color, spec (color & spec use the PPP method since it's better for these two, even in MV mode)

PTEX: identical to MV mode

You can generate a displacement map from PPP, but the results aren't always the best. Sticking with the above (brief) reference is going to get you the best results.

Thanks to both of you for the help.

I don't really need to paint any large displacement details at this stage, my voxel sculpt already has all the large to medium sized details that will require displacement.

What I am wondering is how to see this detail when I am painting in PPP mode.

[Psmith]

Jamie:

If you are creating your sculpture in the Voxel Room, are you using the AUTOPO algorithm to automatically create topology and UV's for you, or are you doing this manually?

In either case, make sure that you are allotting enough "virtual" subdivision to accommodate the details you want to resolve while painting. If you set this virtual subdivision level too low, you will not see the smallest voxel details translated into the paintable mesh.

Greg Smith

[jamie]

Jamie:

If you are creating your sculpture in the Voxel Room, are you using the AUTOPO algorithm to automatically create topology and UV's for you, or are you doing this manually?

In either case, make sure that you are allotting enough "virtual" subdivision to accommodate the details you want to resolve while painting. If you set this virtual subdivision level too low, you will not see the smallest voxel details translated into the paintable mesh.

Greg Smith

My topology is created from scratch, the autopo is not quite good enough for rigged creatures yet.

The details of the voxel sculpt are visible in the normal map in PPP mode, or in the displaced mesh in MV mode.

I guess the best solution is to use a subdivided mesh with the displacement already applied for painting in PPP mode, then export the lowest level mesh for the final geo in Maya.