Quicker Curve tool implimentation

[LJB]

All the new tools are going to be a godsend, Im Feeling the voxel Bug again scratching away at the back of my neck and getting excited about 3D Coat some more.

Currently I have to look to the curve tool for a quick addition to my sculpts, A quick armiture is pretty easy to mock up, but the curve tool really isnt Ideal way. Manipulation of the curve using the gizmo's and having to set the Hardness manually for each joint along each curve is a pain.

This is the draw of ZSpheres! Currently I see my workflow using ZShperes to set up a quick form then unify and export to 3d coat.

Is there anything that could be done to improve the flow when trying to use the curve tool in this way. Please look into this Andrew as i really think its a shame im considering this step.

Any break in the continuity of a sculpt is detrimental to a creativity process, In essence if I start in a tool i like to finish in a tool, I dont like having to swapsy out and back. Its also not a good point marketing wise.

3D Coat has it all. but I just think more could be done with either the curve tool or a derivative of it. Voxels after all should be aimed primarily at roughing out form and laying down building block to take further with the sculpting tools. Currently i find it a bit limited in laying down even a simple human shape just with the curve tool alone.

One of the reasons i think its tricky is that any click on a open space will draw another point to the curve, Meaning I go to rotate the model and Bang i get another point from the last point i selected which i have to go and delete. ZSpheres in essence are grown from the base sphere then positioned where needed, This makes it extremely efficient and fast, The kind of thing Voxel tools should aim too. Hard edges are standard no conversion step is required for each joint. With cycling through the SRT Actions is done using Keys (Another thing that would be a nice improvement throughout 3d coat Having multiple manipulators on each gizmo is not only confusing but detrimental to their function) a simple hot key approach and the choice to show or hide each varient of the manipulator would be a godsend. ( I currently run 3D Coat at a resolution of 1900x1200 and even with all that realestate a cluster of cuves and large complicated manipulators get clustered and cunfused).

What about something by way of a draw point hotkey which is held say D and left click to draw a point and released when point is drawn That way the draw in space option would still make sense just be a bit less accidental, with a seperate S,R,T hot key for manipulation of these points.

The other neat feature would be to rotate from each point along the chain (And this would only work if you considered a seperate tool to the current curve tool) so as you rotate a point in the curve each consecutive (Child) point would rotate as a whole (This is what makes Zsphere reposability so great and what is lacking in the curve tool).

Does that make any sense?

[Giuseppe]

zsphere is more rapid to define the model

[David Walters]

I agree with the points above. Also I'd like to add a request:

The ability to physcially constrain cuve points to just one side of the current symmetry plane.

I think having a solid guide to build against would be a big help for characters.

[LJB]

Giuseppe - This is exactly my Point, Voxel demand a fast efficient way to lay down organic form, and character structure. ZSpheres currently do the job very nicely. Therefore why not impliment something that will enable this speed and efficiency for Voxel sculpting.

We all agree the draw of using voxels is the topologyless unconstrained way in which we can work, but there (For me at least) is not a fast easy way of laying out things quickly. I have grown quite tired of starting with a sphere and roughing out shape then growing individual limbs with seperate curves or trying to draw out a figure shape with Curves and accidently making a mess by clicking on empty region, then having to go back and remove things or selecting the wrong blinking manipulator or axis. In answer to those amoung the forum who undoubtidly think Im ranting then just watch those vids and umpteen others out there at the speed at which form can be achieved using ZSpheres and then compare it to the current curve tool yourselves.

I have become very passionate about 3D Coat and i think more people should do the same, so I only offer my humble opinion as to bring the tool forward.

I also agree completely with the Symetry lock on curves, that is a big problem, Also problematic with ZSpheres too. but make it an option not a standard, as im sure there is a use for overlapping the symetry plane with voxel curves.

[Giuseppe]

LJB I agree with your opinion, in 3dcoat implement a tool that allows a control like zsphere is cool!!

IMHO zsphere control is more rapid and intuitive to create the base mesh.

in zbrush create the structure move the zsphere and chose the form "press A" if you not like press "A" and move, is very cool, in this way be clear about the model, very simple

[David Walters]

I also agree completely with the Symetry lock on curves, that is a big problem, Also problematic with ZSpheres too. but make it an option not a standard, as im sure there is a use for overlapping the symetry plane with voxel curves.

I think adding the following combo box would be all that's required:

Constrain to Half-Space

[Off],

[Global X Positive],

[Global X Negative],

[Global Y Positive],

[Global Y Negative],

[Global Z Positive],

[Global Z Negative]

[symettry Positive],

[symettry Negative],

The last two options would be hidden if symettry is disabled.

To be honest though, I'm not even sure supporting the symettry plane is very useful -- you'll probably only want to model around the origin anyway?

As a further helper - I'd make it so new nodes placed on the opposite side of the plane get flipped around the plane and placed on the correct side.

Any movement of the node itself would stop it's centre at the plane's surface.

But you definitely want to turn this off because you might want to make a Curly Wurly!

[jacobo]

I agree with almost all the points above. I too have watched the Zspheres2 videos over and over like many others and have been really impressed. But ever since the word "Digital Clay" came out, it is my strong belief that 3DC is the only application to date that embraces the true meaning of the word through its revolutionary voxel technology. I am a registered user of Zbrush and have been using it since version 2, the 2nd version of zspheres looks absolutely great and quite enticing. But I must say that the ability to bring in basic primitives and mush them together in 3DC to bring out a coherent shape seems just as much exciting, I must say. Yet for rapid shape creation, I can see that pixologic came up with something pretty solid. With Zspheres you could only create the very rough infrastructure for your model to shape later on according to your needs. The downside is that, the more geometry you need, the more you have to subdivide after severing the connection between the skin and the Zpheres, simply because you have to, which also comes out to be the downside of polygon based modeling. That is why they came up with Zspheres2 where they actually implemented the use of Zpheres as a direct rapid modeling tool, the only difference from its predecessor being that all zpheres can inter-mesh with each other a-la meta-balls, not just the hierarchical branches. Ironically, this is where 3DC also excels, and I believe that with the Voxel tech base already quite nicely functioning inside of 3DC, it is time we came up with solid suggestions for rapid modeling tools. Mine would be:

1- Spherical and/or other geometric shape based strokes that yield voxel geometry that bear within themselves persistent nodular controls that can be later tweaked until frozen (like hitting enter) This is very similar to the already existing spline tool, except that it is drawn with a stroke on the screen or on some geometry or along its surface and once you release your pointer, you can see nodes inside the geometry you just drew. The second stroke you draw right next to it will not mush with it or the consequent ones for that matter. After you are done laying out your entire infrastructure, you could give the command to freeze them so that all those strokes could blend with one another.

2- Right now, the only downside of 3DC voxel modeling that needs to evolve before such robust tools could be implemented would be that many of the voxel tools (like the move tool) tend to leave a lot of artifacts behind as one works on his/her model. During a typical workflow, besides modeling and shaping, one finds his/herself spending equal amount of time trying to clean up voxel artifacts, sometimes leading to loosing previously added surface details in the process.

3- One point I'd like to make regarding symmetry is that 3DC should let the viewer see the convergence of axis of the currently drawn tool with the epsilon (center) line. In essence, as soon as you hit the 0 mark on the symmetry axis, the tool needs to illustrate to you the convergence point of both sides of the symmetrical axis. The brush could either turn red when you're in the middle and/or it can snap to it.

Hope I didn't divert the conversation away from it's intended aim too much

Cheers;

AJ

[otsoa]

Something like the tool to draw the bone used for as tools pose, like Etch-a-Ton...

video

[Giuseppe]

Something like the tool to draw the bone used for as tools pose, like Etch-a-Ton...

video

blender is a awesome software

[LJB]

Argh The curve tool is so Darn frustrating. Even just trying to use the Unified Scaling with that manipulator I more often than not Grab what i think is the White square in the center (Which is supposed to Scale each axis uniformley and just end up grabbing the hidden Z zsxis sczleer and and flattren the curve point. This is very frustrating. Also Maybe the option to choose whether we want hard edges drawn as default would be nice. Having to switch each ppoint to Hard edge is Annoying.

Maybe create another tool similar and have the option to Remove the individual axis of scaling. They to me just get right in the way of what im trying to do. I literally for quick form just want to grab a point with a Hard edge and either move it or scale it. or If Hirachial rotation can be achieved Rotate it. I dont need to see every axis at once, Just change the coulour of the acvtive Point and hotkey the affect no Extra icon or maipulator is needed and if Hirachial rotationcan be chieved it could simply be implimented with an action line and handle that stretches from the active point out to the direction of influence. Its confusing and detrimental to how i want work with all axis present and I suggest another tool rather than making modif's to the current curve tool as it makes sense to have all the options for curves, But they would not be needed in a 'Quick Form' tool. Individual axis make work more precise which is great in its Neiche but precise individual axis manipulation does not lend itself well to fast organic structuring they just get in the way, and slow up the process and to me at least make thuings unworkable. By example i want to create a body currently

Im sorry to go on but i find it really longwinded currently and it would just be such a grweat addition to the toolset to have this speedy approach available. Surely People must see that the muscel tool and others need a good initial form to work too otherwise they can just make a bit of a mess.

If this idea was taken onboard then Maybe we can appeal to the greater ZBrush audience who are starting to take notice of the tool in a brighter light?

[jedwards]

As someone who has been using zspheres since they were introduced, and the transpose tool (I was one of the ones who supported having a similar tool in 3dc before it was added), and having used the curve tools in 3dc enough - I don't think the curve tool is anything close to a substitute for zspheres. It is their posable nature that makes them so awesome in the beginning. I still find it faster/easier to just sculpt out my rough shapes from a sphere. A quick scribble to pull out a nub for a limb and then the pose tool to stretch it out and bend it into shape is easier for me than curves. Unless there is a push to making a more zsphere like solution I'll probably stick with just the pose tool and a sphere as I just find the curve tools a bit too messy to work with. Sure, it isn't close to what zspheres2 will be but then andrew's entire voxel toolset and workflow is less than a year old. Pixologic have had years to build this tech from the initial introduction. I'm confident that whatever he comes up with will work, he just needs time.

I agree too that the reliance on all these manipulators and panel settings is a slow down. I'd really like to see a greater push towards being able to integrate such things into the pen and keyboard bindings as much as possible for the fastest workflow. The defaults are fine for new users finding their way, but there are no options for streamlining workflow for advanced users. This is why I keep requesting that stuff to be opened up to the users, so we can at least experiment with things and come up with solutions of our own, which might cause less work for andrew in the long run. The keybinding is a nice start, but I'd love to see a pen/mouse + modifier key binding option as well. See silo, blender (2.5) or even modo for such an example. Modo is interesting because you can actually reuse bindings for different things, depending on context. This would be ideal, especially if you could bind not just global commands but sub-commands within the context of an active tool - per room even.

[LJB]

Well We asked we got. Thank you Andrew.