subpatch and/or viewport resolution

[druitre]

Hi all,

I'm just starting again with 3DC after not having used it since beginning of V3 and am confused at something seemingly simple:

where do I set subd-level for my object that I imported into the paint room?

The manual talks about three different types of resolution and it looks like 'viewport resolution' would be the one I'm looking for. Where in 3DC do I adjust that? The manual doesn't say. And I can't find it anywhere in 3DC.

What I can find is view>adjust subpatching. In the manual there is nothing on this, and I don't see anything useful happening to my model either when I raise the number. Am I not using it correctly?

The other thing that might be it is in the import dialog; I can enter number of subdivisions there. It gives a good result but is it adjustable on an already imported object? Now I have to 'replace mesh' with same and enter higher number. Also, this looks like hard-dividing (actually adding polygons) as opposed to viewport-time. That would cause problems if I were to generate UV's in 3DC and export the mesh - it would be a higher density mesh than what came in.

Can someone point me to the right way of doing this?

Thanks,

Jasper

[Psmith]

When you import your model into the Paint Room for texturing, the opening dialog offers you the option to "Paint over model with deep displacement". In actuality, this is the Micro-Vertex mode of texturing and has those options for which you are looking. This method offers an adjustable "Viewport Resolution" by means of the control "Carcass resolution".

This is a temporary resolution which is independent of that resolution in which you choose to export your final textured model - although you could certainly choose to export your model at the same resolution as the "Carcass resolution" setting.

Try importing using this option and experiment with different "Carcass resolution" settings, until you get the desired result.

Greg Smith

[druitre]

Hi Greg,

I think there's something confusing here (as a new user). I've actually had to re-read your answer several times and go through all the options to figure out what's confusing. I'll try to explain and keep it clear. It's not intended as bashing, I honestly think there is a need for improvement:

First off, there is a difference in terminology between the manual, the opening dialog and the rest of the program. The opening dialog calls per pixel painting 'paint directly over UV'ed model' and microvertex painting 'paint over the model with deep displacement'. Although these may be accurate descriptions, I really think above the description it should read what it describes. Now it's just adding to my newbie confusion instead of offering a quick way of starting with the software.

Then: the manual (and the opening dialog) states that microvertex painting is for high levels of 'actual' displacement and per pixel painting is for painting textures on UV'ed models. The latter is exactly what I want to do. So I choose 'paint directly over UV'ed model' (or 'per pixel painting'). Now you advise me to use microvertex painting. Does that mean the description (in the opening dialog and the manual) is not accurate?

Also confusing, IMHO, is the whole resolution concept - the manual starts by describing three main ways of resolution. None of these return anywhere else within the program. The manual mentions 'carcass resolution' only for Ptex and never explains where to set 'viewport resolution'. The software doesn't use 'viewport resolution' at all. The tooltip for carcass mentions two other terms for resolution - mid-poly mesh and high-poly mesh - but doesn't say which of the two you're setting with 'carcass'. The <millions of polygons> box above it adds yet another description of resolution - 'mesh resolution, in millions of polygons'.

Then there is view>adjust subpatching. What is that for? It isn't mentioned in the manual anywhere and doesn't do anything either, as far as I can see. My mesh remains the same. 'Subpatches' normally means viewport representation of (CatmullClarke or other) subdivs.

All in all, it feels like there have been many iterations of functions, with different naming conventions and different implementations as time passed, as well as functions added and others removed. I really feel that a thorough cleaning up of the names used in the GUI, the tooltips, the opening dialog and the manual is necessary, so as to be consistent and clear. There are perhaps also some problems with the descriptions themselves, as functions have been added at a later time that have resulted in contradictory statements. But that's hard to say for me.

Lastly, all of the resolution settings in the import dialogs are one-way, not adjustable in an already existing project. Is there a way to do that, or would that be a feature request?

regards, Jasper

[Psmith]

Those of us who have been with 3D-Coat for a number of years have faced these issues you so accurately describe in your post. Many of us have suggested changing the language and the consistency of these dialogs - possibly offering fewer choices and more basic and familiar terminology throughout the application.

The effectiveness of our suggestions and criticisms you can see in the app as it stands today.

Perhaps, however, the Manual could be updated to reflect the synonymous relationship between "Viewport resolution" and "Carcass resolution", for the time being.

The differences in Per-Pixel painting and Micro-Vertex painting are becoming fewer - as time goes on - and some of the options in each dialog most certainly need refining.

So, your observations, at this moment in time, really do fall into the category of "feature requests" and you are welcome to post these and +1 existing requests on Mantis.

Thanks for your input,

Greg Smith

[Tony Nemo]

It is really important that all terminology in the GUI should have a counterpart in the Manual.

Micro-vertex painting uses the same UV mesh that PerPixel does but (in my understanding anyway) displaces vertices according to a "Displacement Map" created by baking after modeling.

[Psmith]

The term "Carcass resolution" has been objected to the most - because of its strangeness. We had full confidence that this term would be replaced by "Viewport resolution" in version 4. In fact, I believe it did appear in some of the beta releases. Somehow, this change did not make it into the final release - but was anticipated in the Manual.

My apologies.

Also, it was unclear which UI changes would make it into the MV and PP painting dialogs - and we are still waiting to see the final final verdict.

But, I'm not going to change or modify anything, at the moment - until a little more time goes by . . . for obvious reasons.

Greg Smith

[BeatKitano]

I think I remember carcass beinng changed for viewport resolution, or maybe it was suggested, but yeah I tought carcass was the past (that word really doesn't sound nice...).

At the risk of transforming this thread into feature request (not my intend anyway): I think there's some issues with the name used in the interface.

For instance we have the "e-panel": not explicit and worse: you don't know how you should call what's inside that panel. I'm tempted to say "strokes"

but what about rectangles and stamps do they mix well with that name ? :/

It's one example but someday I really think pilgway's team need to have a brainstorming to review every name for a real conventional terminology.

Another example: we have brushes/tools that are stocked in the "thing on the left" (no word for that tray) that are called either brushes or tools, problem is they all suffer from the same visual representation.It may be cool to not make the distinction (it can be a choice) but it's confusing since in the retopo room for instance there's a tool called tweak brush... and no "brushes" in there.

[druitre]

Thanks for the answer Greg. I understand you're supervising/designing/co-writing the manual? As said before, my criticism is intended to be supportive, not bashing. Am I correct in reading some frustration in your comment on the way pilgway is handling naming suggestions? Anyhow, no need to apologise.

I have owned and (briefly) used 3DC at V1, 2, 3 and now 4 but each time stopped because of being frustrated over the unclear workflow - I just can't figure out what is happening where, and where I am supposed to do what I want to do. So each time something doesn't work I can't say wether it's me or the software. As far as that is caused by conflicting terminology, I think that is completely unnecessary and a big shame. I had hoped all of that would have been ironed out by now.

As the posts above say: terminology should be as conventional as possible, internally consistent and reflected in the manual. That is basic stuff.

Edited July 5, 2013 by druitre

[digman]

Adjust Sub patching is actually what the tool tip says, a NxN grid place over every face (polygon) on the model for improving the visual appearance of the model. The sub-patching is simply not shown to the user. It will make your normal or displacement work look better visually in the viewport. The effect is subtle. It has no effect on the model's true polygons when exporting.

Now, when you are exporting your model from the file menu you can choose the the low polygon version of the model to export and not the carcass resolution one you imported into the paint room.

Millions of polygons is again an internal working of 3DCoat. It is internally the amount of polygons that is used for creating your normal map or displacement map.

A 2K image would need at least 4 million internal polygons. You need as the tool tip saids, more polygons than the amount of pixels in the image.

You can replace the current object in the paint room if you want more true subdivisions or less. This only works for per pixel currently.

File menu / import / replace geometry. It will keep your current normal map work and texture work... The UV set needs to the similar or the same.

When using this feature, the import dialog box will appear again for your settings as in the first import of the model into the paint room.

Per Pixel gives you higher quality texture painting as it is pixel based and not vertex based. Micro vertex texturing painting is vertex based.

Micro- Vertex mode displaces the polygons of the model. It is just not creating a normal map. That is where a higher numbered carcass resolution comes in handy...

Whether to use Per Pixel or Micro Vertex mode is a workflow question depending upon your intended use of the model.

I think some terms could be changed but I have not seen anything that is a show stopper in my opinion, well heck I would not use 90% of my current software if I went by term use

[druitre]

Hi David, I just responded to your pm, didn't see your message here... thanks, it clarifies a lot.

Subpatching doesn't smooth then after dividing? So it's not similar to OGL subdivision level in Softimage or subpatching in LW or smoothing levels in Maya?

OK, I understand the millions of polygons setting. I think it should have a different name and place in the GUI though, but I see what it's for.

ATM, I'm trying out PTex and so far it feels better than PP. Will continue testing to see which option suits me best.

Cheers, Jasper

[digman]

Your are correct about Subpatching. It is not like Maya smoothing etc.

Ptex, ah Softimage must support it, nice

You can bake using the "Texture Baking Tool" your ptex maps to the same model with a normal uv set as well... You lose some ptex quality though. More on that later if you ever need it...

Also you can reduce all your ptex maps down to just one for rendering in any application, of course again you lose some of your ptex quality that way but it is an option for the user.

If you are unaware of this feature, at the bottom of the left tool bar is an icon that is square with a small grid inside. This is for increasing the local ptex resolution on specific areas of the model for higher and more quality details In those areas, example a face...

3DC is a powerful and diverse program well worth the time to really learn the ends and outs of... I have been using it now for 6 years...

[druitre]

Yeah, PTex is cool. BUT: it seems at import-time 3DC always subdivides the mesh at least once... so I can't export the UV's back to Soft's original mesh!! Am I missing a setting?

The texture baking works fine, but you lose all PTex advantages in details/quality.

[digman]

In the import dialog box do the below.

For Ptex, choose the top most number, that is your low polygon model with no subdivision.

For Micro Vertex do the same.

For Per Pixel choose no subdivision.

Also if the model is a hard surface model, select auto-smoothing groups and put in the max angle you need. This will retain your sharp edges...

About Ptex loosing quality with the texture baking of course that is not what you wanted but I just was making you aware it was possible and for anyone else reading your thread...

I'm off the the store to get some Henna for creating body decorations, a new art form I am trying out...

[druitre]

Hi David, that's what I expected too. But here's what I get when importing - first screenshot is of Softimage showing the .obj. You can see in the info it's 16472 triangles. Second screenshot is 3DC import dialog - lowest number is twice that. Third screenshot is result in 3DC - as you can see it's subdivided + smoothed the mesh.

Edit: I see the smoothing is caused by me not disabling smoothing in the import dialog. So here's what it looks like in that case and with 'View>Low Poly' on.

Edited July 8, 2013 by druitre

[druitre]

To answer my own post: the subdividing is caused by triangles in my object - PTex only accepts quads and 3DC fixes the problem by subdividing the incoming mesh. Perhaps it would be good if 3DC gave a warning before doing this.

[Tony Nemo]

Just out of curiosity, how would you respond to the warning (abandon the use of Ptex)? Maybe it could read, "Ptex only accepts quads. Do you want yor object subdevided?"

Actually, the warning is already there in the line, "Ptex texture size for export" which you pointed out, was twice the number of your object.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Tony Nemo

[druitre]

A warning as in: letting the user know the program is making changes to user's files. I spent hours painting a texture to find out I couldn't use it on my mesh because 3DC had subdivided it without informing me.

A number being twice as high as a number I cannot see at that place (without opening another program) I would hardly call informative.

[Tony Nemo]

A warning as in: letting the user know the program is making changes to user's files. I spent hours painting a texture to find out I couldn't use it on my mesh because 3DC had subdivided it without informing me.

A number being twice as high as a number I cannot see at that place (without opening another program) I would hardly call informative.

The imported UVs were subdivided? I thought it was only for visualization! No 'smoothing' always get's me a faceted image. Examin the UV Editor in the 'unusable' OBJ to see if things were exported on a map different than the one you started with.

[druitre]

Nope, no imported UV's, this is about Ptex - 3DC creates the Ptex map, softimage can read/map that onto the object. It's the object that was subdivided without me knowing. Hence no match anymore between the map 3DC created and the object in Softimage.

[digman]

It does give you a warning, Read the top part of the dialog box. Yes, it is not highlighted but it is there...

Ptex and Micro -Vertex mode are for true polygon displacement. You are displacing the polygons when using depth. It is common knowledge that true polygon displacement requires quads or as a new user of 3DC you did not realized that there was true polygon displacement using Ptex or Micro-Vertex mode.

Now since, all you want is the ptex files, exporting the model is unnecessary. Now if you did want to export the model but have the true displacement of polygons using depth, in the export dialog box, you would choose export low polygon version and"pick positions from layer zero". Your model would be exported as you had imported it with no changes.

No textures files are needed in the export dialog box since your are exporting ptex files from the textures menu.

Some of the problems you are encountering are from just not understanding the structure of 3DCoat.

[Tony Nemo]

Can you retopo the original Softimage object? Seems a shame to lose all that work.

[digman]

He is using Ptex which has no uv map... He already has a low polygon version. The warning was there as stated in my last post, so sometimes we just lose some work learning a new program... I been there and done that...

Druitre wants no subdivision upon import to match the low polygon version in Softimage. He will need all quads when exporting his model from softimage. He just exported the model triangulated that is all.

[druitre]

I did not export triangulated, the model is not mine and is made of 16000 quads and 4 triangles. There is where my problem lies - there can be all the describing text in the world in the dialog box, but if I don't know there are nonquads in my mesh and don't know how many faces, there is nothing to inform me that it is being subdivided on import.

The number at 'carcass' has only meaning if you know how many polys your object has to begin with. And 3DC doesn't tell you.

All in all, I still think 3DC should inform me on import with a 'this object appears to contain nonquad polygons, for Ptex to function 3DC needs to subdivide your object' message.

[digman]

Pre-Check your model using 3DCoat before importing into the paint room and you can fix the triangles as well. There are a couple ways to do this in 3DCoat. The below I believe would best for your workflow.

From the File Menu / import / reference mesh. This will load the model into the paint room.

Switch to the retopo room.

Retopo menu / import/ Now Import the same mesh. It will import as a retopo mesh. Press enter and when asked to snap the mesh to the surface select no. The mesh already fits the model.

At the bottom of the screen, you will see how many polygons (faces) there are plus if there are any real triangles (Tris) or ngons in the mesh. The triangle number on the far right is only informing you how many triangles there would be if the mesh got trianglulated.

OK, Retopo menu again, Scroll down till you see "Select Faces" Choose triangles, They will be highlighted in yellow on the retopo mesh. Now you can go about turning them into quads manually using the retopo tools. One drawback is once you select one triangle the others will deselect, so you have to go back and select faces again...

Once you are done fixing stuff,

Retopo menu / Export...

Done and ready for importing using Ptex and of course into softimage with now the model having all quads..

Please remember I am only trying to help with the information provided in the thread. Do I hit it 100% time of course not but do my best...