Something wrong with 3d coat clay brush?

[RabenWulf]

Just now, AbnRanger said:

Wrong. Doing the video can prove conclusively whether there is any truth to the your claims...claims wihich I say are bogus. You have a bias and I have a bias, so let's put the cards on the table and see who is right and who is wrong. One of us has to be. My contention is that you've been just repeating what you've heard other ZBrush users say, and have not really experienced this huge disparity, yourself. You hate the brushes. I like them. Only one way to found out and this would be a good way for everyone to see whether there is any truth to this notion (that 3D Coat brushes suck, as you say).

There are enough videos going over what zbrush does, what comes out of it and how its used... just watching a zbrush video and a  3d coat video on sculpting shows the difference. You wont seriously learn zbrush before you make a conclusion, yet you want me to go and start making youtube videos for you? Its unnecessary. I took the time to learn and seriously use 3d coat, why dont you do the same with zbrush?

"My contention is that you've been just repeating what you've heard other ZBrush users say, and have not really experienced this huge disparity, yourself "

Your contention is just confirmation bias. I OWN ZBRUSH, so how foolish is it for you blindly proclaim that I am just repeating what other zbrush users say? How can you blindly make such an absurd claim, one that you cannot objectively back up?  I put down money, time and effort to learn a large assortment of applications. I like 3D Coat but want it to get better, otherwise I wouldnt be here. Do continue to learn and objectively analyze various applications? What about exist in application neutral art communities? Perspective matters.

The disparity in brush strokes/displacement, in masking, in grouping and workflow, its real. You would not figure this out though if you keep running away from learning and analyzing zbrush. You dont even have to like zbrush to see what its doing right or better, where the standard has been set and vice versa. Common sense.

Also stop going back to this old "3d coat brushes suck" projection you have a habit of doing. Just because something isnt up to where it could be doesnt mean it "sucks". Can you not look at everything in such black or white terms? There is improvement to be made here. Whatever label you choose to tack onto the current status of the brush system for sculpting doesnt matter, only that there is improvement to be had and that its obvious it should come well ahead of something like sculpt layers.

[RabenWulf]

19 minutes ago, metrons said:

lots of great info here, thanks everyone. i've tried rapid and mud and buildup. they all produce weird strokes still. i say weird coming from zbrush, i know how a stroke will get laid down. i guess in the meantime im going to build out my shapes and detail them mostly in zbrush...sigh...

 

i still think 3dcoat needs some work on its clay type brushes. sure love sculpting in this program though. i just dont think the brushes are there. 

You see it as well =)
Its something zbrush users or those with serious experience with zbrush would notice.

One thing I am confused about is that if the "presets" are so good and are the answer to every bad brush in 3D Coat, why are they not the defaults? There is some maintenance required to clean up the whole set of tools/brushes.

Agree that sculpting is a bit more fun in 3D Coat though, its more familiar and conventional.
 

[AbnRanger]

I'm not concerned with what is on the ZBrush forums. YOU are here on a 3D Coat forum bashing 3D Coat's sculpting tools and your comparison of them is bogus in my opinion....so it's your opinion vs. mine. If there is any legitimacy to your claims, you won't continue to get defensive, but rather provide a simple recorded demonstration of what you say are huge disparities.

[AbnRanger]

....if you firmly believe your claims and are not just repeating what you've heard other state, you will have no problem recording a demonstration to stand behind your claims. I'm willing to stick my neck out and do the same, so let's both take the challenge.

[RabenWulf]

1 minute ago, AbnRanger said:

I'm not concerned with what is on the ZBrush forums. YOU are here on a 3D Coat forum bashing 3D Coat's sculpting tools and your comparison of them is bogus in my opinion....so it's your opinion vs. mine. If there is any legitimacy to your claims, you won't continue to get defensive, but rather provide a simple recorded demonstration of what you say are huge disparities.

Funny, I clearly said "What about exist in application neutral art communities?"
How on gods green earth did you get zbrush forums from that? Why do you think everyone not singing the praise of 3D Coat sculpting is some how some plant from the zbrush forums? Its insane. Take off the tinfoil hat please. I am recommending you spend some on time on non application centric forums, get out of the echo chamber for yourself and interact with artist from all over with no one exact set of tools. Polycount is one such recommendation.

The fact you ignored everything else has been noted.

[RabenWulf]

2 minutes ago, AbnRanger said:

....if you firmly believe your claims and are not just repeating what you've heard other state, you will have no problem recording a demonstration to stand behind your claims. I'm willing to stick my neck out and do the same, so let's both take the challenge.

I can say the same to you, pick up and learn zbrush first... use it on a project, know it inside and out then come back and talk to me. I already explained why your "challenge" is pointless, but you seem to be using it as a kind of shield.

[metrons]

i agree.  I am hoping the brushes get some work, i am bummed about some of the sculpting brushes because i know what brushes are in zbrush and how they work. they have a very natural feel to them, they behave how you'd imagine the tool would behave. it just feels right when sculpting. in 3d coat some of the brushes just feel awkward. i'm a lead character artist, i've done a lot of sculpting in my life and 3dcoat just feels funky with some of its brushes. 

i LOVE 3d coat though. i love the shit out of this program. i just wish the sculpting tools could have a polish pass. the trim dynamic brush in zbrush...amazing, i got similar results in 3dcoat. its just not the same though. 

[AbnRanger]

16 minutes ago, RabenWulf said:

Funny, I clearly said "What about exist in application neutral art communities?"
How on gods green earth did you get zbrush forums from that? Why do you think everyone not singing the praise of 3D Coat sculpting is some how some plant from the zbrush forums? Its insane. Take off the tinfoil hat please. I am recommending you spend some on time on non application centric forums, get out of the echo chamber for yourself and interact with artist from all over with no one exact set of tools. Polycount is one such recommendation.

The fact you ignored everything else has been noted.

It's as simple as this...if you believe there is any truth to your claims, stand behind it by demonstrating it. Anyone can make a claim. I'm asking you to show us, not just tell us. And where I differ with your views, I will stand behind my words and in kind, demonstrate why I disagree. All you are doing is rebutting with words...which don't mean much. Record something and I'll follow up with my own recording. It's a simple and harmless challenge.

[AbnRanger]

7 minutes ago, metrons said:

i agree.  I am hoping the brushes get some work, i am bummed about some of the sculpting brushes because i know what brushes are in zbrush and how they work. they have a very natural feel to them, they behave how you'd imagine the tool would behave. it just feels right when sculpting. in 3d coat some of the brushes just feel awkward. i'm a lead character artist, i've done a lot of sculpting in my life and 3dcoat just feels funky with some of its brushes. 

i LOVE 3d coat though. i love the shit out of this program. i just wish the sculpting tools could have a polish pass. the trim dynamic brush in zbrush...amazing, i got similar results in 3dcoat. its just not the same though. 

One thing I've noticed with Andrew is you often have to SHOW him, what you are referring to. I've had to do that with a lot of feature requests...including one we recently got in 4.7. The ability to extrude on the fly with the Transform tool. I had to record a short demonstration of how it works in 3ds Max. The only real difference now is just the hotkey. In Max, it's the SHIFT key, but in the Retopo workspace, the hotkey is ENTER (you don't have to hold it down. Just tap it once). I don't think it would be a major undertaking on his part to make the suggested changes. You just have to SHOW him how it is different, and he can decide how to change it. Good luck.

[AbnRanger]

27 minutes ago, RabenWulf said:

I can say the same to you, pick up and learn zbrush first... use it on a project, know it inside and out then come back and talk to me. I already explained why your "challenge" is pointless, but you seem to be using it as a kind of shield.

See the difference between your response and mine? You chose lash out, insult and get defensive. Telling someone "go learn ZBrush and come back to me" is an adolescent response and doesn't prove you know what you are talking about. I just asked you to DEMONSTRATE this major disparity. And that when you do, I will likewise DEMONSTRATE why there is no such disparity. That's all. Sure they are going to be some slight differences in feel and behavior, but in terms of whether it prevents a user from getting the same work done, in the same frame of time...absolutely not.

Come on. Enough with the bluster. Just show us. 

[metrons]

that makes sense ranger. i'll try and get a video together this week and PM him i guess? i agree, showing is always way easier to describe something like this. 

 

cheers

[AbnRanger]

 

[RabenWulf]

That video really doesnt say much, its obvious the results are not nearly the same nor can you make sweeping judgements based on carving a few lines on a sphere or flattening a few edges....

How do you show a feeling? With ZB there is a feel, a kind of quality to the how the mesh is being displaced as well as as a form of control via the wacom pen thats present. When you mix this with the brushes and the options tied to the brushes (very simple) you get flawless results. This impacts the quality of the sculpt. Thats why you wont get it until you actually get over your zbrush interface trauma and for at least curiosity sake figure out what they are doing different that results in such good results. Its the difference of having a fine scalpel and a mallet. 
Other areas are worth a video demo, such as masking, polygroups, transform/posing, and overall mesh control... but there are hundreds of videos already covering that.

With ZB you can pull out an entire arm, with finely detailed muscles, fingers and automatic polygroups from one sphere easily... masking gives quick and detailed control when pulling out geometry, no fiddling with pose tool settings or artifacts, no swaping between voxel and surface mode. No need for curves. Just easy mask, pull, and sculpt. Doing the same thing with 3D Coat, even using voxel mode's curve or freeze brushes takes way too long and its extremely low in quality, trying to detail on top of it becomes more of a struggle than is necessary.

This can be solved in 3DC with improving the sculpting quality across the board, reassessing how "pose" and "transform" work, how masking is currently implemented and the lack of fine control over the masks, the ability to mask by depth, or get some kind of selection group (polygroup) to easily work with. Too many brushes act like you are squeezing out toothpaste and not finely layering on surface mass. Its critical to understand why this is important and the easiest way to do so is to "taste" zbrush seriously.
 

 

[AbnRanger]

52 minutes ago, RabenWulf said:

That video really doesnt say much, its obvious the results are not nearly the same nor can you make sweeping judgements based on carving a few lines on a sphere or flattening a few edges....

How do you show a feeling? With ZB there is a feel, a kind of quality to the how the mesh is being displaced as well as as a form of control via the wacom pen thats present. When you mix this with the brushes and the options tied to the brushes (very simple) you get flawless results. This impacts the quality of the sculpt. Thats why you wont get it until you actually get over your zbrush interface trauma and for at least curiosity sake figure out what they are doing different that results in such good results. Its the difference of having a fine scalpel and a mallet. 
Other areas are worth a video demo, such as masking, polygroups, transform/posing, and overall mesh control... but there are hundreds of videos already covering that.

With ZB you can pull out an entire arm, with finely detailed muscles, fingers and automatic polygroups from one sphere easily... masking gives quick and detailed control when pulling out geometry, no fiddling with pose tool settings or artifacts, no swaping between voxel and surface mode. No need for curves. Just easy mask, pull, and sculpt. Doing the same thing with 3D Coat, even using voxel mode's curve or freeze brushes takes way too long and its extremely low in quality, trying to detail on top of it becomes more of a struggle than is necessary.

This can be solved in 3DC with improving the sculpting quality across the board, reassessing how "pose" and "transform" work, how masking is currently implemented and the lack of fine control over the masks, the ability to mask by depth, or get some kind of selection group (polygroup) to easily work with. Too many brushes act like you are squeezing out toothpaste and not finely layering on surface mass. Its critical to understand why this is important and the easiest way to do so is to "taste" zbrush seriously.
 

 

You don't have to show a "feeling." If the quality of the brush strokes are as inferior as you claim, it will be apparent. The "feeling" is most certainly there in 3D Coat. You just refuse to give it any credit, when much is due. A Mecedes doesn't have to have the same FEEL behind the wheel as a Lexus to make it a fine luxury automobile. But some people, like yourself will take the glass half-empty view of things. Same goes for Masking and Polygroups. SHOW US THE DISCREPANCY, rather than just telling us. I know about Polygroups, and after you attempt to show where 3D Coat comes up short, I'm going to show you where you are wrong and do not know 3D Coat as well as you think you do. There is a LOT of the same functionality of polygroups right within 3D Coat.

Just show us, already, so everyone can learn from benefit from this little challenge.

[RabenWulf]

2 minutes ago, AbnRanger said:

You don't have to show a "feeling." If the quality of the brush strokes are as inferior as you claim, it will be apparent. The "feeling" is most certainly there in 3D Coat. You just refuse to give it any credit, when much is due. A Mecedes doesn't have to have the same FEEL behind the wheel as a Lexus to make it a fine luxury automobile. But some people, like yourself will take the glass half-empty view of things. Same goes for Masking and Polygroups. SHOW US THE DISCREPANCY, rather than just telling us. I know about Polygroups, and after you attempt to show where 3D Coat comes up short, I'm going to show you where you are wrong and do not know 3D Coat as well as you think you do. There is a LOT of the same functionality of polygroups right within 3D Coat.

Just show us, already, so everyone can learn from benefit from this little challenge.

Hey, at least I have the balls and maturity to buy and or seriously learn software before making a conclusion off of it. You should try that some time with zbrush, it is obvious you wont though. Its not hard to do what I am asking you to do, it is far more relevant than making youtube videos of stuff you can already find all over youtube. Something is wrong with you if you cant even go and do that much. Using cars as some kind of magic comparison is nothing short of a logical fallacy. It is silly, stop it.

Why dont you go seriously learn zbrush? Talking from experience is a lot more productive, but hey I cant expect too much from a fanboy right? I'm not going to play your "show me your videos" game, its not a good shield nor will you seem to accept why its not necessary. Might as well argue semantics at this point since thats about as far as you are willing to go.

[Carlosan]

Yes, people have disagreement's in forums, here and everywhere else. But, the attitude demonstrated in this thread is not helpful.

CLOSED