Mudbox 2009 online docs are available.

[rimasson]

Mudbox 2009 online docs are available here

Audodesk improved a couple of thing, especially the brushes presets.

They ripped some from zbrush 3, added new ones, and i think that there are a few good ideas

[PoopaScoop]

To be honest I think 3Dcoat is so close to squashing it's competition. Although sculpting workflow methods seemed to be overlooked. Eg. The benefits of being able to step up and down levels. Once thats addressed and the brushes are improved, I think, then you'll even have people jumping from Mudbox and Zbrush to 3dcoat as their main program.

[paulrus]

I have to disagree. While I think 3DC has some phenomenal tools, it's become quite clear the interface is really starting to bog down. MB2009 has an incredibly artist friendly interface. I sincerely hope Andrew will be successful enough to be able to hire a top-level interface designer to help reorganize 3DC.

If 3DC had a very well-thought-out interface that was aimed squarely at artists, I think it absolutely could be the #1 program of it's kind.

[Andrew Shpagin]

I have to disagree. While I think 3DC has some phenomenal tools, it's become quite clear the interface is really starting to bog down. MB2009 has an incredibly artist friendly interface. I sincerely hope Andrew will be successful enough to be able to hire a top-level interface designer to help reorganize 3DC.

If 3DC had a very well-thought-out interface that was aimed squarely at artists, I think it absolutely could be the #1 program of it's kind.

Btw, we started to work with professional UI designer now to create new interface look & feel.

[lc8b105]

Btw, we started to work with professional UI designer now to create new interface look & feel.

Great news.

[paulrus]

That's great to hear! If 3DC's interface matches the power it already has, you're going to be extremely successful. It already is the best price/performance option on the market.

[kadu3d]

Btw, we started to work with professional UI designer now to create new interface look & feel.

That is a WISE decision. I think UI is really important for MARKETING.

You can have very professional tools but if you dont have a very professional UI...

[geo_n]

pls dont make it too icon based. hehe

[StereoMike]

I could very well live with a word-based UI like XSI

That way you don't need to wait for the tooltip to know what a button is about.

mike

btw great decision to overhaul the UI!!!

[geo_n]

I could very well live with a word-based UI like XSI

That way you don't need to wait for the tooltip to know what a button is about.

mike

btw great decision to overhaul the UI!!!

Agree, I dont know why people like icon based programs. Only geeks would learn it absolutely.

hard enough to learn one 3d app but when the boss wants you to learn three 3d appz, two compositing software, in a short time....

anyway life would be easier for a 3d generalist if the software was easy to understand

[paulrus]

I totally agree - 100%. Icon based systems are TERRIBLE. I much prefer the XSI / LW way of having text-based buttons.

However, I would also suggest strongly that you have someone totally fluent in English - who also works or has worked professionally in 3D, handle the button translations.

I still find some of the verbiage confusing in 3DC because it's not totally consistent with other 3D software on the market in the terms it uses.

[3dioot]

Btw, we started to work with professional UI designer now to create new interface look & feel.

Very happy to hear that. As long as you listen to the users also it cant go wrong.

Little surprised at all the icon haters in this thread. I find an icon much easier to find back then a text button. Text buttons take up enormous space compare to icons also. And i polymodel in XSI so its not like im not just used to them. Zbrush has way too big "icons" (they are more like slides) for brushes. But the way mudbox handles them is perfect. Small, recognizable, always available to the user. Dont see how making those icons text buttons would improve the interface at all.

3dioot

[Mantis]

I agreed with idiot, I don't see icon base UI like evil, especially for this kind of appz, it is really easy to remember those icons and it is faster than finding a word.

Plus the icons get their name so everyone is happy

And I'm also happy to see that you got a professionnal UI designer, can't wait to see what it will bring.

Talking mudbox, while taking a look at their documentation I saw 1 sculpting tools that could be interesting, the Fill tool "The Fill tool fills in cavities on the models surface by determining a plane based on the average of the vertices within the boundary of the tool and then pulling the vertices under the plane towards that plane."

It's a quite interesting tool, I want to see how it behave.

[3dioot]

I agreed with idiot, I don't see icon base UI like evil, especially for this kind of appz, it is really easy to remember those icons and it is faster than finding a word.

Plus the icons get their name so everyone is happy

And I'm also happy to see that you got a professionnal UI designer, can't wait to see what it will bring.

Talking mudbox, while taking a look at their documentation I saw 1 sculpting tools that could be interesting, the Fill tool "The Fill tool fills in cavities on the models surface by determining a plane based on the average of the vertices within the boundary of the tool and then pulling the vertices under the plane towards that plane."

It's a quite interesting tool, I want to see how it behave.

Have you tried the tool called "spray/thaw" in voxel sculpting yet? You may like it (i know i do).

3dioot

[Mantis]

Ho that's what it does?

I have to take a deeper look at it so, because I didn't notice that it does that.

Edit:

You're right it is a really good tool and it does pretty much the same thing, but not exactly, I think this tool can be good because spray/thraw continue to pull the surface after filling the holes.

And Fill seems to only average.

But thank you for making me discovering this tool, it is really powerful, I felt in love

[geo_n]

Very happy to hear that. As long as you listen to the users also it cant go wrong.

Little surprised at all the icon haters in this thread. I find an icon much easier to find back then a text button. Text buttons take up enormous space compare to icons also. And i polymodel in XSI so its not like im not just used to them. Zbrush has way too big "icons" (they are more like slides) for brushes. But the way mudbox handles them is perfect. Small, recognizable, always available to the user. Dont see how making those icons text buttons would improve the interface at all.

3dioot

I dont really hate icons. Its just not practical in a studio with a fast paced tv and cm production. We get a lot of freelancers to do stuff for us and most of the time we have to edit,etc their work not just in one app. I'm using lw, max, maya and I just don't like to use too many appz but got no choice since its part of the job. Thank God we don't hire c4d or xsi people. We have a license for bojou and massive which are gathering dust and its just the case that you can't learn them while working on real projects unless you dont want to leave your pc 24/7. I'm not a nerd to do that. Haha. And I was teaching one of our web guys here to start learning 3D and he was most comfortable with lightwave since the words are clearly more understandable than a bunch of icons.

Are you still in school? I read somewhere about you mentioning your parents. Anyway if it is the case then you might have enough time to really study a program. For me I don't and usually its go in with guns blazing in max or maya. hehe.

Anyway I had too much sake tonight I just checked my email.

[3dioot]

Are you still in school? I read somewhere about you mentioning your parents. Anyway if it is the case then you might have enough time to really study a program. For me I don't and usually its go in with guns blazing in max or maya. hehe.

Anyway I had too much sake tonight I just checked my email.

A little assumptious perhaps? Even if i would be a student it would change nothing for the validity of my arguments.

I work fulltime and i use several software packages throughout my day. My daily bread and butter is more oriented to CAD then 3d. At my work im also responsible for keeping everything up and running (software wise), creating scripted tools and menu's and for training the people i work with. I actually did finish the first year of a study which focussed on GUI design. In the end it wasnt the study for me but it might be interesting to mention in light of this discussion we are having.

3dioot

[geo_n]

A little assumptious perhaps? Even if i would be a student it would change nothing for the validity of my arguments.

I work fulltime and i use several software packages throughout my day. My daily bread and butter is more oriented to CAD then 3d. At my work im also responsible for keeping everything up and running (software wise), creating scripted tools and menu's and for training the people i work with. I actually did finish the first year of a study which focussed on GUI design. In the end it wasnt the study for me but it might be interesting to mention in light of this discussion we are having.

3dioot

Yeah I assumed you were still in school. Nothing bad about that. People go thru it.

And actually younger people tend to be more advanced so they learn stuff faster. i've seen 14 year olds that do 3D near pro level. Anyway if you did study gui design, wasn't learning curve part of the design psychology? People especially artists tend to be non technical. I started 3D with autocad 6 years ago and have no problem with commandline, graphic icons, text icons, but most designers I meet are rarely inclined to know and remember graphic icons. Its usually the case that you can't teach a techy to be an artist and an artist to be too techy. The techy would make crappy work and the artist would produce the work much slower. Again these are personal observations I've made with new employees getting into 3D. Graphic icons are ok to a limit, I posted not to make 3dc too much icon based. I have to try mudbox to see what they offer since I hear some people wanting this style of gui for 3dc. I have yet to hear people wanting zbrush style gui for 3dc. Lol!

[lc8b105]

It's seem that the coming new GUI has already caused great attention. Things are growing better and better.

[3dioot]

Yes learning curve was part of the study (and a whole lot more). Yes i learned how people create imaginary maps in their heads of how an app works and how important it is to make certain its easy to map down the main road before meeting all the side roads. Blablabla.. You are convinced you are right. You are convinced that a new person sitting down who can read "extrude" on a button instead of seeing an icon would recognize the text version faster and that that alone would make it better. Its not. Good GUI design is not just graded on how fast new users learn it. Good GUI design should have a positive influence on the learning curve but its main purpose is to really shine when you are down into the program and working hard and making money. Its less then smart to design your GUI based on people new to 3d who's only goal is to learn the app as fast as possible.

Yes learning curves exist. They are unavoidable. The programs that seem to be harder to get into most of the time are also really great when you learn them. (exceptions always exist ofcourse) Take XSI for example. It has quite a difficult selection scheme going on where you have a pretty intense amount of shortcut combinations. It was hard to learn but now i can polymodel faster and more fluently in that package then in any other i tried. Just because the selection method is so incredibly well thought out. Does that make it easier to learn? Hell no. Does that make it fantastic to polymodell with when you have put in the effort and now have to finish stuff really fast. Hell yes.

Regarding Zbrush. I dont see what zbrush's interface has to do with this. Its loathed by many. In fact before i could use it i had to rearrange it, make macro's linked to buttons linked to brushes because if i would assign shortcuts directly to brushes it would crap out and half copy settings when i switched tools. I even had to replace the normal save with a script or it would crash on save. (in other words download a plugin to be able to save your work consistently) As great as it is in certain aspects it is as horribly garbage in others. The fact that in its default layout you are forced to get to your brushes through a flyout menu, with big slides, which rearranges itself depending on the last brush you used is the most shining example of bad GUI design known to me. Sure you can create your own GUI (which is what i did) but that kind of defies the point of having one in the first place.

Let's just say Im glad Andrew has hired a -professional- to do the GUI. Combined with user input it should turn out great.

3dioot

[lc8b105]

Oh man, so many texts... Admire your English

[PoopaScoop]

Glad to hear it's getting a face lift. The best interface out there is Silo, and it's a textbase interface. Theres no trying to workout what and icon is, it's fantastic. Modo is also good

[geo_n]

Yes learning curve was part of the study (and a whole lot more). Yes i learned how people create imaginary maps in their heads of how an app works and how important it is to make certain its easy to map down the main road before meeting all the side roads. Blablabla.. You are convinced you are right. You are convinced that a new person sitting down who can read "extrude" on a button instead of seeing an icon would recognize the text version faster and that that alone would make it better. Its not. Good GUI design is not just graded on how fast new users learn it. Good GUI design should have a positive influence on the learning curve but its main purpose is to really shine when you are down into the program and working hard and making money. Its less then smart to design your GUI based on people new to 3d who's only goal is to learn the app as fast as possible.

Yes learning curves exist. They are unavoidable. The programs that seem to be harder to get into most of the time are also really great when you learn them. (exceptions always exist ofcourse) Take XSI for example. It has quite a difficult selection scheme going on where you have a pretty intense amount of shortcut combinations. It was hard to learn but now i can polymodel faster and more fluently in that package then in any other i tried. Just because the selection method is so incredibly well thought out. Does that make it easier to learn? Hell no. Does that make it fantastic to polymodell with when you have put in the effort and now have to finish stuff really fast. Hell yes.

Regarding Zbrush. I dont see what zbrush's interface has to do with this. Its loathed by many. In fact before i could use it i had to rearrange it, make macro's linked to buttons linked to brushes because if i would assign shortcuts directly to brushes it would crap out and half copy settings when i switched tools. I even had to replace the normal save with a script or it would crash on save. (in other words download a plugin to be able to save your work consistently) As great as it is in certain aspects it is as horribly garbage in others. The fact that in its default layout you are forced to get to your brushes through a flyout menu, with big slides, which rearranges itself depending on the last brush you used is the most shining example of bad GUI design known to me. Sure you can create your own GUI (which is what i did) but that kind of defies the point of having one in the first place.

Let's just say Im glad Andrew has hired a -professional- to do the GUI. Combined with user input it should turn out great.

3dioot

Seems like a useful study for you that time. Yes I'm convinced that its easier to understand the word "extrude" than to see a box showing a graphic symbol of a box getting extruded. Unless english is not your first language. But the second choice of making graphic based program is well only a nerds language or the programmers self interpretation of his programs commands.

If you don't see what zbrush gui has to do with the gui discussion then what's the point of your long post about it? The fact that you stated its loathed by many already has something to do with bad gui design which 3dc needs to avoid. Since zbrush is clearly the market leader what's the incentive to learn another sculpting program? Its not the price for the studios but the output and useability. So I hope that 3dc will still be easy to use and not convulated. Just make it more powerful than the other sculpting programs.

[lc8b105]

I'd like to see an innovative GUI, which beyond the reach of our imagination, but high efficiency for the work flow

[3dioot]

@ geo_n

"nerd's language"? Do you really expect me to continue this discussion while you make statements such as those? Its not a fact its your opinion. Ever heard of the expression "a picture says more then a thousand words"?

English is not my native language yet i have no problems comprehending or writing it and it has nothing to do with me disliking text based buttons. I think they have their place but the iconphobia on display here is just ungrounded.

Regarding zbrush. Its only because they had a monopoly position that they have gotten away with their interface. This doesnt make them automatically great which was in fact my point. While the original mudbox was worse then zbrush regarding features and performance some people still preferred it simply because of its interface alone.

You left out the core of my post regarding learning curve vs workflow when your earning money.

Im certain we want the same thing in the end. We just have different idea's how to go about it.

Lets just agree to disagree. I dont think this discussion really adds things that have not been said before.

[SonK]

my 2 cent, no text only GUI..i would not buy 3.0 if it was text like XSI/Lightwave(i hate their GUI with a passion). If you draw from existing GUI, look at Mudbox(not Zbrush/LW3D/XSI). Tools should be bottom, property pages on the right. Tabs on the top left corner can be use to switch to 2D/UV/3D,etc.

[rimasson]

my 2 cents : it take me more time to read a text button than to recognize an icon. Maybe it's a matter of habit. I didn't practiced 3dc sculpting that much

[geo_n]

@ geo_n

"nerd's language"? Do you really expect me to continue this discussion while you make statements such as those? Its not a fact its your opinion. Ever heard of the expression "a picture says more then a thousand words"?

English is not my native language yet i have no problems comprehending or writing it and it has nothing to do with me disliking text based buttons. I think they have their place but the iconphobia on display here is just ungrounded.

Regarding zbrush. Its only because they had a monopoly position that they have gotten away with their interface. This doesnt make them automatically great which was in fact my point. While the original mudbox was worse then zbrush regarding features and performance some people still preferred it simply because of its interface alone.

You left out the core of my post regarding learning curve vs workflow when your earning money.

Im certain we want the same thing in the end. We just have different idea's how to go about it.

Lets just agree to disagree. I dont think this discussion really adds things that have not been said before.

yep nerds language . aren't maya users nerds? all that eyecandy. kidding. I loathe it but I have to use it.

I think zbrush had more than monopoly in their game. It was innovative and still is the most powerful sculpting app today. The core of your post, I missed that one. But regarding workflow and earning money the most important for studios to exist is producing commercial art streamlined and efficient. We are not making personal projects that have no deadline to be masterpieces in cgforums. And when the company has multiple projects, new people have to be hired(freelance, contractual,etc) or the projects go to other studios. These new people need to learn the programs in less than a month. I learned in 3dc in a week maybe. It was that easy compared to zbrush and mudbox. And those few days I got a project which paid for my personal investment in 3dc with a lot of pocket change. That's the kind of program studios would be looking at to add to their pipeline. The company I work for is looking at zbrush and mudbox. I haven't mentioned 3dc yet because it needs to be more powerful. But if 3dc changed drastically to a different workflow and gui, what's the incentive to buy it than zbrush or mudbox? Management will go with whats popular to ensure they didn't waste their investment unless the employees convice them that 3dc is easier to use and equally powerful.

[Arkanis]

Ok people, time for a little insight to calm down a little bit the things going on here...

I'm "involved" in the new 3D-Coat UI design. So I wanted to make some statements here about the new UI Design :

The two options will be available to use, "text only" interface and "icon based" interface, and both at the same time if you wish. For the icon based one the layout will be different, icons will be redrawn to something that is more representative and "universal" for everyone. Some tools will be renamed to something more universal and common in most 3D applications.

There will be a lot more changes in the UI, but I'm not able to talk about them for now, and we have to plan them with Andrew.

This is a complete overhaul of the interface to make it more Pro, more streamlined, and also to let you arrange it the way you want to fit the best possible your workflow.

As a hint I can give you the word : dockable/undockable panels.

We are taking ideas from well known packages but also implementing ours... so this will be an interseting mix for everyone and I beleive that in the end everyone will be please with the changes, and the custom layouts you will be able to make for youself.

Best regards,

A.

[lc8b105]

Hello Arkanis, will the new GUI be out before final release of 3.0 ?

Thanks for your great work.