3d-coat to zbrush - subdivisions

[nila3d]

I want to:

create low poly retopo in 3d-coat

sub divide this in 3d-coat until HIGH detail

export to zbrush retaining subdivision layers

currently i have to:

export LOW poly mesh to zbrush

subdivide and project this many times

this is slow and i imagine not as good result

I've also tried:

importing high detail mesh into zbrush

reconstruct subdiv

but it won't as it has triangles

even though I retopo with only quads

-nila3d

[philnolan3d]

Have you tried exporting the mesh directly from the voxel room? with File > Export Model? I haven't tried it yet but there's a new feature that will export that as quads to make it easier for importing to zbrush.

[BeatKitano]

Yes, but the export as dense quads is like his name says "dense". So, unless you have a fair amount of memory it will be painful, and you can't have division (at least you can't reconstruct from the high res version), you still need to remesh/project to do that.

Something that may be done, didn't try it myself and that's kind of a slow process but:

degrade your voxtool a fair amount, export as dense quads, import in zbrush, export the high res version as dense quads, import in zbrush, divide the low a couple of time to get enough poly to reproject the high res version onto low res version. I think that way you can have a fairly manageable version of your voxtool with a few subdiv levels fro adaptive degradation to kick in and maintain stable performance.

But as you can see that's a sloooow process (and again that may not work as expected). And as always it's better to have a real polyflow especially if you intend to animate your base mesh sculpt.

[michalis]

Export scene from voxels palette. Export low def retopo mesh. Subdivide and reproject all in zbrush. It takes 10 sec

Its the best way because

1. You dont lose any vox details at all

2. In any case you imported to zbrush for sculpt more so any artifacts can be easily edited. (but you wont find any)

3. You don't need recostruct subs, so the retopo mesh can contain tris or even ngons (ask zbrush to convert them as zb2 method)

4. You already have some nice UVs too. A baked texture also, as preview. You'll edit them once more in the end (I guess)

The dense quads export is slow and useless for the moment as has wrong scale and can't be combined with the retopo mesh.

The export scene command is the only that saves the right scaling.

cheers.

[BeatKitano]

The dense quads export is slow and useless for the moment

I don't want to make waves again, but if it doesn't work for you, don't use it, I personally found it extremely usefull before vox brush overhaul.

[artman]

Subdivide and reproject all in zbrush. It takes 10 sec

Sorry Michalis,but no....It does not takes 10 sec.

Reprojecting a 14mil poly subtool takes at least 5-10 minutes on my machine.

And Project All can VERY create artifacts and spikes.Try more complex surfaces you will see.

Zbrushcentral is full of projection problems in troubleshooting section.

Exporting a dense quad mesh is much faster.

You get what you see.

Direct sculpting...no hassle.

Of course scale with retopo is still not fixed but at least scale among each layers between themselves is respected.

[polyxo]

Hi Artman - how do you tackle the Size difference issue though - or don't you get non matching meshes

when using "Dense Quads?

[polyxo]

see here.

Ok, I guess I understand now. You use Dense Quads but don't even try to project Detail onto a lowres mesh, right?

Edited November 18, 2010 by polyxo

[artman]

Hi Artman - how do you tackle the Size difference issue though - or don't you get non matching meshes

when using "Dense Quads?

There is size difference between Voxel/retopo room but not between each voxel layers of a same scene.

So you

-import to ZB as dense quad.

-finish Sculpting there.

Then if you want to retopo you decimate to 3 mil per subtools with DecimationMaster (3mil in DM means 20milion with No details loss)and export to Reference Mesh in 3DC.There you can bake Normal map and paint too.

[artman]

Ok, I guess I understand now. You use Dense Quads but don't even try to project Detail onto a lowres mesh, right?

Yes, that's it.

Project All is fast below 5 mil.And by fast I mean...bearable.

Above 5 mil its just plain ridiculous...a little bit like ZB occlusion masking.

Export Dense Quad is like having a superhires unified skin generated in 2 minutes...

I cant stop being in awe at this feature.

IMO its THE remesher.

[polyxo]

There is size difference between Voxel/retopo room but not between each voxel layers of a same scene.

So you

-import to ZB as dense quad.

-finish Sculpting there.

Then if you want to retopo you decimate to 3 mil per subtools with DecimationMaster (3mil in DM means 20milion with No details loss)and export to Reference Mesh in 3DC.There you can bake Normal map and paint too.

Thanks Artman,

as always valuable hints.

As you have great expertise both in Zbrush and 3DCoat - have you ever considered getting involved with

the development of the planned Applink? Even if you are no Programmer - I believe your contributions were very helpful...

In my imagination an Applink to Zbrush should work quite a bit differentfrom the already existing ones to bring the best

benefits.

[artman]

Thanks Artman,

as always valuable hints.

As you have great expertise both in Zbrush and 3DCoat - have you ever considered getting involved with

the development of the planned Applink? Even if you are no Programmer - I believe your contributions were very helpful...

In my imagination an Applink to Zbrush should work quite a bit differentfrom the already existing ones to bring the best

benefits.

Thanx,but Im too lazy.

I havent posted a single finished piece or a proper decent tutorial here and Ive been here since 2 years. ..

Anyway,Im sure its already being worked on since its been announced.

Who knows,maybe LJB is working on it...

[michalis]

Then if you want to retopo you decimate to 3 mil per subtools with DecimationMaster (3mil in DM means 20milion with No details loss)and export to Reference Mesh in 3DC.There you can bake Normal map and paint too.

Talking about n_maps is there a reason not to bake these maps in zbrush? IMO zb is better for this job. (no visible seams BTW)

Working on a mac, I've experienced difficulties to re-topo anything heavier than 1M.

Talking about 3dc to zb workflow, why should I re project a 15M mesh? Where did it came from? A base sculpture about 2-3M is what I want. Zbrush is much better for surface sculpture.

Having already a nice topology in zb, a 1-3 M is more than enough for a crisp sculpture. Higher res for pores and painting only.

Artifacts in re-projection are well known and there are indeed some fine controls for this job.

What I'm trying to say here is that a 10M voxel is less crisp than a 1M re-topoed mesh in zbrush. And I still (as so many others here) insist that a surface - sculpt room -after-retopology- is what missing from 3DC. AFTER RETOPO!.

Thats why I'm using zb. As a nice extension of 3dc. Projections of 1-3M take 2 sec for me. And no artifacts between -lets say- the two legs of this

http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6485&view=findpost&p=53531

-( I had to play with zb controls, 'distance' is by default 1, try less for more than 200k step, yes one step at a time)

- never export and decimate when in surface mode, volume mode works better

- I also use the shrink wrap technique in blender as well so to avoid ugly displacement maps. Much better.

A mac user with a 32 bit 3dc and a fine macpro (16threads xeons), what did you expect from me?

[artman]

Talking about n_maps is there a reason not to bake these maps in zbrush? IMO zb is better for this job. (no visible seams BTW)

Zbrush needs subdivision levels to bake normalmaps and disp maps,it cannot makes comparative normal maps from arbitrary lowpoly/hipoly like MB/3DCoat/Xnormals.

Im doing heavily multiparts models,I cannot reproject every single multimillion subtools...I dont have time for this.

Personally i never get seams from normal maps in 3DCoat.

If you do a search using Normap map+Seams in Zbrushcentral you will see dozens of thread started about seams problems.

Normal Map seams are a very occult problem.Very different from users to users.

Talking about 3dc to zb workflow, why should I re project a 15M mesh? Where did it came from? A base sculpture about 2-3M is what I want. Zbrush is much better for surface sculpture.

Having already a nice topology in zb, a 1-3 M is more than enough for a crisp sculpture. Higher res for pores and painting only.

You shouldnt anything. Im not trying to sell you my workflow.Personally 1-3 mil is not enough for me at all.

I need higher polycounts,not just for pores but for hardsurface crispness,quality of stamps like buttons and zippers ect...

What I'm trying to say here is that a 10M voxel is less crisp than a 1M re-topoed mesh in zbrush.

Thats not what I see on my side. A 10 mil piece exported in Zbrush as dense quad looks better than a re-projected 1 mil retopo of the same mesh.

Anyway,its the original sculpt...so it cannot be less crisp than a reprojection of it.

A mac user with a 32 bit 3dc and a fine macpro (16threads xeons), what did you expect from me?

I dont expect anything from you. Of course everyone has different workflow. Your workflow seems to work fine for you

[michalis]

Hey. what I wrote wasn't offensive. Its the requests topic and I tried to show how important is a sculpture-after retopo-room. Using zbrush in place. But its a nice discussion.

I need higher polycounts,not just for pores but for hardsurface crispness,quality of stamps like buttons and zippers ect...

Here comes retopology before start sculpting details. But 'stamps'? I know what you mean. So use zbrush only. Add more tools (layers), remesh all, continue. Similar to dense mesh topology. Why not?

When I claim that a 1-3 M nice retopoed mesh can be crisper in zbrush, I mean after some work not just the reprojection of course. Its a surface world, a cube has 8 vertices and its crisp. The nature of things. I can't expect same results from voxels. Even using 40M meshes.

There maybe more than one way to build a nice model. But we have to start from simple shapes and go for details after. I can understand the need of using simple shapes and details the same time though. This is what an artist needs sometimes. Its complicated to explain, I know. Here comes 3dc. A workflow to zb or mb is a one way (practically) method. Unfortunately. So everybody builds his personal workflow. Depending on his needs.

[artman]

Hey. what I wrote wasn't offensive. Its the requests topic and I tried to show how important is a sculpture-after retopo-room. Using zbrush in place. But its a nice discussion.

I havent found anything you wrote offensive.

So use zbrush only. Add more tools (layers), remesh all, continue. Similar to dense mesh topology.Why not?

I cant,I need easy cutting/copying operations of 3DCoat using splines/b-spline in e-panel,I cant work with Zb's clipping brushes,then remesh,then reproject..

Anyway,I just read the first post and its seems Im completely hijacking this thread with irrelevant infos.Sorry .

The OP asked about retaining Subd and Uvs so my workflow is not useful for him at all.

[michalis]

Lets try the opposite now. Lets have a 500k mesh (already fine retoped) in zbrush, some crisp details already, lets import it as voxels in 3dc. How much density do we need to catch this crispness? 10M? 20M? My point is more clear now.

BTW this fine conversation doesn't spoil the thread at all. (IMO) We should have a clear vision when trying to develop a personal workflow.