Member Dele Posted February 16, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Messiah studio does have muscle bones. I haven't used them yet, so not sure how well they work. Not as perty as CAT's muscles, but I would think they're functionally similar. Check out the tutorial in the docs: http://www.eggswhyzed.com/messiah_docs/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted February 16, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Messiah studio does have muscle bones. I haven't used them yet, so not sure how well they work. Not as perty as CAT's muscles, but I would think they're functionally similar. Check out the tutorial in the docs: http://www.eggswhyzed.com/messiah_docs/ Yeah...it looks like the tools available to do muscles are no better than using Max bones (but without Max's ability to shape the bones by adding an Edit Poly Modifier...or use a mesh object and convert it to a bone) or using the Skin Morph Modifier. The whole point of a muscle system is to be able to place objects in logical positions, that mimic the shape of various muscle groups, and help deform the mesh WITHOUT a lot of fussing with these types of tools. To get a very realistic look without a ton of finessing. I'm not really impressed with what I've seen thus far, in this regard. Messiah seems great for more cartoon-like characters, but until they add a bonified muscle system, that's about all I'd use it for. http://www.di-o-matic.com/products/plugins/Hercules/#page=overview http://www.lumonix.net/skinfx.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted February 16, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 How long is this deal running now it has finished? and did everyone that purchased get it working ok? I am possibly going to buy if i still can. It's good they are doing refunds (apparently) to the current owners also because if i owned a $1195 that was later just $40 i would get really annoyed, for everyone else though it seems like a amazing deal though. Also just wondering how well does it work in combination with 3DC? i noticed there is now a app link for it which is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I believe it's over for everyone now. It went on for about a week, then when the goal was finished they added an extra 24 hours, but the timer was weird, based on time zone or something, so some people had more time than others. Nobody has received their license yet, they should be sent out by the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted February 16, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Thanks for the info, I guess i missed out then... Since this has probably made the site get loads of traffic now maybe they will lower the main price to keep interest going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Well I still see the purchase options at the bottom of the page, you could still try it: http://projectmessiah.com/x6/shop.html The timer currently says it will end in -7 hrs 58 mins for me, so I don't know what's going on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member cookepuss Posted February 16, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Well I still see the purchase options at the bottom of the page, you could still try it: http://projectmessiah.com/x6/shop.html The timer currently says it will end in -7 hrs 58 mins for me, so I don't know what's going on there. Wish I could find the page again, but I read somewhere yesterday that the original cut off date was set to be the 20th. Could still be extending it that far. Then again, if they've met their goal, it could be cut off any minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member richdj Posted February 16, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Thanks for the info, I guess i missed out then... Since this has probably made the site get loads of traffic now maybe they will lower the main price to keep interest going. If you still want it, try and order a copy. The options are still there at the $10 and $40. PMG regularly have the price at a lower figure. I.E; $499 instead of $1199. They run that for ages, but I wouldn't expect to see it drop any lower than the previous $499 (or whatever it was) once they have finished with the viral Dare to Share. The timer is showing -16 hours for me, but the wording is, expected to end... Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member richdj Posted February 16, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Wish I could find the page again, but I read somewhere yesterday that the original cut off date was set to be the 20th. Could still be extending it that far. Then again, if they've met their goal, it could be cut off any minute. It's still allowing you to buy at the viral figures... It will just stop, but as of 2 mins ago you could still get it... Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member ghib Posted February 16, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Yeah...it looks like the tools available to do muscles are no better than using Max bones (but without Max's ability to shape the bones by adding an Edit Poly Modifier...or use a mesh object and convert it to a bone) or using the Skin Morph Modifier. The whole point of a muscle system is to be able to place objects in logical positions, that mimic the shape of various muscle groups, and help deform the mesh WITHOUT a lot of fussing with these types of tools. To get a very realistic look without a ton of finessing. I'm not really impressed with what I've seen thus far, in this regard. Messiah seems great for more cartoon-like characters, but until they add a bonified muscle system, that's about all I'd use it for. *snip* Yeah that's right AbnRanger you tell 'em Cartoony rubbish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Dele Posted February 16, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Yeah that's right AbnRanger you tell 'em Cartoony rubbish I think he might have been implying that CAT's muscle system may be faster/easier to set up. I have not tried it, so that may be the case. As you point out though, messiah studio is certainly capable of realistic muscle deformation. Ulven has been messing around with the Xerxes model from Infinite-Realities with some very compelling results. He mentioned that he was mostly using regular bones and muscle bones, but hinted that he had a few tricks up his sleeve too that he would divulge later. He did also mention using animated displacement maps as well, but didn't elaborate on that much yet. Still, good stuff! http://setuptab.com/index.php?topic=2321.0 Edit: Come to think of it, I don't believe any other animation package has auto-weighting similar to messiah studio. So that, along with some of messiah studio's other speed enhancers might negate any extra work you'd do setting up muscle systems. I guess the only way to find out for sure is to get your hands dirty and test it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Edit: Come to think of it, I don't believe any other animation package has auto-weighting similar to messiah studio. So that, along with some of messiah studio's other speed enhancers might negate any extra work you'd do setting up muscle systems. I guess the only way to find out for sure is to get your hands dirty and test it out. I haven't yet tried Messiah, but I understand it's a lot like LightWave's bones when you don't use weight maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Yeah LW and messiah function similarly, but only in that bones are weights. It goes beyond this, and has weight painting tools (which I've hardly needed to use) for traditional weighting, imported weights from another app (such as Modo, LW, etc) and meta effects, which are essentially weighting nulls/objects. I find that using meta effects to be the best way since you can also animate them. The muscle bones in messiah are uber easy to use and easy to modify. Like anything else in messiah, can also be use in conjunction with weights, expressions and so on, to achieve the desire effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 LW does have weight painting tools too (Vertex Paint) though I understand if Messiah's might be more robust Vertex Paint hasn't been updated in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted February 17, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Yeah that's right AbnRanger you tell 'em Cartoony rubbish Touche, Ghib...you can do some wicked stuff with Microsoft Paint, too. So...look out Photoshop!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I can't get anything from that link. It's a black screen. It's a Quicktime video of a photoreal boxer animation done in Messiah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member RichL Posted February 17, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/vids/gallery/taron_neckling_change.mov This is a good example of what can be done when you know your way around messiah. One of these days I will finally get some time to work my way through the tutorials on this. Every system is going to have its strong and weak points, messiah is no different. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Imhotep397 Posted February 17, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Yeah...it looks like the tools available to do muscles are no better than using Max bones... I'm not so sure about that. I'll have to check when I get my license, but it seems like the combination of muscle bones and the unique method of displacement map animation will get you to the same place without the heavy geometry and simulation of muscle systems. Their system of weight influencing vs. standard weight mapping already can help eliminate a lot of collapsing volume issues you get with standard weight mapping. http://www.usefulslug.com/files/Xerxestest5.mov (Doesn't look too toony to me and I haven't seen anyone do anything like it with CAT either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Greg Posted February 17, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Touche, Ghib...you can do some wicked stuff with Microsoft Paint, too. So...look out Photoshop!? Nice point Don! So what you're saying is that it's the artists skill, and not the software. +1 Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 LW does have weight painting tools too (Vertex Paint) though I understand if Messiah's might be more robust Vertex Paint hasn't been updated in years. You forgot the part where vertex paint sucks, and is less than inadequate for actually production work. lol LW weight painting tools = rig (or use skelegons, lol), bring back to modeler, OPEN vertex paint and hope it doesn't crash or freeze up with your mesh, use the awkward "posing" controls that don't function well and hope for the best Messiah weight painting tools = Rig, pose, paint weights, call it a day. That said and as mentioned before, you don't even need to go that far, most of the time. You can use meta effects for just about anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hey I know you hate LightWave and all but I was simply making the point that Vertex Paint does exist and as I said, the one in Messiah may well be better. I don't use Vertex Paint a whol elot, but when I have I have not had much trouble with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted February 17, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Well you say to try and buy it now but i am still not sure if i want to try as it's quite confusing. It could be rejected also and then i would have to go through the trouble of trying to get a refund back etc. Currently it does look like they are still selling it at that price but it says limited time only with no other date listed than February 14th 2011. Maybe the price is now always $10-40 because they do say about refunds, but then again that could be to keep current users happy. What they really need to do as soon as possible is make it more clear what the price is and if the deal is still going as i am sure there are other people wondering exactly the same thing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member RichL Posted February 17, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Well you say to try and buy it now but i am still not sure if i want to try as it's quite confusing. It could be rejected also and then i would have to go through the trouble of trying to get a refund back etc. Currently it does look like they are still selling it at that price but it says limited time only with no other date listed than February 14th 2011. Maybe the price is now always $10-40 because they do say about refunds, but then again that could be to keep current users happy. What they really need to do as soon as possible is make it more clear what the price is and if the deal is still going as i am sure there are other people wondering exactly the same thing right now. I think you are over thinking the situation. Purchase it if you would like to try it, the price should not be an object, I doubt very seriously the prices are going to remain what they are right now. If they change it back later today or tomorrow, will you than be sorry for missing it? If not, move on with life and be content you did not bite for the sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member richdj Posted February 17, 2011 Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Well you say to try and buy it now but i am still not sure if i want to try as it's quite confusing. It could be rejected also and then i would have to go through the trouble of trying to get a refund back etc. Currently it does look like they are still selling it at that price but it says limited time only with no other date listed than February 14th 2011. Maybe the price is now always $10-40 because they do say about refunds, but then again that could be to keep current users happy. What they really need to do as soon as possible is make it more clear what the price is and if the deal is still going as i am sure there are other people wondering exactly the same thing right now. PMG are not going to accept your money and then say, oops sorry our fault for selling it to you at the reduced amount, and you can't have it. They are currently busy working on a system to sort the orders out, and get everyone up and running with messiah. At least that's what they said in the 3D world interview. Hence, the web site hasn't been updated. I can't say for fact, but I'd bet that the price will not remain at the viral price. It'll go back to what it was (or similar), or back to the full price. The refunds offered, where PMG being decent people. They aren't obliged to refund people. You pay what the price is, when you buy it. As richL said "If they change it back later today or tomorrow, will you than be sorry for missing it?" Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member ghib Posted February 17, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Touche, Ghib...you can do some wicked stuff with Microsoft Paint, too. So...look out Photoshop!? Nice one.. good point, so what you're trying to say is; a good artist should be able to do more than cartoony rigs in Messiah p.s. amazing vid, thanks for the share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted February 17, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Nice one.. good point, so what you're trying to say is; a good artist should be able to do more than cartoony rigs in Messiah p.s. amazing vid, thanks for the share. I think you get the point. Just because you can use a good old-fashioned screw driver, it doesn't negate the appeal of the CORDLESS Power Drill. Some situations the power tool is overkill, but in most, it's the most efficient tool for the job. Perhaps you took my words to the extreme. On Cartoony type characters (that actually covers a LOT of territory..."Dispicable Me" and many other large budget Animated films would fall into that category...thin limbs and very simplified joints on characters to fit the story and help reduce the rigging animation workload), I would have no concerns using Messiah, but on hero characters or animals where muscles can help, I believe I have better solutions in Max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member ghib Posted February 17, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I think I took your post with the amount of salt that was required to get the point thanks. I was just replying with my tongue placed firmly in my cheek. We can hardly use your exaggerated power drill analogy to show the differences between Max & Messiah's methods regardless our preferences. You may be more comfortable with your solution in max; and that's fine, I was merely amused by your knee-jerk response. You also used a competent artist using MS paint well to illustrate your point but again it was an exaggeration, which really wasn't helpful. If it makes you feel like you've won some argument then so be it.. I'm sure this isn't the end of this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted February 17, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I think I took your post with the amount of salt that was required to get the point thanks. I was just replying with my tongue placed firmly in my cheek. We can hardly use your exaggerated power drill analogy to show the differences between Max & Messiah's methods regardless our preferences. You may be more comfortable with your solution in max; and that's fine, I was merely amused by your knee-jerk response. You also used a competent artist using MS paint well to illustrate your point but again it was an exaggeration, which really wasn't helpful. If it makes you feel like you've won some argument then so be it.. I'm sure this isn't the end of this discussion. You suggested that because one artist was able to do a nice job, apparently, that it was just as capable without a muscle system. So, the screw driver analogy fits. Muscle systems (with spring/jiggle dynamics built in) have their place. That's not a knee jerk reaction. It's a simple assessment of the tools available, for my own use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member ghib Posted February 17, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 A better analogy would have been I prefer 'brand X' power drill whereas others prefer 'brand Y' ok I can see I'm in danger of being sucked into the AbnRanger Vortex; so on that note, I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted February 18, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 A better analogy would have been I prefer 'brand X' power drill whereas others prefer 'brand Y' ok I can see I'm in danger of being sucked into the AbnRanger Vortex; so on that note, I'm out. Awww...shucks. You ain't got to take your marbles and run home, Ghibby. I got in on the deal too, so it's all good here. As soon as they release the licenses, I'll check and see if the muscle bones can properly handle knee jerk deformations and get back to you on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.