Contributor BeatKitano Posted March 8, 2011 Contributor Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 You should have shown me this form the beginning, now I agree, I didn't pay much attention to itnersection topology, you're right. But anyway I can't help but think that this is really a toy for lazy people. It takes 4 minutes to make a super basic basemesh in any 3dpackage and deform it roughly in zbrush.I'm not even sure the lazyest don't go for a deformed sphere and remeshing along the path... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member polyxo Posted March 8, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 @polyxo LOL why not the whole blender project? No, just the best of them of course "I could watch Zsketching for hours" Don't LOL, zsketching produces terrible topology, close to 'remesh'. In fact, remesh is much better as you can work similar to voxels (somehow... LOL again) It still looks cool and is a very fast way to create shapes. I know that you are a Topology-Fanatic Michalis - I am not at ALL, at least in most cases. Often I even export the raw triangular Surface-Mesh - it's well suitable for Prototyping. If anything I do with a program like 3DCoat or Zbrush turns out good enough to get a real project I would reverse-engineer (= retopo) it in Nurbs anyway. A good mesh is useful for Rendering and Animating only - but one in most cases should not try making physical products of them. There's Industries which have no use even for the worlds cleanest meshes... We are all doing very different stuff with 3D-Programs one shouldn't forget about that. I'd therefor love to see anything which gives more "direct-creation"-power to the Voxel-Curve-Tool and I would also not mind at all if it looked as fantastic and worked as smoothly as in Zbrush. For me Voxels are the only good reason to use 3DCoat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted March 8, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 BeatKitano, polyxo, I mostly agree. Still, b-spheres tool is interesting. I prefer to edit a sphere mesh than constructing or retopo fingers-hands from scratch. Having to set up a pose of a hand after. About 'topology' being good for animation only meshes, I don't agree. A different kind of topology is needed for sculpting, this is a 10 min work in 3dcoat. I usually retopo 2-3 times when working in zbrush. My advise, learn how to use autopo, how to perform it in 5-10 mins. Learn the tricks of guides, is not so hard. A simple tutorial of Psmith explains most of these tricks. I spent some time learning and testing, now I feel free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member polyxo Posted March 8, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 BeatKitano, polyxo, I mostly agree. Still, b-spheres tool is interesting. I prefer to edit a sphere mesh than constructing or retopo fingers-hands from scratch. Having to set up a pose of a hand after. About 'topology' being good for animation only meshes, I don't agree. A different kind of topology is needed for sculpting, this is a 10 min work in 3dcoat. I usually retopo 2-3 times when working in zbrush. My advise, learn how to use autopo, how to perform it in 5-10 mins. Learn the tricks of guides, is not so hard. A simple tutorial of Psmith explains most of these tricks. I spent some time learning and testing, now I feel free. Michalis, I believe what I said was not understandable for you... My point is: Not every user of 3DCoat needs clean, edge looped meshes as output. Voxel-Volume-Creation even with "dirtiest" underlying triangulated mesh can be used for 3D-Printing. An hand-retopoed all Quads mesh made by you may be brilliantly suitable to create images, to use Displacement effectively and to Animate effectively. But one can not use such a mesh - any kind of mesh for higher levels of Product-Development - here only Nurbs rule and everything has to get transfered to this Geometry type. No car, no Telephone, not the Mouse and the Tablet on your Table has ever been made from a Mesh. One can however very nicely use Meshes and Voxels for conceptual Design (the first stages). For such kinds of work (at least if it stays unpainted) Polyflow, Density, Quads or Triangles, equal spacing, Poles and and all the things which count a lot if one wants to transfer high-polycount-Detail losslessly to LowRes are mostly or even completely irrelevant. The only important factor in such contexts is Usability and Control - if one only needs Geometry for a quick 3D-Print the curve-tool could output pentagons or whatever sort of polygon. It simply doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted March 8, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 I understand polyxo, BTW I even posted this, some months ago (http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6485&view=findpost&p=50260) This works for static models but its not a mesh that you can more sculpt-subvide. Lot of ugly artifacts. When subdividing and sculpting topology should flow the same way as the sculpting tool does. On regular quads as possible. This is the topology I'm talking about. A drapery study is a nice example. Different ways to skin a cat, or (in this case) to skin different cats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted March 10, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Do retopo first, sculpt details after. This is my opinion. To sculpt first and have to build my cage after is not what I want. This method doesn't go anywhere. For low quality game figures only, sorry. I think low quality game figures are for low quality and low budget games. Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3XeCHywNYM Nothing low quality about it . Maybe coming soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted March 10, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Great video, technically speaking, great effects, a movie. Lot of boring violence but its my opinion only. So where is a game scene? This is the video not the game engine. Low quality figures in the end. Not necessarily of bad taste, just low resolution. BTW my last aphrodite+temple scene is baked now in blender and can be animated in real time. Almost (in 2000 px). Not for a game of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted March 10, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Great video, technically speaking, great effects, a movie. Lot of boring violence but its my opinion only. So where is a game scene? This is the video not the game engine. Low quality figures in the end. Not necessarily of bad taste, just low resolution. BTW my last aphrodite+temple scene is baked now in blender and can be animated in real time. Almost (in 2000 px). Not for a game of course. I think its not a prerendered cutscene. Its actual realtime graphics for the next gen. http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/features/unreal-engine-3-gdc-2011-tech-video-shows-off-pretty-graphics/ http://news.bigdownload.com/2011/03/04/unreal-engine-3-gdc-2011-tech-demo-only-runs-well-on-super-fast/ Maybe 2-3 years 3dcoat really needs to adapt the traditional poly workflow. They're not going away. I think we will see much more talented people in the game industry using sculpting appz trying to squeeze every detail. Low quality game figures as you said will be a thing of the past....hopefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psmith Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 3D-Coat has never had any pretense of being an industrial 3D CAD application - nor do I think this will ever become likely. It is a 3D asset creation tool primarily aimed at the entertainment industry. One of its primary goals is to make the creation of these assets as painless as possible and to offer methods of creating them more quickly, with fewer steps. From this point of view, the new "Bmesh" techniques make very good sense. Using them actually "kills 2 birds with one stone". It serves as a very quick way to rough out primary shape and detail, faster than the competition, with greater ease, and the resulting base mesh has quite reasonable topology for organic creations - leaving only the steps of medium level voxel detailing, snapping of these modifications to the original base mesh - and texturing. I can't think of a more fluid or faster way of working, whether for creation of game based assets or film. Nicholas Bishop is on the right track, for sure. Greg Smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted March 10, 2011 Applink Developer Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Back to this b-spheres (or b-mesh ) paper. Here the blender version already. Watch how advanced over zspheres this method is. Amazing how fast blender develop is. I didn't expect to see something like this but I'm excited to test this when it goes to trunk. What I have heard, Nicholas Bishop dosen't need donations because he has fulltime job. He is coding amazing stuff like just for fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member polyxo Posted March 10, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 3D-Coat has never had any pretense of being an industrial 3D CAD application - nor do I think this will ever become likely. It is a 3D asset creation tool primarily aimed at the entertainment industry. One of its primary goals is to make the creation of these assets as painless as possible and to offer methods of creating them more quickly, with fewer steps. Hi Greg, I guess these words go in my direction. Well - first off I was saying: Everything what makes the Curve-Tool more powerful would imo be great. I was already glad if something came out like current Zspheres, if Bmesh even creates better Topo - cool. Second: Andrew Shpagin was always very open to extend 3DCoat towards applications other than Digital Content-Creation. Especially its Voxel-Toolset is extremely interesting for applications like Jewelery, Product-Design, Scan-Mesh-Postprocessing to mention just a few. At some point (I believe before you even started engaging for 3DCoat)even a "Technical Edition" of 3DCoat has been considered. While of course the mayority of people posting here clearly have a DCC-Background, I think looking for what 3DC can do for users with more technical interests was a very clever Move. While I love Zbrush it has a pretty closed and narrow focus, that's even more true for Mudbox. Would it be clever to move on with the sole focus to match the Profile of the two large packages who already shared the greatest part of the cake? Or might it be interesting to also "harvest" all the people who have for years already had an interest in Sensable/Claytools but weren't willing to spend huge amounts of money on a program which cost a true fortune and develops at Snale-pace in comparison? I'd expect quite a few new customers alone when the Rhino-Applink get published... Just do a Forum-Search with keywords like "Nurbs" or "Sensable" or "Haptic Device" and you'll see how large the interest actually is. These Customers or potential Customers don' post much here - I assume as figurative work simply isn't their main interest. That doesnt mean they are not "there". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psmith Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Polyxo: I agree - the interest is definitely there - (even for me, I make clocks with the help of CNC) - but we just don't have the dedicated staff to go in so many different directions. I'd love to see that particular situation change - but revenues have to dictate moving in that direction. They aren't indicating we should move in that direction, right now, however. Greg Smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted March 16, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Go and download new blender build (with skin modifier) as fast as possible.!!!! (graphicall.org) Here are some simple instructions because its somehow confusing 1. Select an Object 2. in Object Mode go to the Object Data Panel, scroll down and press the + Button under Skin Layer 3. Go to the Modifiers Panel and add the Skin Modifier 4. In the Skin Modifier activate the Use Modifier while in the edit mode Button 5. Switch to Edit Mode and have fun Well, this isn't zsphere at all. This is SUPER!!!! Just have fun with this tool, use any simple mesh with this, do some base editing if you like, after modifier. You have the perfect skin for more sculpting with excellent topology. Is this the end of retopo? is this the end of some more favorite tools? Think about it. A tremendous power on this great tool. This test in 2 minutes, PPP and UVs included. Another test in five minutes, this internally in blender, b-mesh, edit topo, sculpting, UVs and paint, render. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taros Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Back to this b-spheres (or b-mesh ) paper. Here the blender version already. Watch how advanced over zspheres this method is. Would be perfect for 3D Coats surface and voxel mode. Nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted April 1, 2011 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Would be perfect for 3D Coats surface and voxel mode. Nice. ?? Taros, you know that you can add loops and geometry as you're sculpting in blender multi-res mode? The message is clear for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taros Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 ?? Taros, you know that you can add loops and geometry as you're sculpting in blender multi-res mode? The message is clear for me. No, I did't know that. I am not very familiar with blender. My "home software" is softimage. But I like the blender development and one day, when I have enough time... I will take a closer look into blender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 soooorry im digging this old post but... is there any rumor about this implementation in 3DC ? ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted August 25, 2012 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 It is in all recent official blender builds 2.63. Download one from graphicall.org (trunk) You'll find it under modifiers. It is called skin. Add a subsurf modifier to have smooth skin. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 sorry i forgot to add in 3DC ty anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted August 25, 2012 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 To do what in 3dcoat? We have curves tool. Isn't it enough? One for sure, the blender skin modifier is far superior to the ZBrush zspheres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Is curves tool far superior to the skin modifier or zspheres ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member pixo Posted August 26, 2012 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 It would be really nice to have b-mesh to convert it in voxel or surface. I usually have problems with curves,especially in between arm>body ,leg>body intersection by the way it look a little bit faster and handy to manipulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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