3DC V3.2 - The Future

[AbnRanger]

I honestly do not think the Voxel learning curve is in any way steep at all. Far from it...

As far as I am concerned, you can just jump in and start sculpting without any worries, constraints or considerations. It is as easy and natural for me as using a ball of clay.

You can also create a bunch of parts (body parts, props, etc) which you can add to any sculpture as a primitive / merge object which greatly speeds up model creation. In terms of speed and artistic freedom, it is awesome!

Retopo is easy and way quicker than creating a mid-poly model from scratch. UV's are also pretty easy in 3D Coat (with ptex considerably so).

You can bake the high poly texture to the low poly model with local ao and spend a bit of time detailing and painting colour and spec before exporting the whole kit and kaboodle. shimples

The voxel and sculpt rooms could do with being merged / mirrored and the surface tools could do with a bit of optimization. The ability to bake lightmaps would be good and a bit more speed wouldn't go amiss but I am using xp 32 non cuda so upgrading my laptop would fix that. (although I do get 100 fps + quite regularly on my old Dell xps m1710)

IMHO 3D Coat is a fantastic, extremely useful and relevant tool and voxel's are the future so stop whining! If you love mb & zb so much, buy em and go away.

I don't mean to come across as a fanboy but It almost seems like some people on here are making 3D Coat out to be a second rate lame useless donkey and it is so, so far from that.

A lot of work has gone into 3D Coat and it is updated more frequently than some people update their under crackers. It may not be perfect but I am confident it will be soon.

Peace to all!

Well, first of all...you're mistaken to presume you're in any position to dictate to other adults what they are to think or say. If someone sees an issue they feel is important enough to speak up about, just who are you to label them "whiners?"

Now...personally I've stated over and over again that Voxels are great for what they do...but it also adds more work when you're importing a model. The Sculpt Room has been the one neglected area of 3DC, and I would like to see the Surface Tools mirrored over, so that anyone who simply wants to sculpt with geometry can do so with similar capability as what is available in the Voxel Room. The issue of comparing the workflow to that in MB and ZB is a VERY relevant one, and we don't need your permission to discuss the matter.

[Tony Nemo]

I honestly do not think the Voxel learning curve is in any way steep at all. Far from it...

As far as I am concerned, you can just jump in and start sculpting without any worries, constraints or considerations. It is as easy and natural for me as using a ball of clay.

You can also create a bunch of parts (body parts, props, etc) which you can add to any sculpture as a primitive / merge object which greatly speeds up model creation. In terms of speed and artistic freedom, it is awesome!

Retopo is easy and way quicker than creating a mid-poly model from scratch. UV's are also pretty easy in 3D Coat (with ptex considerably so).

You can bake the high poly texture to the low poly model with local ao and spend a bit of time detailing and painting colour and spec before exporting the whole kit and kaboodle. shimples

The voxel and sculpt rooms could do with being merged / mirrored and the surface tools could do with a bit of optimization. The ability to bake lightmaps would be good and a bit more speed wouldn't go amiss but I am using xp 32 non cuda so upgrading my laptop would fix that. (although I do get 100 fps + quite regularly on my old Dell xps m1710)

IMHO 3D Coat is a fantastic, extremely useful and relevant tool and voxel's are the future so stop whining! If you love mb & zb so much, buy em and go away.

I don't mean to come across as a fanboy but It almost seems like some people on here are making 3D Coat out to be a second rate lame useless donkey and it is so, so far from that.

A lot of work has gone into 3D Coat and it is updated more frequently than some people update their under crackers. It may not be perfect but I am confident it will be soon.

Peace to all!

+1

[Marc Wakefield]

Well, first of all...you're mistaken to presume you're in any position to dictate to other adults what they are to think or say. If someone sees an issue they feel is important enough to speak up about, just who are you to label them "whiners?"

Now...personally I've stated over and over again that Voxels are great for what they do...but it also adds more work when you're importing a model. The Sculpt Room has been the one neglected area of 3DC, and I would like to see the Surface Tools mirrored over, so that anyone who simply wants to sculpt with geometry can do so with similar capability as what is available in the Voxel Room. The issue of comparing the workflow to that in MB and ZB is a VERY relevant one, and we don't need your permission to discuss the matter.

Well first of all.... no need to get angry about it buddy. The stop whining was actually in reference to good old Arnie Schwarzenegger and was meant to be taken tongue in cheek. I guess you couldn't hear my bad attempt at an Austrian accent. I am sorry I offended you or anyone else for that matter.

Please accept my apologies everyone, I am not trying to tell anyone what to think or do.

It just seemed to be coming across like people where being overly negative about the workflow of one of my favorite programs when it is actually still rather good. Maybe I misunderstood where others were coming from.

I completely back up what you are saying about the sculpt room and I mentioned it in my post.

I also don't need permission to say whats on my mind no matter how random I may put it across and I don't expect to be scolded like a naughty school boy for expressing my opinion.

Now lets all calm down...

[The Candy-floss Kid]

Marc Wakefield:

I honestly do not think the Voxel learning curve is in any way steep at all. Far from it...

Yes I'd agree with much of what Marc says. I find I can create good voxel sculpts extremely quickly as well as creating forms that I would not have considered using other methods. By not making the initial voxel sculpts too advanced/fussy /overly detailed and testing whether an idea is going to work is very fast in 3DC. Stopping with the basic forms and flow laid down - retopo and then perfecting some of the polygon detailing I find fast -very.

Detailing in from sketches takes a good while, doing accurate drawings for detailing out takes a good while and never quite shows you whether a face or character works in 3d until One is almost complete.

I'm liking voxel sculpting very much and compared to the complexities and learning curves of many applications that require manuals and help books thicker than One's thigh I think it's absolutely lovely, tickety-boo and a much welcomed step forward :-)

Emotionally I find a strong connection with the voxel approach it seems more physically tangible and less intellectually and emotionally abstracted than some of the other methods of creating initial sculpts. That has to be a good thing. Doesn't it? :-)

My five year old son can sit on my knee and create cute images using 3DC and voxels. It makes immediate sense to him. There's something about that fact that warms me very much to 3DC and I see it as a great strength of the application.

As well as using 3DC with other apps I very much want to create whole pieces of still art using voxels alone. I'm sure many other artists will too. ZBrush has perfected itself increasingly as a pipeline tool and increasingly fallen down as a complete environment for image creation. Anyone working on a Macintosh can testify to it's consistent failures and crashes in this area other than using it for it's core pipeline facilities to other apps.

For me voxels number 1 - forge forward -sally-forth and tallyho. Snapping issues 2.Whatever the other guy said no.3. But as everyone makes such convincing arguments for their own wish lists who am I to say?!! I see my dialog more as the ramblings of a gin soaked Aunt at a family wedding.

Thank you all for a great thread with so many interesting viewpoints and fascinating links.

Aside: can somebody tell me what ptex is and why it's such a good thing? Seriously I am cluesless on this topic.

[AbnRanger]

Well first of all.... no need to get angry about it buddy. The stop whining was actually in reference to good old Arnie Schwarzenegger and was meant to be taken tongue in cheek. I guess you couldn't hear my bad attempt at an Austrian accent. I am sorry I offended you or anyone else for that matter.

Please accept my apologies everyone, I am not trying to tell anyone what to think or do.

It just seemed to be coming across like people where being overly negative about the workflow of one of my favorite programs when it is actually still rather good. Maybe I misunderstood where others were coming from.

I completely back up what you are saying about the sculpt room and I mentioned it in my post.

I also don't need permission to say whats on my mind no matter how random I may put it across and I don't expect to be scolded like a naughty school boy for expressing my opinion.

Now lets all calm down...

I haven't taken any issue with any of your opinion's; just with the comment that anyone who doesn't happen to share those opinions are somehow "whining." Because Andrew has done such a good job with the surface (polygonal) tools recently, it has me wanting to see similar tools in the Sculpt Room, as it would help immensely, in my opinion, with those who want to follow a more traditional workflow. This is a discussion about 3DC's future, and that is one of the things I'd like most in the near future

[Marc Wakefield]

I haven't taken any issue with any of your opinion's; just with the comment that anyone who doesn't happen to share those opinions are somehow "whining." Because Andrew has done such a good job with the surface (polygonal) tools recently, it has me wanting to see similar tools in the Sculpt Room, as it would help immensely, in my opinion, with those who want to follow a more traditional workflow. This is a discussion about 3DC's future, and that is one of the things I'd like most in the near future

Cool, I honestly meant no harm.

You are right about the surface tools though, they are great.

If you have a really high resolution sculpt, the surface tools are the only way to effectively smooth out any imperfections and work at a good speed.

The downside is that you have to switch back to voxel mode pretty often. If you get carried away, forget yourself and do a lot of work in surface mode, you can have a bit of a looong wait for it to convert back....

If this could be sorted out, it would be awesome! The ability to subdivide/increase res in certain areas of a voxel sculpt and not the whole thing (ptex style) is also on my wish list.

By the way, has anyone ever told you that you look a bit like Peter Facinelli, the actor who plays Carlisle Cullen in Twilight?

[Marc Wakefield]

Aside: can somebody tell me what ptex is and why it's such a good thing? Seriously I am cluesless on this topic.

Ptex (Link to Andrew's post on it) automatically creates a UV map out of tiny little squares with perfectly blended edges (so no seams) with no input from the user.

This means you can sculpt then convert to ptex and paint with ease. You can miss out retopo completely if you don't need to animate the mesh at some point.

You can also increase resolution on certain areas by selecting individual tiles, areas for fine details like eyebrows, eyes, detail on clothing such as buttons, seams, etc.

It is a thing of absolute beauty.

Can't bake local Ambient Occlusion from a sculpt in Ptex yet though....

That is definitely on the wish list!

[AbnRanger]

Cool, I honestly meant no harm.

You are right about the surface tools though, they are great.

If you have a really high resolution sculpt, the surface tools are the only way to effectively smooth out any imperfections and work at a good speed.

The downside is that you have to switch back to voxel mode pretty often. If you get carried away, forget yourself and do a lot of work in surface mode, you can have a bit of a looong wait for it to convert back....

If this could be sorted out, it would be awesome! The ability to subdivide/increase res in certain areas of a voxel sculpt and not the whole thing (ptex style) is also on my wish list.

By the way, has anyone ever told you that you look a bit like Peter Facinelli, the actor who plays Carlisle Cullen in Twilight?

I too like the freedom Voxels give an artist, and that may soon turn out to become a more widely adopted workflow...starting out in Voxels, using the FFD primitives. But what I think will make 3DC stand out in the industry eventually is having a full range of sculpting/detailing options...and not being stuck to a linear workflow like MB and ZB.

As for looking like the guy in Moonlight....nah, he's too boney...plus I shower everyday (hear he has real hygiene issues)

[The Candy-floss Kid]

Thanks Marc for that info and the link.

Cheers

[Marc Wakefield]

I too like the freedom Voxels give an artist, and that may soon turn out to become a more widely adopted workflow...starting out in Voxels, using the FFD primitives. But what I think will make 3DC stand out in the industry eventually is having a full range of sculpting/detailing options...and not being stuck to a linear workflow like MB and ZB.

As for looking like the guy in Moonlight....nah, he's too boney...plus I shower everyday (hear he has real hygiene issues)

Ha Ha, really?

I can't wait to tell my fiancee about that.

She won't think he's so hot when she finds out he is a stinker.

[Javis]

Ha Ha, really?

I can't wait to tell my fiancee about that.

She won't think he's so hot when she finds out he is a stinker.

Ach seriously? I like that show, assuming we're talking about the same one.

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/moonlight/

Anyway, that is kind of funny, lol.

[Javis]

I've no offense with what Don is saying at all. I happen to agree with most of his points.

But what I do absolutely disagree with are the constant posts like Amber's here. Allow me to quote you Amber.

Voxels have already steep learing curve

Perhaps for you, but most people I taught or have seen with no prior experience in 3D pick up a stylus in 3DC and start sculpting almost right away once you tell them the hotkeys. I don't think it's steep at all.

until it's possible to seamlessly import/export low-poly uvmapped objects and bake dis maps I'm affraid usage of voxels is quite limited for most people so why bother learning it.

You can and 3DC DOES allow for this. At the moment there is a minor bug which I reported to Andrew where the maps are not baking correctly to the mesh from voxels. Once this bug is fixed (next build) I will record a video, and you can stop saying this. Yeah?

I also agree with what you said 3DC needs some speed improvements brushes and voxels are sometimes way too slow.

I'd like to see new features in retopology and subdivision support there.

Have you tried using the surface tools? I agree they could use speed improvements on the whole, but the surface sculpting tools are damn fast. Maybe you don't have a CUDA enabled card?

... and better manual written in proper English.It's ordeal to read it like it's now, feels like technical book written in akward English.

Did you even bother reading or checking out the most recent version? Klaus Nordby and myself worked day and night on it, and Klaus personally went through and correct as much of the grammar and spelling issues as humanly possible. Making a blanket statement like that is only going to get you a response like this one. So please, save us all the trouble and instead of making a comment such as this, take the time for due diligence please. Next time, I'll unleash Klaus upon you, and Klaus will not take kindly to this.

[AbnRanger]

Ach seriously? I like that show, assuming we're talking about the same one.

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/moonlight/

Anyway, that is kind of funny, lol.

Oops...I got the wrong guy, it seems. I automatically assumed he was talking about the lead actor in the Twighlight series. I don't keep up with it, but I did watch the last movie (the one I wanted to watch had already started 30 min before I got to the cinema), and saw a clip or two that talked about co-workers of the star complaining about the funk (to which he admitted in a later interview that he was a slob).

This is the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXU55GR7JXk

[AbnRanger]

If you have a pretty beefy system, you wouldn't find Voxel Sculpting...especially the Surface tools...slow. Now, there is still the issue of long wait times with Merging and converting from surface mode to voxels, among other heavy calculation operations, but those will hopefully continue to be addressed in future builds. The Surface tools have gotten so fast, and the fact that they are actually polygons that are being pushed around, that has me wanting to see the same engine under the hood in the Sculpt Room...so an imported model can be jumped on straight away...no merging, just mad sculpting goodness.

[Javis]

Actually you can import a mesh as voxels, and the mesh to bake the future sculpted details to, and then import relatively easily. There is one bug prohibiting me from recording a video but, once it's fixed (Next build) I will upload it.

On the note of poly sculpting, I've mentioned to Andrew about the improvement of the tools and also the bringing of the surface sculpting tools to the poly sculpting tab. He says it is possible. So, the more voices heard on this the better and more likely it will happen sooner... But not until after ptex is finished.

[AbnRanger]

Actually you can import a mesh as voxels, and the mesh to bake the future sculpted details to, and then import relatively easily. There is one bug prohibiting me from recording a video but, once it's fixed (Next build) I will upload it.

On the note of poly sculpting, I've mentioned to Andrew about the improvement of the tools and also the bringing of the surface sculpting tools to the poly sculpting tab. He says it is possible. So, the more voices heard on this the better and more likely it will happen sooner... But not until after ptex is finished.

I should've clarified what I meant...that you can jump right into sculpting without the need to merge the model into voxels and HAVE to retopologize thereafter. If Andrew is able to get Ptex really nailed down AND have roughly the same level of tools in the Sculpt Room as the Surface tools, he'll have one heck of a show to put on at Siggraph this year!

[Javis]

Yeah that is what I'm hoping for. I really want the poly sculpting tools to get some attention soon.

To clarify a bit on my end as well...

You can take a mesh into 3DC by merging, but you don't need to retopologize it at all. That's what I'm saying. YOu can skip that step, as long as your mesh has a UV map. If it doesn't, you can then UV map it right before you bake the details.

With ptex of course this wont ever be an issue.

[Marc Wakefield]

Bring on the sculpting goodness! I really can't wait for ptex to be 100% so that Andrew can get started on the poly sculpt room! (if this is his next plan anyway)

One of the 'problems' with 3d coat is that we get it so damn good!

We get fantastic new features so often that it leaves you wanting more.

you can get really excited about a coming update, which has you checking the forums daily in anticipation. Then you get the new feature, you love it and then Andrew goes and does something else fantastic, which you also love and then he goes and does something else fantastic which you find amazing and so on and so forth.....

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

I can't imagine where 3D Coat will be in five years time, but I can wait to find out!

[ifxs]

+1 for sculpting tools to be on par with the voxel surface tools, AFTER MULTIRES for voxels mode is added, and MOST IMPORTANTLY AFTER Andrew works on MULTITHREADING "merging" and "switching between volume and surface mode" for voxels.

I mean no offense to anyone who insists that the priority of 3DC is the sculpting room, IF i need to do so, I can use other apps better suited for that side of my(non-voxel) sculpting work until 3DC adds it(of which hope Andrew does eventually). What I cant do in other apps is continue my work on a voxel object as I can in 3DC; what I was under the impression the main focus of 3DC was(currently). Multires and multithreading of the various SNAILS-PACE aspects of voxels(merging, etc) will make 3DC the tool I thought it was intended to be.

I(and many others) really need merging and switching between surface/volume to be sped up using all available processors/cores in as many cases as is applicable. (IMO)Its absurd watching 1 cpu crunch for minutes on end, sometimes hours, just to continue sculpting or working on a merged object. Anyone working with 25million+ objects in voxel likely knows what I'm talking about. Additions to the toolset, like the sculpt room, are very welcome; however aspects of 3DC that interrupt/pause or stop a workflow for long periods of time remind me of using 3D apps from a decade ago. My productivity is hindered when I constantly have to walk away from my sculpt(for periods of time) just to have the object switch from volume to surface mode. If I needed a coffee break from sculpting I'd set up some VERY high-ray-count renders, I dont expect my sculpting toolset to make me wait for periods of time whenever I want to switch to a different tool-mode(or merge in an object).

Seems like there is a big call to have 3DC mimic the toolsets of ZB and MB, which would be wonderful, however I would like the voxels to get some needed attention to details that are less flashy, but should have been fixed LONG AGO.(IMO)

[splodge]

+1 for sculpting tools to be on par with the voxel surface tools, AFTER MULTIRES for voxels mode is added, and MOST IMPORTANTLY AFTER Andrew works on MULTITHREADING "merging" and "switching between volume and surface mode" for voxels.

I mean no offense to anyone who insists that the priority of 3DC is the sculpting room, IF i need to do so, I can use other apps better suited for that side of my(non-voxel) sculpting work until 3DC adds it(of which hope Andrew does eventually). What I cant do in other apps is continue my work on a voxel object as I can in 3DC; what I was under the impression the main focus of 3DC was(currently). Multires and multithreading of the various SNAILS-PACE aspects of voxels(merging, etc) will make 3DC the tool I thought it was intended to be.

I(and many others) really need merging and switching between surface/volume to be sped up using all available processors/cores in as many cases as is applicable. (IMO)Its absurd watching 1 cpu crunch for minutes on end, sometimes hours, just to continue sculpting or working on a merged object. Anyone working with 25million+ objects in voxel likely knows what I'm talking about. Additions to the toolset, like the sculpt room, are very welcome; however aspects of 3DC that interrupt/pause or stop a workflow for long periods of time remind me of using 3D apps from a decade ago. My productivity is hindered when I constantly have to walk away from my sculpt(for periods of time) just to have the object switch from volume to surface mode. If I needed a coffee break from sculpting I'd set up some VERY high-ray-count renders, I dont expect my sculpting toolset to make me wait for periods of time whenever I want to switch to a different tool-mode(or merge in an object).

Seems like there is a big call to have 3DC mimic the toolsets of ZB and MB, which would be wonderful, however I would like the voxels to get some needed attention to details that are less flashy, but should have been fixed LONG AGO.(IMO)

Do you switch between voxel and surface mode often?. I don't really have an issue with switching modes myself, but then I rarely switch. I create my model in voxel mode and do the final detailing in surface mode. I never need to go back to voxel mode again.

[ifxs]

Do you switch between voxel and surface mode often?. I don't really have an issue with switching modes myself, but then I rarely switch. I create my model in voxel mode and do the final detailing in surface mode. I never need to go back to voxel mode again.

First off, I just want to say 3DC rocks! It has become my favorite 3D sculpting app in a very short time. Thus I am writing the following due to my sincere enjoyment and appreciation for Andrew's fine work on 3DC, and if this issue was fixed, I'd be able to use 3DC on more time-sensitive projects for which I would like to use 3DC::::

I do often switch between volume and surface mode in voxels, as they both serve specific purposes for many projects I'm working on, ESPECIALLY when working with THIN parts of a sculpt.

try switching modes on a voxsculpt with over 25million polys(though I need more like 35+ mil) and watch the time it can take just to switch between modes USING ONLY 1 CORE/PROCESSOR, that is just not efficient IMO, and wastes HOURS of my time waiting for the progress bar to complete, this is not a smooth workflow compared to ZB/MB/Blender at all IMO.

20+million for an entire character on 1 vox layer is the smallest level at which I can even BEGIN to sculpt in the finer details for my character work, this goes for other sculpting apps too ZB/MC/Blender/ETC.

At TRI counts WELL BELOW 10 million, when I use the (awesome!) Pose tool, and then hit enter, I have to sit there watching just 1 core work for almost a minute just to then be able to continue my workflow. UGH, it all of my cores were working on this process it would be done MUCH faster. I have to take a lunch break when using the pose tool on a 25+million tri voxel sculpt :-(

If the snapping in the retopo room worked with fewer glitches(especially with quadrangulated meshes), then I'd consider doing some of the work I need to do with per-pixel painting. But that just takes me out of the freedom of being in the Voxel room, where I want to me, the reason I try to use 3DC on as many projects as I can justify it(vox room is the only reason I bought 3DC, it rocks!!).

Any ZB/MB/Blender user knows just how high the poly counts can go in those apps, and those high poly counts are there for a good reason if you've ever needed them. TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, 3DC is drawing the voxel mesh in polys, not volumetric voxels, just hold down the w-key to see what I mean if you haven't been accustomed to seeing the polys that represent your voxel sculpts. I'm sure Andrew's specific method differs from the likes of claytools and others, however the speed issue and lack of proper multithreading for integral processes in my vox workflow are reminiscent of working in 3D apps over a decade old, "push the button, walk away from the cpu, then come back and continue working :-(". I shouldn't have to watch 1 cpu core out of my 8 cores crunch for minutes or more just to switch between the 2 toolsets(volume/surface) in voxel mode.

I've seen some fine work in 3DC and I know its not being done on 5million poly voxel sculpts, even some of the other people I know in person who work in 3DC can push it WAY PAST 20 million to achieve a detailed voxel sculpt. Anyone that does push 3DC past 20-million + is likely to run into "the single CPU CORE just sitting there all alone" working on what all the rest of the cores should be working on in my opinion of course.

Hands down 3DC has fast become my FAVORITE 3d sculpting toolset to use! But this 1 issue is a show-stopper for me when trying to speedily/productively/fluidly work on a vox sculpt from start to finish. I hope proper multithreading gets addressed ASAP.