Serial number and hardware locking

[Andrew Shpagin]

What do you think about hardware - locked keys?

In general I think often about non hardware locked keys. Piracy is a real problem for us, I think that 3DC is used legally only in 50% (if not less). It really slows advertising, and even development because we have money to grow, but not enough to hire other programmers or participate in CG conferences.

So I think that hardware protection is not good. It does not helps against pirates. Someone who usually purchaces software, will purcace 3DC if he uses it, but someone who never purchaces it will not buy it but will try to find a crack.

So what do you think about simple keys, not hardware locked? I make updates frequently, I can simply disable keys that will be exposed publically. Also, please don't expect that I will throw off hardware keys immediately. I need some time to decide what should I do.

[yukon_28]

Andrew, i really want to warn from very usual mistake of many developers. It is really way to nowhere, blind alley, i mean trying to fight piracy. Today there is many developers that know and agree with it, many of them learned it in a hard way.

When developer starts to put his energy and powers in protection algoritms, the results is hurt of legal users, lose of money and slowed down dewelopment.

Piracy is a bad thing, there is no excuse for it, but unfortunately you cant beat it. Not only you, but multi-billion dollar sw giants like Microsoft and Apple cant beat it.

When someone, random sw developer trying to fight with pirates, what happens is that hi is puting his powers not in software itself but in protection development instead, its slows down updates of sw, hi is loosing money because noone going to buy software for better protection, users looking at core new feature list, not at protection system changes. Plus, it is usaly hurts legal users, because of sophisticated registration schemes and all re-registration and re-installation issues and many other things that make user's life harder. But, the most sad thing in it is that all this problems affects ONLY legetimate users, all users of cracked versions usualy does not have such a problems.

And it leads to paradoxical situations some time, i remember one incident on forums of PDA software company called Resco (Resco Picture Viewer, Resco File Manager, etc.), they did frequent updates, but firstly changed serial numbers only on major version change, like from v5.xx to v6.xx. But suddenly they decided to change serial on every update, major or minor, and what happened is that crack users where geting last versions after a few minutes it where relised, but legal users waited for a few days to get new serial that sometimes was incorrect, so a few users of cracks where joking about such a paradox on Resco's forum.

All this especcially true for such a small company with single developer, i am sure that if you'll put costs of new protection development and all things related to it in adverstements, web site, more videos\tutorials and so on then you'll get MUCH better results.

[lc8b105]

To tell the truth，Piracy software will increase the well-known of your software, and this is a big advertising effectiveness in a different way.

As you said, Someone who usually purchaces software, will purcace 3DC if he uses it, but someone who never purchaces it will not buy it but will try to find a crack. If there is no crack,then he will not use it(Then you are not increase the sell,but lost a live advertising man). Put your minds on how anti-Piracy is futile, that will not increase your sells.

Encryption can not protect your software, only laws can.

Sorry,this is only my personal opinion.The final results is depends on yourself.

PS: But the precondition is that your current situation is not so bad.If you fall into a big problem, the sells even can't feed the normal develop,then I will support you to do more things on how to anti-Piracy.

[Roger_K]

I'd love to be rid of the hardware key, I'm happy however to put up with it if it means your getting paid for your work and scumbags arent stealing it from you.

I know this isnt a popular view but i'd buy a dongle if it was available, its very handy to be able to move a license with you between jobs and locations

[philnolan3d]

I'm not sure which way to go on this. I really hate my LightWave key. I can't count the number of times I've brought my laptop 20 minutes to a Starbucks only to realize when I got there that I forgot my dongle so I couldn't work. Right now I'm perfectly happy, but I already have keys for both of the computers I use. I can imagine situations where it isn't possibly or practical for someone to have a key on every computer they use.

[wailingmonkey]

here are some interesting recent articles about piracy (although it applies

to the casual games market which is a bit different than using software as

a development tool) at gamasutra:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

(follow-up)

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17408

Personally, I'm kinda with lc8b105 and yukon_28 on the topic. What you

perceive as 'lost' revenue via pirated copies may not be anything more

than a curious downloader who's more interested in getting something 'free'

(as opposed to just trying the demo) than actually using the program or

even using the program to make money from. You may expend more time/

money/energy on protecting the software to the detriment of the users who

actually pay or will pay for it legitimately, thereby alienating them and

potentially hurting your reputation as a result.

My own bottom-line is that I am willing to give up convenience to a reasonable

degree (as it currently exists) such that I can still work on multiple machines

and you have some peace of mind that the software is not passed around

for free/casual use on a whim.

cheers.

wailingmonkey

[Andrew Shpagin]

May be my statement was slightly not clear (I must study english better). In general I want (but it is under question) to kick out any fight against piracy (remain only trivial blocking some distibuted keys). I want to give serials that are hardware independent. You will be able to use soft on any computer. What do you think about such kind of license?

[JimB]

I just put 3D Coat in to Google and this is the result I got

Look at the first and third result,I did not go to this site or try the link.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=3D+Coat&a...art=30&sa=N

Jim

[sunfire]

Wow that will be alot usefull, Please make it without hardware locks! I have to Format my disc several times and I have to ask for a new serial, so that will be very excellent idea! I'm afraid the hackers always find their way no matter the security. Thanks!

Se me olvidaba decir que tengo una laptop I me gustaria usar el software que he comprado en ella, pues es el unico programa que he comprado que no puedo instalar en mi laptop y es una gran limitacion del programa. Gracias

[philnolan3d]

Oh well that would be much nicer than a dongle or hardware locking!

[SonK]

Wow that will be alot usefull, Please make it without hardware locks! I have to Format my disc several times and I have to ask for a new serial, so that will be very excellent idea! I'm afraid the hackers always find their way no matter the security. Thanks!

Se me olvidaba decir que tengo una laptop I me gustaria usar el software que he comprado en ella, pues es el unico programa que he comprado que no puedo instalar en mi laptop y es una gran limitacion del programa. Gracias

Me too! Andrew was nice enough to send new serial very quickly.

May be my statement was slightly not clear (I must study english better). In general I want (but it is under question) to kick out any fight against piracy (remain only trivial blocking some distibuted keys). I want to give serials that are hardware independent. You will be able to use soft on any computer. What do you think about such kind of license?

That would be so much easier. I think that's how Luxology(makers of Modo) have their license setup. Its a license file that you can use on as many computer , as long as only one copy is in used. Software should be licensed to the users, not tied down to a specific computer.

So in short. I'm all for it! :lol:

[lc8b105]

"Software should be licensed to the users, not tied down to a specific computer."

This sounds reasonable.

[rqe3bc]

As a "new" customer I would also prefer software not to be locked to a specific hard drive. I have run into the situation (several times) where I have purchased software I can no longer use because of this (sometimes the company changes hands or goes out of business) so it's money down the drain.

However, as long as I have a licence key or serial number, I'm good to go no matter how often I need to change systems - I usually replace my laptop every 1-2 years.

[TheRazorsEdge]

"Software should be licensed to the users, not tied down to a specific computer."

This sounds reasonable.

I agree with this one 100%.

I guess Maxon is the only one of the 3D app big boys currently practicing that and they seem to be doing just fine. Plus it alleviates issues with reformats & hardware changes, which I tend do to quite frequently as well.

[2Mylent]

Personally, I prefer the licence key or serial number, not dongles (in addition should manage shipments postals ).

However, I also regularly exchange hardware configuration and hence, a licence key or serial number by USER is preferable for me .

Moreover, we should not either, consider the USERs paying licensing, as potential hacker otherwise, it is doing more ....

----------------------------------

Pour ma part, je préfère des numeros de licences et pas de dongles (en plus il faudrait gérer les envois postals).

Par contre, je change aussi régulièrement de configuration matériel et donc, un N° par USER est nettement préferable.

De plus, il ne faudrait pas non plus, considerer les USERs payant les licences, comme de potentiel hacker sinon, on s'en sort plus....

[Roger_K]

I changed my HDD and videocard recently and Adobe decided that im using photoshop on too many computers I have to ring them and have an argument every time i want to activate. So anyway of avoiding that again would be nice.

Autodesk were great and 10min after emailing them i was up and running... I'm not going to spend anymore money with adobe considering their feckless attitude to my €800 investment

[nemac4]

I like the idea of being able to move the license with me.

A few years back I bought another software package with hardware locked license keys. I switch computers every 6 months or so. It was a pain to re-license every time and after changing my email address, it only got worse. I don't use that software anymore.

[Megalodon]

This is one of the reasons I don't buy into XFrog. Every time I reformat my computer I'd have to e-mail them for yet another license key. I definitely agree that each user should have his/her own individual license that is tied to THEM, not hardware.

I haven't purchased 3D Coat yet, but if a permament serial number/license ley were issued instead it being hardware locked... I would buy it immediately!

Megalodon

[JimB]

I totally dislike hardware keys and machine locked key codes it only hurts the legitimate

licensee.

[Andrew Shpagin]

I have one idea how to make hardware independent keys. It is easy to implement and hard to hack. I started thi topic to understand if it really required. The properies of new keys:

1) User can install and use 3DC on any computer with hardware independent key.

2) If key is distributed by user or can be found on any download of hackers site it will be locked and all next updates will reject the key.

3) If user uses key generator there will be a big probability of instabe work (it will be seen during first 5 minutes of work)

What do think about this idea?

[lc8b105]

I have one idea how to make hardware independent keys. It is easy to implement and hard to hack. I started thi topic to understand if it really required. The properies of new keys:

1) User can install and use 3DC on any computer with hardware independent key.

2) If key is distributed by user or can be found on any download of hackers site it will be locked and all next updates will reject the key.

3) If user uses key generator there will be a big probability of instabe work (it will be seen during first 5 minutes of work)

What do think about this idea?

Andrew,the first two points are bright and reasonable.

But,what's the mean of the third point? Is that necessary? Can't this will misunderstand the live advertising men that the instable is due to 3dC it's self ?

Is it will not misunderstand people that 3DC is a very instable software?

[Andrew Shpagin]

Yes, you are right. Crash is not good method to exit. It is very hard nut for hackers because it is almost impossible to find the reason of instability, but ... it is really not good because software will look like instable. Ok, I can do something other - simple messagebox that will appear in 2-3 minutes if key is not fully right. The checking procedure will be distributed in time and it will be not easy to find all conditions for valid key.

[SonK]

I have one idea how to make hardware independent keys. It is easy to implement and hard to hack. I started thi topic to understand if it really required. The properies of new keys:

1) User can install and use 3DC on any computer with hardware independent key.

2) If key is distributed by user or can be found on any download of hackers site it will be locked and all next updates will reject the key.

3) If user uses key generator there will be a big probability of instabe work (it will be seen during first 5 minutes of work)

What do think about this idea?

I like all 3 point, so go for it. this will be apart of 2.09?

Isimple messagebox that will appear in 2-3 minutes if key is not fully right.

sounds reasonable.

[WillBellJr]

I'd love to be rid of the hardware key, I'm happy however to put up with it if it means your getting paid for your work and scumbags arent stealing it from you.

I know this isnt a popular view but i'd buy a dongle if it was available, its very handy to be able to move a license with you between jobs and locations

I totally agree here - I recently asked myself if it were possible to run this app on 3 machines (home / work desktop and my laptop) while told yes, I then realized that at my job, we run with restricted internet domains; 3D-Coat's domain is definitely not on the list so when the app goes to register it will fail anyway unless there's some kind of email based registration method...

I don't mind a hardware key just for this reason, the software should be licensed to ME not my computer! I paid for it, I should be able to run it where ever I am!

I wish there was a way where software keys could all be loaded onto a singular USB key, this way ALL your app's registrations could be loaded onto your key and travel with you!

-Will

[sunfire]

that sounds great, but the hackers stole serials too or not?

[WillBellJr]

Actually what I had meant to say was hardware key instead of software.

All usb dongles have programmable resources on them - my idea is instead of using dedicated Hasp or Rainbow keys (have you seen Softimage's dongle - lawd, thing has a clock on it and everything! ) to be able to have the software company provide you with some kind of cryptographic data file that unlocks their program - these files would be copied to your usb key.

Natually the usb key would be volume encrypted and require a password once connected so if lost someone wouldn't just have a field day with all your keys!

These files would most likely be small, a coupla K or so - a hella cheap 16 or 32 meg usb key could hold tens to hundreds of these soft-crypto keys.

I could just see having my Photoshop, Lightwave, XSI, Procoder and others all on this key - ONE key instead of a hand full.

Losing the key wouldn't be so devastating as it is now (LAWD the time I couldn't find my Lightwave key for a couple of days!) since you'd (hopefully) have the crypto files backed up ready to be reinstalled onto a new usb key...

Another thing I'd like to see become a standard among software companies is a 5/15/30 day grace period when you CAN'T (RE)ACTIVATE your application for some reason.

This covers you when you're at a customer site and you forgot your key or can't activate for some reason - at least you're not locked out of your >legally owned< app and can continue to work...

Now, when you do finally (re)activate or plug in your key, that resets the grace timer for another emergency use whenever needed!

This is important cause most apps now timeout their grace timer permanently after the number of day are up so you're stuck if you forget your key or can't (re)activate for whatever reason.

See I don't mind software hauses wanting to protect their products and investments, BUT I also don't want to be >inconvenienced< and NOT be able to use my legitimately owned software whenever and where ever I may be.

-Will

[Megalodon]

What do think about this idea?

Perfect! Once this is implemented... I've bought it!

I have many computers here in my office (that ONLY I use) and I'd love to have it installed on several machines and use it while LW is rendering on other machines. I do this with several programs and it makes it very easy to use them on any machine.

This would be a perfect solution. Can't wait till you add this "feature!"

[yukon_28]

Andrew,the first two points are bright and reasonable.

But,what's the mean of the third point? Is that necessary? Can't this will misunderstand the live advertising men that the instable is due to 3dC it's self ?

Is it will not misunderstand people that 3DC is a very instable software?

Agree 100%

Yes, you are right. Crash is not good method to exit. It is very hard nut for hackers because it is almost impossible to find the reason of instability, but ... it is really not good because software will look like instable. Ok, I can do something other - simple messagebox that will appear in 2-3 minutes if key is not fully right. The checking procedure will be distributed in time and it will be not easy to find all conditions for valid key.

Andrew, dont do it. Try to google name "Anton Tomov" in relation to software "Pocket Mechanic" and you'll see what it leads to. This guy is PDA sw developer, tried to fight pirates. and coded instability and even hard reset (auto format) algorithms into program, if keygened serial were used. But, hi is hurted himself, not pirates, when info about this comes to diferent forums (and i mean to legal forums), all users where inaccepting such methods and many users stoped to use program because such bomb inside it, it hurted sales hardly, not only Pocket Mechanic sales but sales of all software developed by Anton Tomov.

[Andrew Shpagin]

Really, reformatting and rebooting is something terrible :lol: I will not do that. But simple messagebox that will tell that code is incorrect is not so terrible and absolutely not dangerous .

[rqe3bc]

I have one program that requires an internet connection to validate the licence *every time* it's updated. This gets quite annoying because the software is updated often, and that means I can't use it until I can get an internet connection (no, I'm not on the internet 24/7 )

The first two options sound reasonable to me - I just want to use the software when I need it.