Taros Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 No comment, just very interesting and impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 16, 2010 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 No comment, just very interesting and impressive. I just wish they would listen to their users in regard to 3DConnexion support. Having to navigate the old school way is like going back to the horse and buggy. Zbrush is made for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted August 16, 2010 Contributor Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 No comment, just very interesting and impressive. The Shadow Box is the same as 3DCoat 's Sketch Tool that we have since many many months. But what is great is Pixologic made it interactive using live masks instead of imported images. While in 3DCoat we need to make our mask in an external 2d app and its harder to make good matching Top/side/front images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted August 16, 2010 Contributor Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 I just wish they would listen to their users in regard to 3DConnexion support. Having to navigate the old school way is like going back to the horse and buggy. Zbrush is made for it. Zbrush is based on what they call the canvas thing.Which is 2.5d. Its always picking and dropping even if the user does not notice. You will never see 3DConnexion support for Zbrush. It would be like UVs on voxels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted August 16, 2010 Contributor Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 No comment, just very interesting and impressive. Yeah impressive on zbrush videos, in reality they are unpractical to use, and full of bug, i can't use the curve clip brush 95% percent of the time. I started using the lasso tool+carve after trying the clip brushes of zb4, 3dcoat is winning hand down in that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 16, 2010 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Yeah impressive on zbrush videos, in reality they are unpractical to use, and full of bug, i can't use the curve clip brush 95% percent of the time. I started using the lasso tool+carve after trying the clip brushes of zb4, 3dcoat is winning hand down in that area. Yeah, I was thinking that you can do much the same with the splines and other drawing tools, interactively as well...you don't need to have to draw masks, when you can start cutting and trimming a voxel object, anyway you please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3DArtist Posted August 16, 2010 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 I was going through some of the ZB4 videos on youtube and came across the I have to say that would be quite handy in 3DC, some kind of move connected vertices/voxels brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted August 16, 2010 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 The Shadow Box is the same as 3DCoat 's Sketch Tool that we have since many many months. But what is great is Pixologic made it interactive using live masks instead of imported images. While in 3DCoat we need to make our mask in an external 2d app and its harder to make good matching Top/side/front images. This was exactly what i was thinking when i watched the video, this seems to do it in a easier and faster way though as it has the direct editing. Maybe 3DC could include some sort of built-in 2D editor as well as offering the current option to use a better external editor when needed. Edit - I looked to see if they have a demo for ZB4 but it seems not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member jedwards Posted August 19, 2010 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 This was exactly what i was thinking when i watched the video, this seems to do it in a easier and faster way though as it has the direct editing. Maybe 3DC could include some sort of built-in 2D editor as well as offering the current option to use a better external editor when needed. Edit - I looked to see if they have a demo for ZB4 but it seems not. Yeah, shadowbox is a much nicer implementation. I found the 3dc method too cumbersome to work with and pretty much ignored it from it's implementation. Then again, it's easy enough to just boolean forms together with voxels anyway, or carve away at them with selection tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Frankly I find the sketch tool confusing to use in any implementation. It seems to require a lot of imagination and forethought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taros Posted August 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Frankly I find the sketch tool confusing to use in any implementation. It seems to require a lot of imagination and forethought. I don't see it this negative. This technique is already very old and known by lot of animation packages like 3ds Max, of course not like in zBrush. It is not this confusing and saves a lot time for some technical parts. I think it is not very important, but a nice extension for zBrush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Member dirtydog Posted August 20, 2010 New Member Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 The Shadow Box is the same as 3DCoat 's Sketch Tool that we have since many many months. But what is great is Pixologic made it interactive using live masks instead of imported images. While in 3DCoat we need to make our mask in an external 2d app and its harder to make good matching Top/side/front images. You can also use imported images in shadowbox, painted by spotlight and then mask by intensity/saturation etc, then draw on the other planes to achieve shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member polyxo Posted August 20, 2010 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Yeah impressive on zbrush videos, in reality they are unpractical to use, and full of bug, i can't use the curve clip brush 95% percent of the time. I started using the lasso tool+carve after trying the clip brushes of zb4, 3dcoat is winning hand down in that area. Hi Beat, in the Manual is an explanation on the correct use of the Curve-Clip-Brush - not all strokes are valid and also the Pen-direction is relevant. I am actually amazed how one can already have an opinion about Zbrush4. I use loads of Software for a decade or so but I have not yet seen an Update that huge! Even more amazing that it is free for existing users. There is so tremendously much new stuff that it will take me weeks if not months to familiarize myself with all of the additions (only the What's new-Manual has incredible 210 pages...). In fact there's areas where it almost feels like learning an entirely new Program as many familar functionalities got their default hotkeys changed or nifty extra abilities added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member G-Rom84 Posted August 20, 2010 Member Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 You will never see 3DConnexion support for Zbrush. useless thing in my opinion, maybe useful for those who have good motility of movements for both hands (which meets very rarely). in other situations, for example, right handed persons who uses this device in their left hand all navigation movements with this thing looks like the person performing them is drunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted August 20, 2010 Contributor Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 useless thing in my opinion, maybe useful for those who have good motility of movements for both hands (which meets very rarely). in other situations, for example, right handed persons who uses this device in their left hand all navigation movements with this thing looks like the person performing them is drunk. I have one actually and i was really excited with it only to discover that I am not able to navigate properly with this. I am much faster navigating with the tablet but I still use it for the Key buttons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member G-Rom84 Posted August 20, 2010 Member Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 simple standart generic keyboard would be cheeper for hotkeys, and also could store some food supplies in it after each brekfast such as cookies, chips and so on you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted August 20, 2010 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Yeah, shadowbox is a much nicer implementation. I found the 3dc method too cumbersome to work with and pretty much ignored it from it's implementation. Then again, it's easy enough to just boolean forms together with voxels anyway, or carve away at them with selection tools. Yeah although i think it could be a very useful tool with a few adjustments. The main problem with it is that it needs what you input to be made already and that is also not done inside the program so a fairly slow workflow. Then if you don't like the results you have to go back and adjust the images again so it's basically a guessing game. The way Z4 does it is much nicer because it's realtime editing and you can see what you are doing always rather than having to guess what it will make. So yeah the tool in 3DC just needs some sort of built in editor then just have the option to import images also, then it could become a very popular feature as it would be a lot simpler to use. This type of tool could be great for hard surface modeling also which is something i know a lot of people using 3DC want recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted August 20, 2010 Contributor Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Yeah although i think it could be a very useful tool with a few adjustments. The main problem with it is that it needs what you input to be made already and that is also not done inside the program so a fairly slow workflow. Then if you don't like the results you have to go back and adjust the images again so it's basically a guessing game. The way Z4 does it is much nicer because it's realtime editing and you can see what you are doing always rather than having to guess what it will make. So yeah the tool in 3DC just needs some sort of built in editor then just have the option to import images also, then it could become a very popular feature as it would be a lot simpler to use. This type of tool could be great for hard surface modeling also which is something i know a lot of people using 3DC want recently. I exactly my thoughts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 20, 2010 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 useless thing in my opinion, maybe useful for those who have good motility of movements for both hands (which meets very rarely). in other situations, for example, right handed persons who uses this device in their left hand all navigation movements with this thing looks like the person performing them is drunk. I wholeheartedly disagree. Most people I've talked with who have a 3DConnexion device are glad to have the support and love the thing. Here you come and flat out slam it to the ground...calling it useless. Do you have one, and if so, what have you tried it with? I have a SpacePilot and it is the primary reason I haven't been using my seat of Mudbox much (no 3DConnexion support either). One of the things I like about it especially is the ability to paint and sculpt simultaneously while rotating around your model. No more sculpt...stop....rotate...sculpt...stop...rotate. It even speeds up tedious tasks in the retopo room. For example, sometimes the strokes tool will leave you with entire strips of poly's missing to have to go in and manually add in with something like the Points and faces. I literally can do that 2-3 times as fast using the spacepilot by gradually rotating around the model, while clicking to lay down polys as fast as I can, and it works like a charm. I can grab a vert (hold it) and rotate to another view and align it on the other axis as I rotate it. If you don't have coordination skills, how does that make the tool and support for it, useless for others? You can get from point A to Point B with shoe leather, a bicycle, or horse and buggy...but when I have the choice to use a Lexus instead, guess which one I'm going to choose...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 This does look useful since you can edit the images and see a real time result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psmith Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Now, Don - you tried to make a convert out of me - and, in all seriousness, I did give it a go. I can see where, for the specific retopo task you speak of, it is quite useful and fast. But, it does require a rather ambidextrous ability to navigate with the thing without getting a DUI. I, at least had to turn off the "tilt" feature to avoid using Dramamine, at the same time. It's just one of those things. Here in Flagstaff, I kind of think I'd like to be driving a horse and buggy. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 20, 2010 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Now, Don - you tried to make a convert out of me - and, in all seriousness, I did give it a go. I can see where, for the specific retopo task you speak of, it is quite useful and fast. But, it does require a rather ambidextrous ability to navigate with the thing without getting a DUI. I, at least had to turn off the "tilt" feature to avoid using Dramamine, at the same time. It's just one of those things. Here in Flagstaff, I kind of think I'd like to be driving a horse and buggy. Greg I'm not ambidextrous, and sure...like the Wacom tablet or anything, it takes a little adjustment period. Riding a bike didn't come naturally, but once I got the hang of it...it sure seemed like it. Some people, like the Ammish, are just adverse to new technologies...if you fall in that camp, more power to you. However, it's a mistake to make a blanket statement that it's rubbish (just because you don't particular like it or find it useful). Ask Leigh or Javis, most anyone who uses a 3DConnexion device...the vast majority would beg to differ. There are so many things you can do with it that make it worthwhile...another example: You can, with the same hand, select an orthographic view, select the "3D Lock" button (in the center of the view keys on the SpacePilot), hold down the pen and with a simple twist of the knob, get a perfect 360 degree indentation or extrusion, etc. Once you've done this, you will find all kinds of situations where this will come in handy. You just CANNNOT do that without the device....period. So, you were saying that it's perfect weather for a horse and buggy ride in Arizona? I think the AC and cruise control would come in handy...oh, that's right, you don't have that feature available in an Ammmish buggy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member G-Rom84 Posted August 20, 2010 Member Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 I wholeheartedly disagree. Its your right of course to have the different point of view from mine. Do you have one, and if so, what have you tried it with? No, luckily i have not step into temptation to spend money(the price is sick almost 800$ O_O) for device, which i am absolutely sure would lay under my table and collect dust. I tried it in max and the only thing which found useful, that it could be possible to navigate around the model due the cutting edges process whithout need to reactivate the cut tool, because in max it canceles cut tool after you begin to rotate around with standart navigation... In other apps there is no such trouble. also i must admit it could do a good job for animators, while animating camera movements... but i`m not animator, and i have only one right hand. with my left hand its inconvenient moving in scene whith any device such as mouse tablet or whatever, because it resulting in jumping inaccurate movements, also it has a few amount of buttons in comparison with a keyboard and switching from one device to another is not the funniest thing in the world due this process you also loosing your time. No more sculpt...stop....rotate...sculpt...stop...rotate. hehe, but how? After you have exposed the point of interest on the model, most likely you stoping the navigation process and begining to sculpt/paint/move verticles and so on, i am hardly beliving that you doing 2 tasks of navigating and modeling simultaneously, mabybe some sort of work in conjunction with drifting navigation and not so often. If you don't have coordination skills, how does that make the tool and support for it, useless for others? I dont think most of people have those skisls for the both hands. i could navigate well with my right hand, but what shoud do the left hand during this process if i coud not paint or sculpt with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 21, 2010 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Its your right of course to have the different point of view from mine. No, luckily i have not step into temptation to spend money(the price is sick almost 800$ O_O) for device, which i am absolutely sure would lay under my table and collect dust. I tried it in max and the only thing which found useful, that it could be possible to navigate around the model due the cutting edges process whithout need to reactivate the cut tool, because in max it canceles cut tool after you begin to rotate around with standart navigation... In other apps there is no such trouble. also i must admit it could do a good job for animators, while animating camera movements... but i`m not animator, and i have only one right hand. with my left hand its inconvenient moving in scene whith any device such as mouse tablet or whatever, because it resulting in jumping inaccurate movements, also it has a few amount of buttons in comparison with a keyboard and switching from one device to another is not the funniest thing in the world due this process you also loosing your time. hehe, but how? After you have exposed the point of interest on the model, most likely you stoping the navigation process and begining to sculpt/paint/move verticles and so on, i am hardly beliving that you doing 2 tasks of navigating and modeling simultaneously, mabybe some sort of work in conjunction with drifting navigation and not so often. I dont think most of people have those skisls for the both hands. i could navigate well with my right hand, but what shoud do the left hand during this process if i coud not paint or sculpt with it? This is why I asked if you had one...cause you're making assumptions without firsthand knowledge. If you don't use it, why not reserve judgment? Leigh Bamforth mentions this ability (to paint/sculpt while rotating about the model), while he's doing it in his DVD's...check em out:http://www.kurvstudios.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Store_Code=KURV&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=01-02-14 By the way, you can buy a SpacePilot on EBay anywhere between $50-$100...not $800. http://cgi.ebay.com/3Dconnexion-SpacePilot-3D-motion-controller-USB-/280551295693?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psmith Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Now, Don - again, you are making assumptions. Flagstaff, Arizona, is a mountain town with pines and aspens and it never gets over about 90 degrees - so, yes, a horse and buggy would be quite nice. In fact, it would allow you to take in all the beauty that surrounds you here. And, cars would take special care not to run you down and would find the rig "quaint". A Lexus would be quite out of place and overpowered for our slow moving streets. Too many pedestrians. Stop, and smell the roses, Don. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 21, 2010 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Now, Don - again, you are making assumptions. Flagstaff, Arizona, is a mountain town with pines and aspens and it never gets over about 90 degrees - so, yes, a horse and buggy would be quite nice. In fact, it would allow you to take in all the beauty that surrounds you here. And, cars would take special care not to run you down and would find the rig "quaint". A Lexus would be quite out of place and overpowered for our slow moving streets. Too many pedestrians. Stop, and smell the roses, Don. Greg No time for rose sniffing when you're in a rush to get to work, right?...unless that is your vocation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member G-Rom84 Posted August 21, 2010 Member Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 This is why I asked if you had one...cause you're making assumptions without firsthand knowledge. but why? i tried it for enough amount of time and found that this device not for everyone, and not giving such vital benefit for its price, like for example graphic tablet do. If you don't use it, why not reserve judgment? to warn trustful people against purchasing things which it can appear unnecessary... and actualy why if u using it you think everybody must and be happy of it? By the way, you can buy a SpacePilot on EBay anywhere between $50-$100...not $800.http://cgi.ebay.com/...DefaultDomain_0 No, I don't like to buy used things, and have not took into consideration this opportunity even if it would cost lower, its comfortably enough to work with pen in one hand and keyboard under another, instead of saerching headaches. If to speak about E-Bay, even if it is possible to find new goods there, often dealers not shipping them to my country only US or Canada accepted, rarely Europe. For the European E-Bay prices on goods are not far from mine which are in my local store, 50$ would not change to much, and would not iincline me to prefer spend less $ and make order on e-bay, mess with shippment, guarantee if sh!t happen accidently and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member rstralberg Posted August 21, 2010 Member Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 I do have a ZBrush4 license and was at first exited over all the new things. BUT! Now I'm back to 3DCoat after a week of the simple reason that 3DCoat is simpler and serves creating of game assets much better. Making a retopology in ZBrush is not cool at all. So my five cents goes to 3DCoat at least when making 3D game assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 21, 2010 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 but why? i tried it for enough amount of time and found that this device not for everyone, and not giving such vital benefit for its price, like for example graphic tablet do. to warn trustful people against purchasing things which it can appear unnecessary... and actualy why if u using it you think everybody must and be happy of it? No, I don't like to buy used things, and have not took into consideration this opportunity even if it would cost lower, its comfortably enough to work with pen in one hand and keyboard under another, instead of saerching headaches. If to speak about E-Bay, even if it is possible to find new goods there, often dealers not shipping them to my country only US or Canada accepted, rarely Europe. For the European E-Bay prices on goods are not far from mine which are in my local store, 50$ would not change to much, and would not iincline me to prefer spend less $ and make order on e-bay, mess with shippment, guarantee if sh!t happen accidently and so on. Well...it's fine to give an opinion, but to say outright that it's useless is wrong. If you tried it, you obviously never gave yourself the same adjustment period that you would allow for a Wacom tablet. And for $50-$100, it pays for itself in no time....used or new. I bought mine on EBay, used and have noticed no difference at all between it and a new one...plus I had the option to get a warranty for it for an extra $10 bucks or so. It just seems to me that you're making excuses, rather than trying to give the thing a real chance. That's fine if you're referring to your own experience....but to dogmatically proclaim here that it's worthless is an erroneous, ill-informed statement. Many here would certainly disagree with it. It's such an immense help for me that it has, and remains to be the No.1 reason I use 3D Coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member G-Rom84 Posted August 21, 2010 Member Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Well...it's fine to give an opinion, but to say outright that it's useless is wrong. If you tried it, you obviously never gave yourself the same adjustment period that you would allow for a Wacom tablet. well, actualy i started my first post in this topic with the worlds "in my opinion" which of course not representing the whole picture about things are going on for all artists. I bought mine on EBay, used and have noticed no difference at all between it and a new one...plus I had the option to get a warranty for it for an extra $10 bucks or so. It just seems to me that you're making excuses, rather than trying to give the thing a real chance. its the matter of luck you have encountered the same behavior with used and new device. It's such an immense help for me that it has, and remains to be the No.1 reason I use 3D Coat. for coat maybe, i discovered that with some tools camera rotation modes like custom pivot, or pick point is ignored and navigation happens around world`s center wich no good especialy while trying to pull with spline tool small body parts like fingers, tails and other thumbs for such kind of work you need to fly around local place of intrest... but i think it could be fixed and the range of tasks where navigator is helpful will be narrowed more:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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