3D-Coat 3.0 ALPHA

[philnolan3d]

Use color picker to change color

Oh LOL OK. :lol:

[Psmith]

3dioot:

In defense of my requests, let me start by asking who you think will comprise the majority user base of the 3D-Coat software, (especially in the first development stages) -

High end 3D professionals

Serious 3D students

Beginning & advanced Hobbiests

Other

Andrew must have a good idea who he is aiming this software towards, especially at the current price point and feature set currently usable and under development.

I would argue that the professionals are already entrenched in either daily use of ZBrush or Mudbox. Both applications supply a very useful arsenal of tools for the professional 3D artist. Why, at this point in development, would they jump ship to a newly developing application?

If Andrew is intending to develop 3D-Coat for the purpose of making money, then I'm certain he must pay attention to who he perceives are his initial adopters as well as potential adopters.

Also, I'm pretty sure Andrew has a very good idea of what directions he intends to develop 3DCoat, of course, based on his observations of the market and user requests.

Comparing the development of 3D-Coat with the creation of any masterpiece - generally speaking, the artist proceeds from the general to the specific. In the case of software creation, I would think Andrew is working from general functionality, (all the time refining existing features), right down to the extremely specific details that you, yourself, have requested with fervor.

From my observations, the ability to retopologize general mesh structures is a highly requested feature and now available in almost all popular 3D applications, including Blender. I believe this is due to the growing trend toward game content development, (where attention to topology is extremely important - especially with regard to economy of polygon usage). The inclusion of topological functions, it seems to me, fits the category of "general" 3D software functionality.

3D models designed for the ultimate purpose of game content, 3D animation and even rapid prototyping applications, (at this stage in hardware commonality and affordability), must be represented by means other than raw hundreds of millions of polygons, (where detail is concerned). 3D-Coat offers a very nice compromise, (utilising displacement mapping) for this hardware limitation. As you know, this already exists and is usable in the "regular" 3D-Coat module.

For voxel sculpting to become completely practical, for the most popular uses stated above, the model must be translated into polygons to be capable of being used in the "regular" 3D-Coat module. An automatic conversion algorithm is very difficult to implement, and not usually pleasing to the end user, anyway. That leaves manual conversion as the only alternative. This, in turn, translates into user defined retopologisation, (not really a word, but I think you know what I mean).

You have expressed the need for very specific and, as you have said, "perfect" brush functionality for use in the work that you do. Not just in one or two of the existing brushes, but in all of them. I would suggest that this request, if taken totally seriously by Andrew, would be the equivalent of asking Andrew to put most of his energy and time into "painting pores" into the skin of his rapidly developing masterpiece before he has even roughed out the general proportions of the overall application "figure", so to speak.

Regarding user ability to improperly use content developed with both voxel tools and then regular tools, for commercial usage: the ability to export from voxel module to regular module could be limited to the demo version, only.

Psmith

[3DBob]

Hi Andrew,

Well, it is 8 weeks since I have had a chance to work with 3DCoat. I have been taking time out with my wife in France having our first child! Really special time.

I am back on the ground now in India and have done my first doodle with the new Voxel Tools.

Firstly can I say thankyou, thankyou for taking up the challenge of doing the retopo toolset - I truely believe you have created the best solution out there. Well done. Though one of my staff did say that nomal maps are not attached in nodal in LW in the current version when you export an LWO.

Now Voxel Modelling.

AWESOME! LOVE IT! ever since I saw the synaptics tool I've wanted this - coming from a traditional clay modelling background this is the closest way to the flexibility you can get with real clay. It always frustrated me having to subdivide to overcome poly stretching and have to model in a base mesh holes etc in Mud box and Zbrush. Being able to mask off areas and hide voxels would be awsome as it would allow working within holes without damaging other areas. It could also speed working on certain mesh areas.

I would love this tool to be able to import XYZ point cloud data from scanners - even better XYZ RGB!

Anyhoo, I have spent a few hours doodling with it and from the standard sphere and just using Move/spray/melt and smooth tool I have modelled this:-

Not amazing, but a start. Just getting to grips. I did notice that the melt part of the tool can chop holes into an object and isn't really the reverse of spray (except in built up areas), which would be ideal.

I can see that Voxel sculpting, retopo and fine detail / paint is going to be a killer workflow - especially with the native LWO export and Normal/displacement map generation to low poly base mesh.

Where others have only done a half solution, I am really beginning to have faith that you could provide and very powerful integrated workflow.

I also really like the ability to work with imported mesh data and linear clones.

All good.

I think ends of curves would be better to be hemispheres rather than flat - could be a check box. This would make it easier to rough out organic base blobs Z-Spheres but better.

This tool is progressing very nicely - If you refine it as diligently as you did the Retopo toolset I will be a very happy man (plus I'd want a whole bag full of upgrades for my team)

3DBob

[BluEgo]

Hi PSmith, I think that is not a question if it is right or not doing retopo, cause simply is already there for standard surfaces.

I think that for Andrew should be very simple convert it for voxel mode, cause actually he has to tesselate voxels to display them.

In other words, retopo tools there will be before release, but for now it should be better if what is already done (brush tools) could be improved and better organized.

I am waiting retopology tools too, but I am patient and confident that voxel sculpt is the future

[3dioot]

@psmith

Your completely missing the point. I never said you should not be able to convert it to a polygon mesh. I said it was a "no brainer" you will be able to use all of 3dcoats functionality on your voxel sculpts. Im not denying you, nor the target audience your implying 3dcoat is made for (which ranks from hobbyists to the elite professionals if you need to know) any functionality.

Really this renders the rest of your rather long argument useless. If you would have taken the time to read my previous posts (which you've clearly havent) i, myself, even stated that its probably neccesary to keep the final high detail (i even used the words pores and wrinkles) in mesh brushing. However this removes nothing from my original point or from where voxel sculpting could go. Andrew is allready broadening his target audiences by implementing a sculpting solution so really, your points are mood.

Andrew also allready said he was willing to fulfill your request.

You will get what you want. Lets leave it at that.

3dioot

PS

And yes, what BluEgo said.

[philnolan3d]

Plus remember, it's still in alpha, hasn't even hit beta yet.

[artaq]

I've been an observer of the forums for a better part of a month now, but I did feel inclined to comment on the direction Andrew is going regarding 3D Coat's development... As several have mentioned, this application is being designed as a swiss army knife of sorts; giving an artist the ability to paint, re-topologize, and now sculpt all on their own would be quite the feat for any app to accomplish well, but here we see one application that does them all very admirably. My question would be this - what is the purpose of the voxel sculpting tools...? As PSmith mentioned there are several, more familiar packages that accomplish sculpting well, and have large volumes of users that have proven track records given the quality of artwork that's generated from them. Is 3D Coat looking to encroach upon this market?

If so, then bravo - I'm completely behind the solution being developed. I can see the immense potential that already exists even at this early stage, but in all honesty if this is the direction Andrew is going, there is still much work to be done. Whether us as his user base likes it or not, in order for this software to be used in the professional market (I'm in the game industry, could see the immense potential for affordable all-in-one packages) it really needs to have the capability of doing immense amounts of detail, not unlike the "painting pores" mentioned by PSmith . That's what grabs users. To see images that exemplify that amount of detail with such a powerful package make waves throughout the industry.

If this package is merely there to block-in general detail, and get a mesh to a sculpted state minus extreme detail, then I think it's almost there. Unfortunately I also feel there are several other packages that do this exact same thing, maybe not the same way, nor as well as 3D-Coat, but Silo and Modo both have sculpting capabilities that mimic to a degree those that we're seeing in 3DCoat.

Sorry for my rant, I look forward to monitoring the exciting progress this application is making; I wouldn't have purchased it if I didn't think something amazing was being developed

[artaq]

BTW 3dioot, loving the direction that skull is going... That's exactly the type of work that turns heads

[3dioot]

I will say this only once because this is getting boring. There are NO affordable (nor in mudbox or zbrush's pricerange) other programs that have 3dcoats voxel sculpting. Its unique.

Its unique in how good it is allready and it is unique in its potential. You all act like 3dcoats sculpting is bad, low detail and crap. Its not. It needs development. The detail you can allready achieve is amazing. It just needs alot of refinement and then it will get really close. Really close plus the unique advantages voxels bring (which i think many here are still completely oblivious to) will turn it, indeed, into a competitor for the likes of zbrush and mudbox. Remember that traditional artists made the move to the digital realm with zbrush because it was so "easy". If you would have spend some time sculpting with voxels, and thinking about the freedom and advantages it brings compared to mesh based sculpting you would realise that those people, from a traditional clay background, may find an enormous appeal in 3dcoat over zbrush. And 3dcoat would not need to mimic every feature of zbrush to hold that advantage. And there are plenty of game artists, movie artists, and fine artists that would love to work this freely as well. Even IF you "only" use it for a basecage but there is plenty of proof in this thread with an alpha that it will go well beyond that.

However, regarding basics. When you are talking about a digital sculpting application. The brush engine and brush behaviour is basics. There is nothing more basic then that. So stop implying i am asking for something thats not applicable to 3dcoat's current development because its the core of its current development which is, like it or not, about sculpting.

3dioot

PS

Thanks artag. I know rimmason visits this thread too and i just hope he takes the time out to just make one nice thing in 3dcoats voxel sculpting. Lacking that though I really wish i was a better artist so i could show the potential of this tool both to the people doubting and to Andrew.

Also artag before i forget. The reason voxel tools are so important is because its the voxel sculpting that currently gives 3dcoats its edge. It should play to its advantage and make the most of them. Many tools are cleaner and more predictable when done in voxels and apart from that, when it comes to mesh based sculpting 3dcoat is behind the curve with zbrush and mudbox. A really kick ass voxel sculpting base (with all the advantage the technology brings) with a moderate to good mesh sculpting part on the very, very top of it can compete. Also; like its so important to "better" zbrush or mudbox. Zbrush's topo tools are utter crap and mudbox doesnt have any.

[3DBob]

I have and use/have used ZB3, Silo, Modo

In my opinion,

3DCs Painting/sculpting has a unique and useful toolset.

3DCs Retopo is by far the best with many unique and speedy approaches to the task

3DC promised Voxel toolset is unique amongst this peer group and allows users to create objects with holes far faster than the other tools - period.

3DCs integration with Lightwave sets it apart from all of the other tools.

I have not used ZB3 or Silo in quite a while. Many jobs simply do not require pore-level detail.

3DBob

[3DBob]

3dioot,

Could not agree more, coming from a traditional sculpting background (albeit 18 years ago now) - Voxel sculpting is by far the most natural experience I have had to date in 3D object generation - and I can say that after 2 hours of use.

I have spent 1000s of hours with all the other meathods - this tops them.

3DBob

[artaq]

3dioot - I agree regarding what you've said, I hope my initial post here was not viewed as negative towards 3DCoat, it's quite the contrary. I want nothing more than for this application to succeed, and frankly getting into the semantics is probably best moved into another forum topic. The potential for this application is extraordinary, and I feel privileged to see this being developed at such an early stage.

I work with some individuals who are exemplary in the 3D sculpting arena, many worked on things you may be familiar with , I'm getting some positive feedback from these guys, and I hope to get them involved in using the tool more as it's being developed.

Keep up the great work Andrew!

[3dioot]

3dioot - I agree regarding what you've said, I hope my initial post here was not viewed as negative towards 3DCoat, it's quite the contrary. I want nothing more than for this application to succeed, and frankly getting into the semantics is probably best moved into another forum topic. The potential for this application is extraordinary, and I feel privileged to see this being developed at such an early stage.

I work with some individuals who are exemplary in the 3D sculpting arena, many worked on things you may be familiar with , I'm getting some positive feedback from these guys, and I hope to get them involved in using the tool more as it's being developed.

Keep up the great work Andrew!

Didnt take it as negative. All i can say is get them in here. The big names with lots of experience and great artistic skills. Im certain their feedback will help 3dcoat's sculpting development immensely.

3dioot

PS

About the symantics; you are probably right. I should focus on finishing that skull. Im getting sick of that thing by now. Funny note; i actually made that by following a dvd on sculpting the human skull in clay. And i could do every single thing the instructor has done without ever stopping with sculpting. (for something like say; retopo.. )

[3DArtist]

This is a quick mock-up of a brush falloff editor.

Nothing revolutionary, just getting my ideas together.

I envision this encompassing all brushes color\sculpt\voxel.

Specifically for the sculpt\voxel brushes, maybe the profile editor could allow points to be below 0. this would let a brush sculpt in and out at the same time.

And as far as using a profile with negative points and non sculpting brushes (color), it would just clamp the values to 0.

Andrew:

The new curve options are awesome! And im looking forward to advances in the shaders too.

Out of curiosity, where is masking and hiding voxels on your timeline?

[Crusoe]

Man, it keeps getting better and better.

I make meshes for making pewter models. The masters are 3d printed, and cast. Just being able to 'stamp' detail with a tool and then generate a mesh is wonderful!

www.3d-miniatures.com

There are some algorithms that can give you a decent quad mesh, good for further high detail sculpting, but probably not animation ( of course, you could clean it up with 3D coat's killer tools ).

http://www.k-3d.org/wiki/QuadrilateralRemeshing

Lot of papers here:

http://graphics.cs.uiuc.edu/~kircher/harmonic-preprint.pdf

What would also be nice is a way to 'slice' the voxel volume into seperate parts, perhaps with a plane that can have a 'bump' in it so you can produce keyed parts for 3d printing and final assembly.

Native STL export would be killer too.

[SonK]

I've been an observer of the forums for a better part of a month now, but I did feel inclined to comment on the direction Andrew is going regarding 3D Coat's development... As several have mentioned, this application is being designed as a swiss army knife of sorts; giving an artist the ability to paint, re-topologize, and now sculpt all on their own would be quite the feat for any app to accomplish well, but here we see one application that does them all very admirably. My question would be this - what is the purpose of the voxel sculpting tools...? As PSmith mentioned there are several, more familiar packages that accomplish sculpting well, and have large volumes of users that have proven track records given the quality of artwork that's generated from them. Is 3D Coat looking to encroach upon this market?

If so, then bravo - I'm completely behind the solution being developed. I can see the immense potential that already exists even at this early stage, but in all honesty if this is the direction Andrew is going, there is still much work to be done. Whether us as his user base likes it or not, in order for this software to be used in the professional market (I'm in the game industry, could see the immense potential for affordable all-in-one packages) it really needs to have the capability of doing immense amounts of detail, not unlike the "painting pores" mentioned by PSmith . That's what grabs users. To see images that exemplify that amount of detail with such a powerful package make waves throughout the industry.

If this package is merely there to block-in general detail, and get a mesh to a sculpted state minus extreme detail, then I think it's almost there. Unfortunately I also feel there are several other packages that do this exact same thing, maybe not the same way, nor as well as 3D-Coat, but Silo and Modo both have sculpting capabilities that mimic to a degree those that we're seeing in 3DCoat.

Sorry for my rant, I look forward to monitoring the exciting progress this application is making; I wouldn't have purchased it if I didn't think something amazing was being developed

I totally agree, especially about the extreme detailing needed in the final version of 3.0. For me that's one of the reason i'll buy it, 64-bit version and CUDA support would also aid in sculpting extremely detail mesh. I think Andrew intend to support those 2 request.

I just got my 64-bit computer parts, will put it together soon(bought it for Mudbox 2009, and hopefully 3DC 3.0):

Core2Quad Q9300 2.5 GHz

8GB RAM(16 GB max)

Nvidia GTX 260(216 SP)

my last computer was a very old P4 dual Xeon, with a very old Geforce 7600 GS..so this is a step up! Sorry for the shameless plug, im excited!

:lol:

[Crusoe]

I don't care about "Extreme levels" of detail sculpting. Voxels are more memory intensive, and Zbrush/Mudbox will always better at that. What voxels will provide is a quick way to bulk out a mesh to a moderate level of detail, which can then be retopo'd and detailed further with more conventional tools.

Voxels provide something that Zspheres, or Blobs, or anything else on the market can currently do.

[SonK]

I don't care about "Extreme levels" of detail sculpting. Voxels are more memory intensive, and Zbrush/Mudbox will always better at that. What voxels will provide is a quick way to bulk out a mesh to a moderate level of detail, which can then be retopo'd and detailed further with more conventional tools.

Voxels provide something that Zspheres, or Blobs, or anything else on the market can currently do.

You may not,but i and a few other see the need for it(maybe not in the alpha but in the final version). Sculpt with voxel with extremely high detail, retopologize(not a real word) to a conventional polygonal mesh and transfer all the detail to new mesh as normal map(for games) or displacement map(for film). As it stands even the current 2.10 isn't really good at pushing extremely detail mesh, id like to see that change with 3.0, otherwise i would not buy a copy of 3.0

As for it being memory intensive compare to traditional sculpting approach i wont know..since im not a programmer, however a 64-bit version of 3DCoat would resolve that issue.

[tree321]

Voxel sculpt.

Also coming from a traditional sculpting background (Bronzes) I like the freedom of volumetric sculpting.

[geo_n]

Voxel sculpt.

Also coming from a traditional sculpting background (Bronzes) I like the freedom of volumetric sculpting.

wow is that a 3dc sculpt?

[Juan Carlos Montes]

wow nice sculpt tree321

Here is my Cuve Character lol

and here is a Bug For andrew with the curve and undo

http://screencast.com/t/CvHuDLpI

[Crusoe]

I should say I am not againts hi res sculpting, just that it will be more difficult for Shpagin to implement it for pure voxels. One problem is that with Zbrush, it is very easy ( from a programmatic view ) to step down res levels, add more mass, and have it preserve the high res detail. So you can easily go back and add bulk to spots if needed.

Voxels work like clay. So if you need to add more mass, you will be adding it on top of the highly detailed area, just as if you had sculpted wrinkle detail on a head, and realized the nose needs to be bigger. Now I can think of a few ways you might be able to make it work somewhat, but it's not easy. Even if you took a 'snapshot' and then reprojected the detail onto the voxel model, you'll get aliasing of detail. A voxel model is divided up into cubes, and so that reprojected detail can potentially suffer aliasing. With a conventional poly model, they just stretch a lil bit all over. The fact Claytools, another voxel modeler, doesn't offer this ability makes me think it is difficult.

I think it will be possible to get to a very good medium level of detail though.

[philnolan3d]

Question here: When using On Pen the model is half way into the mesh. For example if I used the included head bust only from the chin or mouth up is visible, while the neck & shoulder disappear inside the main sculpture. Is there any way to get the entire head (or whatever object) to be visible when placed onto the mesh?

[3DArtist]

philnolan3d: have you tried the Shift X,Y,Z sliders?

[Crusoe]

When using the curve tool, and dragging the nodes, the 'links' tend to twist as you drag. I'd like for them to either not twist, or to provide a way to control the twist.

[Juan Carlos Montes]

Well I think this alpha is getting better and better, I know Andrew can optimize the performance to able to manage more details,

In this model i in cress the resolution 3 time.

i think we are getting closer.

.

[philnolan3d]

philnolan3d: have you tried the Shift X,Y,Z sliders?

Yes they don't seem to have any effect when switching to On Pen.

[tree321]

wow is that a 3dc sculpt?

yes Voxel

[3DArtist]

Well I think this alpha is getting better and better, I know Andrew can optimize the performance to able to manage more details,

In this model i in cress the resolution 3 time.

i think we are getting closer.

.

That looks impressive.

You inspired me to attempt a level 3 on my system, and i was pleasantly surprised when it actually worked. It was a little choppy but workable, even in symmetry.

[3DArtist]

I figure i should post my progress.

This is my first real sculpt from a sphere. It's always seemed a little intimidating to start from just a sphere, so i thought i would pick an animal with the closest resemblance.

A French Bulldog.

The tongue was modeled in Silo, and the eyes were sphere's but everything else is voxel sculpting.