Member SimonB Posted August 14, 2015 Member Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 here's my report why old 4.1 brush behavior is better in my opinion http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1994 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonB Posted August 16, 2015 Author Member Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Any reaction? here's video from my report fo easier access https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqRsQvD40RaS25qTnAyajJUbGM/view?usp=sharing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member metrons Posted August 22, 2015 Member Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 That's definitely considerably worse in 4.5. I don't know when I'd find that helpful to texture paint. I'm using substance painter at work atm. 4.1 is like substance. Live to have this in 4.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonB Posted August 23, 2015 Author Member Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 That's definitely considerably worse in 4.5. I don't know when I'd find that helpful to texture paint. I'm using substance painter at work atm. 4.1 is like substance. Live to have this in 4.5. Yes I've bought painter too but still haven't got much time to learn it deeper. Going to start soon. Cannot help but have this annoying feeling painting in 4.5 It's just not smooth as it was .. and it hangs me up ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 24, 2015 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Problem is, someone else complained to Andrew that the previous brush sensitivity level made it too hard to apply light strokes and blend them well with harder/darker strokes. The best solution is to go to EDIT > Preferences > Brushes > Increase Sensitivity. http://www.screencast.com/t/CjbqPx6sLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member kritskiy Posted August 24, 2015 Member Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Why wont you use Airbrush tool instead of Brush tool? It gradually gains thickness instead of painting by layers (like Brush tool) I personally think brush tool was broken in 4.1 and works properly in 4.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member metrons Posted August 24, 2015 Member Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Thanks kritskiy. That will work for me. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonB Posted August 28, 2015 Author Member Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Problem is, someone else complained to Andrew that the previous brush sensitivity level made it too hard to apply light strokes and blend them well with harder/darker strokes. The best solution is to go to EDIT > Preferences > Brushes > Increase Sensitivity. http://www.screencast.com/t/CjbqPx6sLC Thanks, I've already found this option. It actually makes brush more sensible but that's not the case Why wont you use Airbrush tool instead of Brush tool? It gradually gains thickness instead of painting by layers (like Brush tool) I personally think brush tool was broken in 4.1 and works properly in 4.5 Here's my experience with airbrush. Both 4.1 and 4.5 http://take.ms/y2Qeh https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqRsQvD40RaejFtYTdkNDFPR1k/view?usp=sharing I respect the opinion that someone likes new brush behavior. But what about those who worked with the old one for a long time, got used to it and have strong workflow? Pretend that new version works great for them when it is not? That's why my suggestion was to make it optional as checkbox in "Brush options" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Lucoat Posted August 30, 2015 Member Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 4.5 brush ugly as hell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 4.5 brush ugly as hell That's not helpful. Explain how, why etc.. If your want something changed say how you think it doesn't work and how you think it should work.Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 I like both the 4.1 and 4.5 brush tool, but yea it would be nice to have the option to switch between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 31, 2015 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Thanks, I've already found this option. It actually makes brush more sensible but that's not the case Here's my experience with airbrush. Both 4.1 and 4.5 http://take.ms/y2Qeh https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqRsQvD40RaejFtYTdkNDFPR1k/view?usp=sharing I respect the opinion that someone likes new brush behavior. But what about those who worked with the old one for a long time, got used to it and have strong workflow? Pretend that new version works great for them when it is not? That's why my suggestion was to make it optional as checkbox in "Brush options" Strange. When I increased the sensitivity to 2, it worked for me according to the way you said you wanted it to. The whole premise behind the change in the brush sensitivity in the first place, was because some users complained it was too hard to paint very light opacity values. Seems to me, that increasing the sensitivity in Preferences is basically the same thing as having the option to go back. It blends very nicely for me, and just a little bit of pressure gives nice dark opacity values. Hard to please everyone, I suppose. I wouldn't want to be in Andrew's shoes, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted August 31, 2015 Contributor Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Strange. When I increased the sensitivity to 2, it worked for me according to the way you said you wanted it to. The whole premise behind the change in the brush sensitivity in the first place, was because some users complained it was too hard to paint very light opacity values. Seems to me, that increasing the sensitivity in Preferences is basically the same thing as having the option to go back. It blends very nicely for me, and just a little bit of pressure gives nice dark opacity values. Hard to please everyone, I suppose. I wouldn't want to be in Andrew's shoes, for sure. It would be maddening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonB Posted August 31, 2015 Author Member Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Strange. When I increased the sensitivity to 2, it worked for me according to the way you said you wanted it to. The whole premise behind the change in the brush sensitivity in the first place, was because some users complained it was too hard to paint very light opacity values. Seems to me, that increasing the sensitivity in Preferences is basically the same thing as having the option to go back. It blends very nicely for me, and just a little bit of pressure gives nice dark opacity values. Hard to please everyone, I suppose. I wouldn't want to be in Andrew's shoes, for sure. Don't take it personal but I think you didn't get my point completely Better sensitivity is great but I was ok with sensitivity of 4.1 cause you could always setup opacity curves the way you want. Also if you set higher sensitivity preference and would then like to have very lite strokes it would be hard. More important change is the way brush stroke intersect with itself. I've attached picture from 3dcoat 4.5 features list. You see in 4.1 you could layer color by painting above existing stroke without the need of detaching your pen . So you can gradually gain color more and more without the need pressing stronger or detaching pen and painting above again. This small detail really means a lot especially when you do a lot of handpainting every day(or night ). Actually its airbrush behaviour but airbrush strangely noisy and buggy to me and I dont see any sense in having 2 tools when it could be a single one. In 4.5 intersections won't be visible. color changes only when you press your pen more. Lot's of pressing 8 hours a day isn't really fun. I've somehow got used to painting in 4.5 but it's definitely not so convenient and I would still prefer 4.1 style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yep. 4.5 = Color intensity cannot build upon itself in a single stroke and must be increased via multiple strokes or increased pen pressure. 4.1 = Color intensity can build upon itself in a single stroke without the need for additional strokes or excessive pen pressure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Actually, after some more testing, 4.5 does do buildup but clamps the result based on pen pressure. No wonder soft alphas tend to look more hard edged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonB Posted August 31, 2015 Author Member Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Actually, after some more testing, 4.5 does do buildup but clamps the result based on pen pressure. No wonder soft alphas tend to look more hard edged. Yeah I've discovered this too. I've got to make custom alpha with very very soft curve and make "spacing" higher to have softer edged brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 1, 2015 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Don't take it personal but I think you didn't get my point completely Better sensitivity is great but I was ok with sensitivity of 4.1 cause you could always setup opacity curves the way you want. Also if you set higher sensitivity preference and would then like to have very lite strokes it would be hard. More important change is the way brush stroke intersect with itself. I've attached picture from 3dcoat 4.5 features list. You see in 4.1 you could layer color by painting above existing stroke without the need of detaching your pen . So you can gradually gain color more and more without the need pressing stronger or detaching pen and painting above again. This small detail really means a lot especially when you do a lot of handpainting every day(or night ). Actually its airbrush behaviour but airbrush strangely noisy and buggy to me and I dont see any sense in having 2 tools when it could be a single one. In 4.5 intersections won't be visible. color changes only when you press your pen more. Lot's of pressing 8 hours a day isn't really fun. I've somehow got used to painting in 4.5 but it's definitely not so convenient and I would still prefer 4.1 style. What I understood from your original post was that essentially, it took way too much pressure on the stylus to add more opaque strokes. After some testing, and even recording the result, to show the before and after, I concurred that it did in fact require too much pressure. But, once I changed the brush sensitivity in the preferences panel (you could also change it in the wacom settings dialog, too), then that particular problem was resolved satisfactorily, on my end). You could see in the video I recorded and linked to, how it blended with light values much more quickly and with less effort. What I didn't understand is that the amount of pressure required isn't what you were dissatisfied with, after all. But something else. You want it to behave like the Airbrush, when that is not what it was designed for, nor how it works in Photoshop. Watch the video below and you'll see the comparison. Nevertheless, I don't see the flaw with using BRUSH PRESSURE to modulate BRUSH OPACITY, when that is precisely what the particular draw mode calls for....explicitly. This behaves more like what a physical brush does when you put brush to canvas. The Airbrush behaves just like a physical airbrush does, the more you pass over a given spot the more paint is applied and the higher the opacity value. Don't get me wrong. I'm not against Andrew adding an option that let's users such as yourself, go back to the previous 4.1 style. All I'm addressing are the comments here, that "it's busted and horrible," etc. It is NOT. I personally like the way it works now. With sensitivity increased in preferences it behaves more naturally, like what a user would expect. If you want it to build up, then you simply want to switch to the Airbrush. That's exactly what it does. The Paint Brush remains more of a pressure-based tool, and additional strokes will naturally add more opacity. Notice how the Paint Brush in 3D Coat works just like the Paint Brush in Photoshop: Airbrush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 1, 2015 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Here is the new brush engine in 4.5. It blends much more smoothly and makes it easier to paint with faint /light opacity values: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor TimmyZDesign Posted September 1, 2015 Contributor Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 In Photoshop there are actually 4 different settings to control brush behavior in this way. 1. Opacity 2. Flow 3. Tablet Pen Pressure Sensitivity 4. Airbrush Mode It seems to me that 3DC has settings for 1,3, and 4, but there is no setting for 2. In other words, the Flow setting is not available in 3D-Coat. Correct me if I am wrong, but where is the Flow setting in 3DC? In 3DC 4.1 it acted like high opacity (100%) and low flow (1%). In 3DC 4.5 it is the reverse and acts like low opacity (10%), high flow (100%). The following video describes the differences between all 4 settings, and how they can be combined: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 You want it to behave like the Airbrush, when that is not what it was designed for, nor how it works in Photoshop....If you want it to build up, then you simply want to switch to the Airbrush. Does anyone actually use the Airbrush in 3DC? I've never liked it because it has a wierd 'bleed' effect when doing buildup, creating rings of solid color surrounded by soft color. The 4.1 brush would make a better airbrush then the current airbrush imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted September 1, 2015 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Does anyone actually use the Airbrush in 3DC? I've never liked it because it has a wierd 'bleed' effect when doing buildup, creating rings of solid color surrounded by soft color. The 4.1 brush would make a better airbrush then the current airbrush imo. If you can record a short demonstration of what you find problematic, and email Andrew the link to it, I'm sure he'd respond with some changes/options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 New brush stroke intersection mode could be optional ? Hi!Generally yes. But can't do it right now.A bit later reminding would be helpful!Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonB Posted September 1, 2015 Author Member Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) You want it to behave like the Airbrush, when that is not what it was designed for, nor how it works in Photoshop. I don't know how well you know photoshop but you can setup "brush" almost any way you want including airbrushing mode. Here's only some quick options in addition to TimmyZDesign post https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqRsQvD40RaMmdTTmVVQkw3VnM/view?usp=sharing Previously airbrush was a separate tool in photoshop but they removed it and simply upgraded brush. I don't see the flaw with using BRUSH PRESSURE to modulate BRUSH OPACITY. All I'm addressing are the comments here, that "it's busted and horrible," etc. It is NOT. No one said that brush pressure should not modulate opacity because it's essential function. Brush in 4.1. also sensitive to pen pressure. Agree - this is not horrible - it's just different and can be used for different purposes. With sensitivity increased in preferences it behaves more naturally, like what a user would expect. If you want it to build up, then you simply want to switch to the Airbrush. That's exactly what it does. The Paint Brush remains more of a pressure-based tool, and additional strokes will naturally add more opacity. Different users expect different things. I wouldn't say for all of them. As PolyHertz said airbrush acts strange in both versions and hardly usable for smooth painting . You should have seen my link for airbrush testing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqRsQvD40RaejFtYTdkNDFPR1k/view?usp=sharing Overall as TimmyZDesign said current 3d coat 4.5 brush lacks flow and airbrush settings like it's done in photoshop Edited September 1, 2015 by SimonB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 15, 2016 Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 Andrew (administrator) The real source of problem is 8-bit/channel painting. So 32 bit/channel color painting is important to make painting not noisy. Even PS is noisy at 8 bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonB Posted August 15, 2016 Author Member Report Share Posted August 15, 2016 actually there is no noise problem with Brush tool it is Airbrush tool problem, but I would never use it if Brush tool has "flow" option to gradually add paint with light stroke. This is how Brush tool was done in 4.1 and worked pretty well. Then it was replaced by "Transparency" workflow. I assume both should be available. That's all as I know most 2d artists work in 8 bit in PS all the time and don't have problems with noise here's simple PS example http://take.ms/owno2 probably gradient not so smooth as it could be but still the result is acceptable. of course in 3d soft it could work differently.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ConceptViz Posted September 23, 2016 Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 I recently started studying 3D-Coat. At first I thought it was not right to customize the brushes. I was looking for the "Flow" as the opacity of the left terrible band. I began to Use AirBrush but strangely configured and leave "puddles". Will there be new versions of the parameter Flow with its control through a graphics tablet? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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