3D-Coat 3.0 ALPHA

[splodge]

To be honest I think it's really everything about it. For one, everything it too thick. The "sticks" should be a line, not a tube. The gear shape is another big part of what makes it looks like a toy. I really feel like the manipulator should do it's job while getting in the way as little as possible. That's one thing I hated about using Maya, the UM was constantly in the way and I actually caught myself moving my head, trying to look around it.

I agree, Phil. They're a little too toy like at the moment. But I also don't like the skinny pixelated lines of the 'merge mesh' tool. Maybe we can all compromise?

Let's say tubes and rings with 2-4 pixel width?. Deal?

[ldzywsj]

I'm not too crazy about the cube manipulator.

How about something a little more traditional like this one?:

It's similar to the merge mesh manipulator, but I don't like the skinny lines of the current version. I quite like the more solid look of the newer manipulators that's recently been added.

Might also be cool if it was possible to make the unselected parts of the manipulator hide while moving the object around. This would help with precise positioning.

I vote this manipaulator!

[run]

I do lean towards Phil's preference for the more traditional, industry standard one

but I'd be able to live with any of the manipulators in 3D-Coat.

I do have 2 minor issues with the style presented for feedback in Alpha 60.

1. I don't like that the 3D grid disappears when it's active.

2. When zoomed out the scaling boxes hide all the other controls making them impossible to pick.

(see attached image) This isn't a big issue for translation, since you can use the X,Y or Z keys

to lock movement on an axis with this manipulator, but it does make rotating impossible.

What I'd really like to have, with whatever gizmo is chosen, is the ability to save & load

numeric world space translation, rotation, and scaling data.

-Jeff

[philnolan3d]

I'm not too crazy about the cube manipulator.

How about something a little more traditional like this one?:

Still too thick for my liking. Also why do you need arrows going in both directions? This looks like it would block half of what I'm trying to see. Perhaps Andrew might find a way to add a slider in the options to control the thickness of the lines? The current Merge Mesh one is very much like what I'm used to in LightWave (even LW Core from the screenshots). Someone who uses maya might like to have it nice and thick so it hides the model from you. :P

[splodge]

Still too thick for my liking. Also why do you need arrows going in both directions?

Well when you spin around your model the arrows can end up on the other side of the manipulator. But it's not really important.

Thickness might not be a problem if the manipulator hides itself after you've selected a component of it.

I'm not so much against a skinny manipulator, but when you have lines that are only a pixel in width then they can tend to look a little rough. I suppose anti-aliasing would help.

and yep, it might be best to have an option to set the chunkiness of the manipulator. After all, some people have a super high res desktop and a single pixel width manipulator will be difficult to see.

[tree321]

I vote this manipaulator!

Which brings me back to this design.The problem with that one is I don"t like those rings.They get in the way.Otherwise it's pretty much this one.

Hey maybe Andrew can make each of us our own manipulators. :lol:

[philnolan3d]

What happened to the shader editing? I had a perfect opportunity to use that new opacity slider so i went into "Edit AShader Settins" and got this:

I don't know what to do with that. When I click "Choose Shader" the screen flashes and I get the message "Texture in Corresponding shader folder will be replaced with new one. Continue?" (yes/no buttons). I don't know what to do so I click No and a "open" dialog box opens. I don't want to open anything so I just close it. Very confused.

[cyartist]

This is the best Manipulator.

Visually Simple. Yet fully functional and easy to use.

Zbrush Interface and manipulators are horrible design wise.

3d Coat needs to get more cleaner and simpler visually or it is going to look like Zbrush.

[Andrew Shpagin]

What happened to the shader editing? I had a perfect opportunity to use that new opacity slider so i went into "Edit AShader Settins" and got this:

I don't know what to do with that. When I click "Choose Shader" the screen flashes and I get the message "Texture in Corresponding shader folder will be replaced with new one. Continue?" (yes/no buttons). I don't know what to do so I click No and a "open" dialog box opens. I don't want to open anything so I just close it. Very confused.

Maybe you have used Edit AShader Settins for PicMat shader that has no opacity slider. There is only possibility to choose texture. I will add opacity slider to every shader.

[Andrew Shpagin]

Really SOOOO hard to choose manipulator...

[wailingmonkey]

hey, I know that manipulator, cyartist.

(now if the nevercenter devs would make it so the manipulator could

always stay visible in the workspace based upon a checkbox preference...)

you should have left the yellow circle indicating screen-space rotation as well, since it's pretty handy too.

[haikalle]

Cyartist. I liked a lot your manipulator. Very elegant and simple. I would go for them. And also the picture about

manipulator that Phil send that's nice too.

[PalSan]

Variants Phil or Cyartist.

[Andrew Shpagin]

Variants Phil or Cyartist.

If understood right, Phil's variant is just remain current thin manipulator?

What about Cyartist's manipulator - where is scale in XY, YZ,ZX planes?

[philnolan3d]

If understood right, Phil's variant is just remain current thin manipulator?

Yes, I like the thin one that is used with Merge / Transform, though hopefully ith the option to move it without moving the object, like moving a pivot point.

[PalSan]

It agree is not. Universal - Phil. From the point of view of simplicity, convenience and ease of perception - cyartist. The difference is minimum - additional scaling on the necessary axis.(At point instructions pivot.)

Согласен нету. универсальный - Phil. с точки зрения простоты, удобства и легкости восприятия - cyartist. разница минимальна - дополнительное масштабирование по нужной оси.(при указании точки пивота).

п.с. написал что я имею ввиду, на русском чтобы было понятно. надо учить язык)

[haikalle]

What about Cyartist's manipulator - where is scale in XY, YZ,ZX planes?

I don't need those so much. If there is "XYZ" scale and then separate X, Y, and Z scale it work

just fine. for me at least.

[3dioot]

Actually i think one solution is clearly the best. (and on second thought is not; see next post below (grin))

The major problem is that your trying to put too much stuff on the manipulator. If you want to make a shape for every conceivable transform possible it will never be smooth or clean.

Philnolan's manipulator (i think its old 3dcoats one) is really good in that it can do ALOT of stuff without getting messy.

Position and scale are perfect and dont need explaining.

Rotation is elegant solution with the open circles. They dont obstruct view but still give some space from the center of the axis so they feel smooth when you start clicking on them.

Nothing new here but it works really really well.

The uniform transforms are really smartly solved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Little cube in the white circle being uniform scale.

Inside the white circle screen space moving (transform). Which is really super smart.

And the white circle itself as screen rotation.

- As i test it i see im not completely right.

But above is how i would like it to work. Currently screen rotation is a grey circle among the "clean" ones and i always have trouble picking it out from the others often picking screen rotation when i want a clean axis and vice versa. As i wrote above i love the uniform move and transform in the middle of the gizmo where they make the most sense. So essentially only thing im asking changed is that the screen rotation circle becomes the white circle in the middle while screen move still happens inside the white circle (just no longer when you click on the edge of it).

What is missing? (as Andrew said)

-----------------------------------------------

The only thing missing is scale and transform over a plane. Id like to propose something "proposperous" (which i think tree or someone else allready mentioned in another thread).

Instead of adding garbage to this clean manipulator make it so that holding SHIFT and clicking any of the one axis transforms (except rotation ofcourse which does not need it) makes that transform work on the plane PERPENDICULAR to its axis.

In other words if you hold shift and press the move arrow for the X-axis you will start moving in the yz plane (just edited out an error here; sorry). It works like the handle on a workes tool in this case. Im certain this will be VERY smooth to work with.

Other things

--------------------

I agree with the toy look. I despise it. Clean and simple lines and simplistic gizmo elements are the way to go. Mouse over highlighting has to be in there. And if you hold shift and mouse over the gizmo the corresponding plane should light up. NOTE that when you start transforming this plane dissapears again so it doesnt block your view. Its just a helper aid.

Also gizmo size should be fixed to screenspace and not based on primitive or model (ofcourse you can set the size in options). Let alone that it will deform along with the transforms. Thats a really bad way to go about it.

Gizmo orientation. There should be a toggle in the transform "rollout" (or whatever the menu is called that opens on the left) so you can choose world space or object space. This is really important and needs to be in there. It means that when you have a log of wood and you rotate it you will still be able to thin it out scaling it over the plane perpendicular to its length axis. If you only have worldspace to work from you cant. However you need to be able to toggle this because sometimes you need the one space and sometimes you need the other space.

Gizmo placement. A few people have requested the gizmo should be able to be placed anywhere. I agree (although i dont need it much atm). I dont know a smooth solution for that one but for the time being a toggle could be created in the menu. If its on your moving the gizmo with the usual gizmo controls. If its off your transforming the model like you usually do.

Cheers!

JW

[3dioot]

Additional idea.

After spending some time thinking about the modifier key solution i noticed a problem.

Its not that it doesnt work but it may not fit with how you usually do transforms. As you move over a plane you normally rotate your view to be more or less perpendicular to that plane so you can clearly judge what your doing. This means that the axis you have to click on will be directly facing you. This means that 1) you get a really small area to click on 2) essentialy the move symbol will be obscuring the scale one. Now this isnt braking the entire idea since you will almost never face the gizmo straight on but still...

I whipped up something else that uses plane manipulators as they are (sort of) used in 3dsmax. Only slightly tweaked. Since move is on the outside of the gizmo followed by scale i decided to dedicate the outer diagional half to move and the inner diagonal half to scale. This plane manipulators are easy to click on from a wide range of viewing angles and they dont obscure the model since they are only slightly bigger the usual gizmo elements (roughly the size of move and scale combined) and semitransparant.

Now that ive thought about it some more im essentially in favor of this method. Also i dug around and found an old version of 3dcoat so i could double check the workings of this "old" gizmo. Turns out the outer white circle is screenspace rotation. I must have been thinking about another program when i thought the grey circle was screenspace (maybe max i dont know). So essentially the whole gizmo is dandy except its missing plane manipulators which are divided for move and scale appropriately.

Chiao

JW

[manne3d]

my first post here...been dwelling in the dark for to long

i think the biggest problem with manipulators is not the look, but the lack of control. the merge manipulator is good and simple, but there is no control. maybe i missed something but here is the problem in my view.

1. no control, you move something or rotate it...but how much? give us a channel box for every transform that updates the values, so we know exactly where stuff is in world space.

2. local object space transforms...i cant find out how to switch to local space. would be nice with a little switch button on the manipulator

3. easy snapping like maya (hold "v" for snapping to vert...drag only x arrow in combo with "v" for constrained snapping in x only to nerest vert, "x" for snap to grid "c" for curve.

4. easy move pivot like maya "d" key

i have to say i have not used 3d coat in a while now so maybe some of this things is already in there. if so i am sorry

i think curves have the same problem...inconsistency. retopocurves look one way, some curves have big red balls, some have manipulator some do not. i think get rid of the BIG red balls and make normal balls or squares for CV selection only(not scaling)...and use manipulators for scaling and translating

BTW keep up the good work!

looking forward to the paint on lowpoly stuff!

[GED]

I agree with Phil and I like this one most

[Pimpmymonkey]

my first post here...been dwelling in the dark for to long

i think the biggest problem with manipulators is not the look, but the lack of control. the merge manipulator is good and simple, but there is no control. maybe i missed something but here is the problem in my view.

1. no control, you move something or rotate it...but how much? give us a channel box for every transform that updates the values, so we know exactly where stuff is in world space.

2. local object space transforms...i cant find out how to switch to local space. would be nice with a little switch button on the manipulator

3. easy snapping like maya (hold "v" for snapping to vert...drag only x arrow in combo with "v" for constrained snapping in x only to nerest vert, "x" for snap to grid "c" for curve.

4. easy move pivot like maya "d" key

i have to say i have not used 3d coat in a while now so maybe some of this things is already in there. if so i am sorry

i think curves have the same problem...inconsistency. retopocurves look one way, some curves have big red balls, some have manipulator some do not. i think get rid of the BIG red balls and make normal balls or squares for CV selection only(not scaling)...and use manipulators for scaling and translating

BTW keep up the good work!

looking forward to the paint on lowpoly stuff!

QFA I can not agree more!

Welcome manne3d. Excellent first post.

P. Monk

[Pimpmymonkey]

I agree with Phil and I like this one most

+1 Everyone knows this manipulator.....The only problem that I have with it is universal scaling in orthographic view and possibly

the thickness of the rotation circles....if you are zoomed out they can be difficult to grab.

P. Monk

[splodge]

This is the best Manipulator.

Visually Simple. Yet fully functional and easy to use.

I would be happy with that one. Although the rotational components are a little strange, it's a good compromise.

[splodge]

I'd definitely be happy with this one if the lines were a little thicker and the white circles were removed. I've never had the need to rotate in screen space.

Perhaps we should line up all the different variations and have a vote?

[Psmith]

A Manipulator That is Hardly There

I agree with those who think the manipulator should be barely visible so that it does not hide what you are manipulating. Personally I prefer transforming things "the Blender Way", by just using a single keyboard key and then executing the transform. I heartily hope that this will become, at least, an option. Also, the rotation "rings" have always bothered me and are usually far too large. Rotation "fins", placed way out at the end of each axis obscure things the least. Also, the axis "rods" should be as thin as they can be and still be visible, not thick, like Tinkertoys. If the manipulator is made translucent, it becomes even less of a problem and does not interfere with the what is being transformed. It also looks better when it is translucent. Lots of interface items looks better when they are translucent, in my opinion.

Psmith

[tree321]

Is there a way to maintain ALL specular highlights in the scene?The only object that retain there highlights is the one Voxtree object that is selected.It would be nice to be able to click on the root directory and have all selected.Or select each Item while holding control key.Also rendering doesn't seem to preserve the quality of the view port.

Edit:Another problem I'm having is with seeing all shaders in Voxtree.If you have numerous shaders they get cropped out and if I move Voxtree to top of screen they disappear.

Also included is my latest design for new manipulator.It's the third image here.(You may have to squint to see it.)

[philnolan3d]

Its not that it doesnt work but it may not fit with how you usually do transforms. As you move over a plane you normally rotate your view to be more or less perpendicular to that plane so you can clearly judge what your doing. This means that the axis you have to click on will be directly facing you. This means that 1) you get a really small area to click on 2) essentialy the move symbol will be obscuring the scale one. Now this isnt braking the entire idea since you will almost never face the gizmo straight on but still...

You have a point here. I have noticed that if I'm in orthographic mode with the camera on Left (for example) it's impossible to scale uniformly, you'll grab the X scale handle instead every time.

I'd definitely be happy with this one if the lines were a little thicker and the white circles were removed. I've never had the need to rotate in screen space.

You may not need the white circle but I can see a use for it and I'll bet others can as well. When working in LightWave I find myself using screen based rotation all the time. Now the black circle, I have no idea what it's for. It doesn't seem to do anything.

[wailingmonkey]

Well, my vote is for the Silo-esque manipulator. I've done up a version as an object (attached)

if it's of any use (seperate sub-objects with colored materials assigned). If a hotkey ('shift') is used for

constraining, then the manipulator on the right would become visible.

I agree that screen-space rotation is handy and should be kept...option to turn on/off for those

that don't want/need it would be good.

manipulator.zip

[3dioot]

@wm

I think it looks beautifull but its not really complete. Also i dont like that screenspace circle that far out.. I feel anything screen transforms should be centered or close to the center.

Im missing screen move? (yes its important i use it all the time)

Im also not certain wether i like the random plane assignments. But as long as its very clear what axis represents what plane i guess its allright. (for example the flap for scale on x-axis in the alt version could be xy as well as xz)

If a few things get changed/added im all for it.

I want screen rotate, screen move and uniform scale to be available always. This can easily be solved by using the method of the old 3dcoat manip. Just have the center cube be uniform scale, have a white circle around it (not too big), as long as you click inside the circle but not on the center cube its screen move, when you click on the circle its screen rotate. This will not make the gizmo visually complicated it will just add a small white circle that you can see in philnolan's screenshot.

The alt gizmo (for planar movement) i like with this change. The move arrows should be in the same flattened style as the flattened scale cubes for clarity. For the rest everything stays the same. Rotate symbols stay the same (they will have the same function as in the normal gizmo) and the center cube still does uniform scale, inside the white circle screen move, and on the white circle screen rotate.

I think well have a sweet gizmo then.

GrtZ

JW

PS

Yes it would be nice if the people that dont like any screen transforms could toggle the white circle off (which would remove screen move and screen rotate in one go)

PS2

lol at tree

If your worried about visibility perhaps its a good idea to ask andrew for an additional setting? I hope Andrew listens and creates a fixed screensize gizmo whose size can be altered. If he adds an additional option for gizmo axis thickness (which i think should still be one color and NOT a shaded cylinder as it is now (again toy argument here)) you can make the gizmo as big and visual as you like.