Is 3DCoat "only" a basemesh solution for some users?

[Taros]

Hello.

After working some time with 3D Coat 3 I think, the program is definitely the future of skulpting on the pc. But I know also, this program is a "ressource glutton", too.

Why I saying that? Because currently I reach my system borders much earlier then with other applications. I mean: I have a 32 bit system, a core2duo processor, 3 gbytes of ram and Windows XP Pro. My workstation gives me anough power to paint hudge images in 2D applications like photoshop, skulpt fine detailed objects in zBrush or render high resolution print images in softimage.

But in 3D Coat it is a question of relative short time and my system borders are reached and the work on a demanding project, ends too. This fact makes me a little bit frustrated. Ok, maybe this is the sign that says: "It is time, to buy a new hardware." But why?

On the other hand: Why not use 3DC as a basemesh application for tools like zBrush oder mudbox? My friend already do it. And he likes 3DC very much, because it gives him new unknown freedom in skulting. But he says too: He never thought about the point to use 3DC to finish his models, in the program itself. From the beginning 3DC was a "basemesh solution" for him. The implementation of quadrangulation gives the perfect possibility to use 3DC results as basemeshes in zBrush or mudbox. There are sevaral arguments for doing this:

1. One of the most important argument: The brushes are still much better than in 3DCoat.

2. The models can be very detailed, with much less memory, than in 3DC.

3. One more very important and interesting point:

Generally working with voxels on details, espacially intersecting parts, like a fist or face expressions makes history states impossible.

For example: Currently, voxel skulpting makes it impossible to experiment with charakter/object-poses and this fact is a big restriction compared to skulpting tools like zbrush or mudbox. When I am not pleased with a pose in 3DC, then I have a problem. No possibility to move a arm into a new position, when it intersects with the model.

These are only some interesting questions and points for working with voxels.

Finally, what I can say for me: I am seriously thinking to buy a zBrush license in addition to 3DCoat. The reason ist easy: It is much cheaper for me, to buy zBrush and finish my ideas on the highest level, than to buy a completely new pc.

I would like to know your opinion to my thoughts. And maybe you have some interesting arguments, why 3DC can or can't stay in competition to the industry standard skulpting applications?

Believe me, I love 3DC, but I see problems in my daily work, too.

Regards from germany

Chris

[Ghostdog]

Hey Taros. I can't say I personally understand your friends reasons to use 3DCoat -> Z-brush as I don't own Zbrush.

I do however own several other 'tools' in my 3d software suite & my perspective towards them all is simply that they are just tools. I don't quite understand how common it can be that users of software get that level of fan-boi attachment to their software that they feel the need to debate or argue one program over another.

I think if you can afford both Zbrush & 3DCoat and both work on your current system them you should try & use both. Depending on your system age it could be a case of 'sooner rather than later' on a hardware upgrade. I own a 2yr old laptop that is also getting rather hammered by 3dCoat at times so I have my pc shopping-list already completed.

Remember that upgrading the system should get benefits for all software used on that new system.

[Taros]

@Ghostdog:

Yes, I am shure you are right. "Why not use the software, that you need? They are all tools."

I don't wanted to appear like a "3DC fanboy", when I say "I love 3DC". Maybe it was more like a "wish list" or a description of points in 3DC, that disturbs me, currently.

Thank you for the statement.

Be creative

Chris

[geo_n]

What is your end product at work?

I think 3dc voxel converted to mesh>scultp>paint> export normal and displacement maps> render in 3d app is ideal workflow for studios.

If you are looking to finish work for still then zbrush is your choice. There's millions of zbrush works like that. The extreme detail in zbrush looks really good within zbrush. Posed and sculpted to perfection. But you can't use that perfect detail outside....yet. You still have to export textures from zbrush anyway so you lose detail.

The argument between buying zbrush or new hardware for me the winner is hardware. I wouldn't want to use core2duo with only 3gig just to accomodate zbrush. All my other appz would benefit more with 64bit cpu with more memory and generally faster system. I can't imagine heavy scenes running in 32bit 3dmax or lw without getting nervous my app will crash.

[ldzywsj]

2. The models can be very detailed, with much less memory, than in 3DC.

I second this!

[Taros]

... I can't imagine heavy scenes running in 32bit 3dmax or lw without getting nervous my app will crash.

My system display and renders scenes in softimage with far more then 10.000.000 polys without any problems.

Will answer later with more detail, I'am on the go.

Regards

Chris

[geo_n]

My system display and renders scenes in softimage with far more then 10.000.000 polys without any problems.

Will answer later with more detail, I'am on the go.

Regards

Chris

100000o polys or instanced geometry? Are we talking the modo way of counting polys? Lol!

I think I can squeeze 3m real poly from max and 1 m real poly in lw in 32bit. But if you're using lots of texture and rendering a sequence with lots of shadowmaps 3dmax will crash in 32bit. lw won't even load a 4k texture The export tga tiff from 3dc I size down before its useable in lw. There's a lot of loss in detail in the process.

[Taros]

100000o polys or instanced geometry? Are we talking the modo way of counting polys? Lol!

I think I can squeeze 3m real poly from max and 1 m real poly in lw in 32bit. But if you're using lots of texture and rendering a sequence with lots of shadowmaps 3dmax will crash in 32bit. lw won't even load a 4k texture The export tga tiff from 3dc I size down before its useable in lw. There's a lot of loss in detail in the process.

I think, this is the wrong place to compare 3d applications. And I have the feeling you never really worked with softimage, right?

Let come back to the topic. Thank you.

[rimasson]

I'm working on animated features, and in my current workflow, when i'm sculpting a character's head, i NEED to keep the same base mesh, in order to re-use blendshapes or animation rigs.

3DC is great for concepts, or single creature, but i still need Zbrush.

[3dioot]

The truth is 3dcoat voxel sculpting can be alot better.

The technology has a lot of potential. But potential only means something when it gets fulfilled.

Without going into an entire list of reasons, this will not happen.

You have been able to witness yourself how "posing" got "fixed".

Lately i have been getting the feeling i have been wasting my time and money on this application. Despite the best promises and intent i am not seeing the development on voxel sculpting that is required to get rid of its child diseases let alone become as good for digital sculpting as the alternatives zb or mb.

Zbrush is well and truly above 3dcoat in digital sculpting. Its fast and efficient with the technology it uses. 3dcoat is not fast and efficient with the technology it uses.

Technology means nothing when its ill implemented. I refer to pose again but i can assure you thats not an isolated case. The requests i repeate every time are just the tip of the iceberg because i do not want to drown Andrew. But the truth is that after those get implemented (which it seems will never happen) there is a whole list of other things that need to be fixed just to come to a comparable level to whats out there. With the incoming price increase this puts 3dcoat in a very tough spot.

If you want to sculpt digitally spend your money on zbrush and use 3dcoat for retopo and for painting and for a basecage or two if you feel like it. Currently 3dcoat's own sculpting simply is not good enough and i dont see that changing any time soon (if ever).

3dioot

[geo_n]

I think, this is the wrong place to compare 3d applications. And I have the feeling you never really worked with softimage, right?

Let come back to the topic. Thank you.

Nope I haven't used xsi. That's why I asked if its real 1000000poly or the way modo counts polys which is uh different. Anyway you brought it up how xsi can do it in 32bit. That's why I said max and lw suck for 32bit.

In any case surely xsi AND 3dc will benefit from 64bit system as well as your other appz. A new system like that will cost cheaper than any autodesk software with OR without subcription anyway. Buy zbrush or buy a new system as I said for me I'd rather boost performance for all. Maybe your focus is getting super highres character stills which I think zbrush has the edge. The zbrushcentral gallery is full of them.

[geo_n]

If you want to sculpt digitally spend your money on zbrush and use 3dcoat for retopo and for painting and for a basecage or two if you feel like it. Currently 3dcoat's own sculpting simply is not good enough and i dont see that changing any time soon (if ever).

3dioot

Please show your sculpt in zbrush that you can't do in 3dc. I am curious how different your end products are in zbrush and 3dc. I've seen very good sculpt here using voxels that are good enough to compare to zbrush sculpts. But I think only a few people have utilized 3dc potential and their work shows it like Mr.tree21. 3dc 3.0 is still young less than a year old. The quantity of good experienced sculptors using zbrush far outnumber any other sculpting software. so you see more quality in zbrushcentral.

At my level it doesn't make a difference how superior zbrush is since I can't utilize it for myself....yet. We'll see if I logged 1000hours in it then I can say it truly sucks compared to zbrush. Lol!

There's also familiarity with the software. A veteran of zbrush might not produce the same quality of work in mudbox and vice versa. Oddity is pro mudbox I believe. If you haven't heard of him he has a training video for mudbox coming out I think. He probably logged 10000 hours on mudbox. Its never easy.

The zbrush timelapse videos are misleading. It takes many hours to make those sculpts....which is good for hobbyist with all the time in the world.

[Taros]

... Maybe your focus is getting super highres character stills which I think zbrush has the edge. The zbrushcentral gallery is full of them.

Yes, this is true.

[3dioot]

@ geo_n

How good an application is is not defined by what is in its gallery. Renderdemon made a fantastic sculpt during the alpha. A beautiful non symmetrically posed humanoid character which for me is still the most beautiful sculpt ive seen on this forum (subject to my own taste and preference off course). This was with cruder tools then there are now and with less performance. Now i ask you. Is that a testamen to how great a sculptor Renderdemon is or how good 3dcoat was at the time?

When someone makes a great pencil drawing do you think to yourself "wow, that pencil must be awesome"? There are plenty of sculpts here that are fantastic. If you would take the time to read the comments from the artist who made them you would be able to see they are not satisfied with the tools despite the results they were able to achieve.

This has very little to do with familiarity of the software. Sculpting tools really, really, arent that hard to learn. If its hard its because the program is not friendly, or unfinished. Or both.

You need 1000 hours to be able to compare 3dcoat to zbrush? I say thats a bollocks statement.

As far as mb or zb. I refer to them interchangeably (which is not really correct but for the sake of arguing serves the purpose of simplicity). Either way; 3dcoat is so far removed from them both its not funny. There is an area where preference becomes a matter of taste. When features and performance come so close that for certain uses the applications can be used interchangeably. 3dcoat is not there yet to do that with zb or mb.

The hobbyist remark surprises me. From what perspective did you write that? From the perspective of the hobbyist that cant see the difference between 3dcoat and zb/mb and bases the quality of an application by the work in the gallery?

3dioot

[Taros]

I am so kind and post the link to the model of Renderdemon -> His model.

There is nothing to add to 3dioots post.

[philnolan3d]

Taros you didn't mention what kind of video card you have. ZB and MB work mainly with the CPU, but 3DC works like a video game so the video card gets used a lot more than it would with the other two.

[artman]

First ,if I were you I would switch to a x64 windows.

Then I would add at least 1gb of ram.(cheap and easy)

Because even if you buy Zbrush,with a 32bit os and 3gb ram you won't be able to go above 12mil-14-mil (per subtool)

(which means you will need to chop your Windrunner in parts in order to reach a high level of details)

that is of course,if you don't use HD geometry ,that would allow you to reach 50mil polys with your current system

(but HDgeo is only good for illustration work,you cannot get a displacement map from it so you cannot use it for animation in external package)

[geo_n]

@ geo_n

Actually the question was directed at you. You must raise skills first on your own before you reach the barrier that others have with 3dc. Blaiming the tools too much and complaining the most about how 3dc is not good enough for sculpting. It doesn't sound logical for a beginner. I'm included in that group.

The question about renderdemon I would answer yes It is really good and its made in 3dc and that's the testament to how good sculpting in 3dc can already be at this early stage. Thank you for pointing that out and if I get to that level it would not be a question of 3dc software but of skills.

3dc can do that now which was my point that it is possible to do good work in 3dc and you complaining and saying that you have been wasting your time and money with this application won't make you a good artist and even if you try to do it in zbrush could you do it now? Its as if you think you can do better work as good as renderdemon if you use zbrush rather the 3dc.

If sculpting tools are not hard to learn then why are so many zbrush users complaining that zbrush workflow is not intuitive and not using it for weeks it takes hard to get into again? And yeah I'm sure time spent on the software has nothing to do with getting good at something, If you say so. 1000 hours of practice must be wasted on athletes as well. I am willing to invest 1000 hours for 3dc when it allows.

The hobbyist remark is directed at the thousands of zbrush warez users who can take weeks sculpting the perfect monster. More time spent can equate to better work. Its not directed at you but related to how much difference the number of skilled sculptors are in zbrush than any other app.

Taros - thank you for pointing out that thread. I have something to look forward to with 3dc even more.

i would consider what artman said about x64. You might encounter a bottleneck with zbrush as well with your system so it might be time to upgrade.

[3dioot]

I know the question was directed at me. I just like to call people by their names when i write directly to them.

In regards to raising skills. This is not unique to 3dcoat. You make the same mistake again later on in your reply in regards to your 1000 hours statement. If you spend 1000 hours on a digital sculpting application i really hope for you that 99% of that time is spend on learning how to create better sculpts, better art then at learning the program. Creating better sculpts is not limited to the 3dcoat. Digital sculpting is a medium and 3dcoat is not unique in offering that medium. Just like you can have different brushes when you paint. You are still painting. Its not strange to compare different paints or different brushes if you are a painter. Then why are you acting like its a sin to do that here? In fact, you could say that someone who is good at painting with a certain paint or set of brushes may be able to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of another set of brushes or type of paint a bit sooner then someone who steps into it fresh (as you are suggesting you are doing). The interesting thing is that this is actually good. Because through their experience they will also be able to make more of the new offerings. You can clearly see this with the high level work on the forum. Those are not from people who are new to (digital) sculpting.

As for your second paragraph on renderdemon's sculpt. Since it seems you have trouble to understand what i write ill simplify it for you. A good enough artist can make fantastic works in any medium with any tool when he sets his mind to it. You disregard every other thing i wrote alongside it. I refer specifically to that artists opinion on 3dcoat yet you manage to completely leave that out of your reply. Coincidence? Or are you leaving out the context on purpose. I think its the latter.

Your assumption on my thoughts is so ridiculous im not even going to bother to reply to that.

Zbrush has many clumsy aspects to its interface. Its well known its interface is not its strong point. Still i had no problem learning it. Ill give you points for your first reasonable argument though. Do you think mudbox is hard to learn as well? What about your personal experience? Have you worked with either of them?

1000 hours. Do you honestly want me to take that comment of yours seriously? As i said above i hope you spend that time learning how to be better at sculpting (and painting if that is your thing) and i hope you do that in medium which allows you to progress as fast as possible and leaves you with final works of art that are worthy of the time and effort you spend on them. Wether thats 3dcoat or not for you is entirely up to you. If your new to this i'd recommend you to look around first and spend some good time in discovering what other options are available to you.

As for the hobbyist remark. As i said before a gallery doesnt prove the worthiness of an app eventhough it can be a good indication. Something that does tend to influence me is great artists using certain applications. The fact they choose to put their skills through a certain application is, most of the time, a good indication of how powerfull and/or userfriendly an application is.

As for the general direction of this discussion. You said multiple times you are "new", a "beginner" and so on. If you truly are and are convinced 3dcoat is the holy grail for you then i suggest you start putting in those "1000 hours" and start improving your art. I think thats much more useful to you then trying to defend an app with a bunch of useless arguments.

3dioot

[Taros]

Taros you didn't mention what kind of video card you have. ZB and MB work mainly with the CPU, but 3DC works like a video game so the video card gets used a lot more than it would with the other two.

Thank you for the remind, but I know the application-techniques. I am using a GeForce 8800GTS with 512MB Ram and I know, that zbrush is using the cpu to display and calculate the polygons. Graphiccards are one of the bottlenecks of applications like 3DC and mudbox.

My result for now:

I've planned to buy a new system, already some time ago. My "old workstation" is "already" 2 1/2 years old. I plan the update for my work, and not only for 3DC alone. I will update to a 64 bit system, because the tools, I am working with, offers a much better workflow and the possibility to use more ram speaks for itself. 3DC was one more argument for my decision.

The reason to start this thread, was not to start a description, why and when somebody is possible to create good artwork, and not to attest that it is the artist and not the tool, that makes phantastic work. Everyone, who seriously creates art should know this...

The reason is more the personal insight, that I need more than only 3DC to finish my work. Yees, I know that you need more than one application to realize good work mostly - I do it every day. But I like it to work in one program as long as it is possible and I am happy to stay in one solution. To switch between several tools is uncomfortable. I hoped, I can stay completely in 3DC and realise my sculpting ideas. But I think, this time will come. And in the meantime I will do it in parts, one by one.

But I can say, I like the discussion in this thread.

Regards

Chris

PS: Sorry for my bad english... hope everyone know what I mean.

[Ondrej Svadlena]

"Is 3DCoat "only" a basemesh solution for some users?, A discussion"

Hey there,

to be more specific, I mostly work on my animated short films and commercials. Since the early Vox3 alphas, I've been using 3DC quite extensively to create models that would have taken me ages to model in any other software. I find the voxels are great to create complex scenery for example. In the last months I've also modeled around 30 characters for my film using 3DC. In fact I stopped using ZBrush since alpha0 came out. For now, the amount of detail I can sculpt in 3DC is more than sufficient for my film (full HD).

I'm slowly getting tired of people comparing 3DC to ZBrush/Mudbox. The latter two handle surfaces. 3DC Vox3 handles volumes. I would guess volumes are more resource-hungry than surfaces (?). Has anyone used or tested Sensable's "ClayTools". I would love to hear how that compares to 3DC's voxel sculpting.

Ondrej

[3dioot]

Its not about the fact that voxels are more resource heavy. I think its performance is managable but i also think that right now not enough is done to minimize the negative effect it can have.

As for saying you are getting tired of people comparing 3dcoat to zb and mb; Taros asked a question. I gave him an answer based on my opinion.

Is your opinion that 3dcoat is just as good as or better for him for high detailed digital sculpting then zb/mb?

3dioot

PS

I never would have thought your alien head was in fact an ambulance until i watched your short. Im sorry to say i failed to understand what was going on but i found it very interesting and beautiful to look at nonetheless.

[Ondrej Svadlena]

As I wrote, I just guess voxels/volumes are more resource-hungry than surfaces. That's why I think it would be intersting to see how 3DC's voxels compare to ClayTool's voxels.

As for saying you are getting tired of people comparing 3dcoat to zb and mb; Taros asked a question. I gave him an answer based on my opinion.

Is your opinion that 3dcoat is just as good as or better for him for high detailed digital sculpting then zb/mb?

No probably not. Looking at Taros's work, I'd say he would be better off with zb/mb for the detailing part.

PS. I'm happy you liked my short. The next one will be a lot darker. I hope I'll be able to finish it before winter

[cuffins]

Taros you didn't mention what kind of video card you have. ZB and MB work mainly with the CPU, but 3DC works like a video game so the video card gets used a lot more than it would with the other two.

Thank you for the remind, but I know the application-techniques. I am using a GeForce 8800GTS with 512MB Ram and I know, that zbrush is using the cpu to display and calculate the polygons. Graphiccards are one of the bottlenecks of applications like 3DC and mudbox.

Did you ever check CPU load while working in 3d-Coat? If not, you should do...There is 50% while I'm hovering over surface with a brush only. While painting it tends to 90%. Maybe CPU plays a bigger role as suspected.

I have the same system like Taros except WIN64 and 8 GB of RAM, CUDA enabled.

@Taros

Maybe changing CPU is a better choice...I will put a Quadcore in my PC soon...will tell you what happens...

greez, Rene

[Taros]

Did you ever check CPU load while working in 3d-Coat? If not, you should do...There is 50% while I'm hovering over surface with a brush only. While painting it tends to 90%. Maybe CPU plays a bigger role as suspected.

I have the same system like Taros except WIN64 and 8 GB of RAM, CUDA enabled.

@Taros

Maybe changing CPU is a better choice...I will put a Quadcore in my PC soon...will tell you what happens...

greez, Rene

CPU change: Right, but I don't know, if this is possible. I should check the technical info. This is one possibility. But the point is, overall I am very happy with the modeling speed, so far. I must wait till end of the year, then I will see how much money I will have, buttom the line...

[cuffins]

If you running a Core2Duo CPU it's definitely possible to upgrade to a QuadCore. You have to buy a Q6700 CPU which has a 775 socket. It cost's around 150 Euros. If you'll decide to do so, you have to buy it fast. Intel no longer produces this CPU and the amount of available ones is shrinking constantly...

btw: did you know that your 8800GTS can be soft modded to a Quadro FX4600?

greez, Rene

[Taros]

If you running a Core2Duo CPU it's definitely possible to upgrade to a QuadCore. You have to buy a Q6700 CPU which has a 775 socket. It cost's around 150 Euros. If you'll decide to do so, you have to buy it fast. Intel no longer produces this CPU and the amount of available ones is shrinking constantly...

btw: did you know that your 8800GTS can be soft modded to a Quadro FX4600?

greez, Rene

I've send you a PM...

[Andrew Shpagin]

Lately i have been getting the feeling i have been wasting my time and money on this application. Despite the best promises and intent i am not seeing the development on voxel sculpting that is required to get rid of its child diseases let alone become as good for digital sculpting as the alternatives zb or mb.

Excuse.

But really I noted your requestы and looking forward to implement them. It was not done just because I am trying to make stable version now to post on official page too. So last week I am making only changes that are relatively safe and not touch something too complex. Btw, voxel hide is one of the next features to be implemented (actually I already started it, but not finished, so it is in hidden state).

Also, I am working as much as I can and even more. But I physically can't do all. So I expect more understanding. More friendly style is very appreciated.

[Taros]

Excuse.

But really I noted your request and looking forward to implement them. It was not done just because I am trying to make stable version now to post on official page too. So last week I am making only changes that are relatively safe and not touch something too complex. Btw, voxel hide is one of the next features to be implemented (actually I already started it, but not finished, so it is in hidden state).

Also, I am working as much as I can and even more. But I physically can't do all. So I expect more understanding. More friendly style is very appreciated.

Andrew, you don't need to explain yourself. 3DC is not a really expansive tool, compared with other applications. 3DCoats developement is in early phase, in my eyes and the tool is very promising for me. We must see, zBrush have a much longer developement behind it and mudbox a lot of developement money, because of the film industry. And in compare to this tools, 3DC is already on a very high level.

My two cents

Chris

[cuffins]

Andrew, you don't need to explain yourself. 3DC is not a really expansive tool, compared with other applications. 3DCoats developement is in early phase, in my eyes and the tool is very promising for me. We must see, zBrush have a much longer developement behind it and mudbox a lot of developement money, because of the film industry. And in compare to this tools, 3DC is already on a very high level.

My two cents

Chris

Same for me!

Andrew is not programming a ZB or MB clone! He's implementing a complete new sculpting technology. So ZB and MB can be compared, but not 3DC with them. I tried both of them and owning ZBrush. All I can say is...3DC is giving me freedom to do SCULPT and not have to think about Topology or something. Sure 3DCoat needs improvement, but Andrew and his team working hard and doing a great job! The best benefit of 3DC for me is Andrews fast response on bug reports and hints for workflow improvements. So we all can make 3DC a better application in the future. Feels good!

I suggest to let go these compare things and instead of this helping Andrew and his team with telling them what needs to be better and how, not what's bad. They need motivation not frustration...

I'm believing in 3DC...