Advanced Member ghib Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 We've all had this discussion before but I thought I'd bring your attention to this (insightful??) thread CGtalk - Why Isn't 3D-Coat More Popular? p.s. I hope this doesn't turn into another massive religious debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 26, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 We've all had this discussion before but I thought I'd bring your attention to this (insightful??) thread CGtalk - Why Isn't 3D-Coat More Popular? p.s. I hope this doesn't turn into another massive religious debate. Yeah, Leigh is definitely running his own petty little Hater's club over there....If I were Andrew, knowing that one of their staff members was drinking the Hater'ade, I wouldn't spend another penny advertising with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Grandmaster B Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Its more about the belief that religion should not be directly involved with software. It's not about the religion itself it could also be a football fanclub. In some states in the past 3D-Coat had annoying bugs and performance problems and from what i read many people tried 3D-Coat in such a state and got disappointed. I remember myself almost uninstalling the trial cause i got so ***. Likely there were also new features that were not tested good enough or broke other stuff. It takes time for people to understand that 3D-Coat is a moving target. Some mentioned the GUI, which i find rather good but could use some cleanup. Also a thing that i saw is in progress already. Some paint and sculpt tools still react unexpected and need tweaking tho. While most complains about 3D-Coat are minor, in the sum they may ruin a good first experience with the software. Curiously new user try out things and may run into bugs more quickly. I, for one, can say that i can (now) highly recommend 3D-Coat with the current direction it is heading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 26, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Its more about the belief that religion should not be directly involved with software. It's not about the religion itself it could also be a football fanclub. In some states in the past 3D-Coat had annoying bugs and performance problems and from what i read many people tried 3D-Coat in such a state and got disappointed. I remember myself almost uninstalling the trial cause i got so ***. Likely there were also new features that were not tested good enough or broke other stuff. It takes time for people to understand that 3D-Coat is a moving target. Some mentioned the GUI, which i find rather good but could use some cleanup. Also a thing that i saw is in progress already. Some paint and sculpt tools still react unexpected and need tweaking tho. While most complains about 3D-Coat are minor, in the sum they may ruin a good first experience with the software. Curiously new user try out things and may run into bugs more quickly. I, for one, can say that i can (now) highly recommend 3D-Coat with the current direction it is heading. I wholeheartedly agree that the admonishment serves no benefit, even from a Christian perspective. This is an industry (software development) that should be neutral by nature. There are better and more appropriate ways to share one's faith. A statement page on a software website isn't among them. Having said that...anyone who would let that be an impediment really is the kind of person Andrew doesn't want using his Intellectual Property to begin with. The sad reality though....is that accounts for a large percentage of the CG marketplace. I think as long as Andrew keeps his own site clean of objectionable content, that's about as far as you can take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Roger_K Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah, Leigh is definitely running his own petty little Hater's club over there....If I were Andrew, knowing that one of their staff members was drinking the Haterade, I wouldn't spend another penny advertising with them. That's a bit extreme, she said she avoids the software because of the religious link. Her loss. we have Bay Raitt, that's more than enough awesome for any software Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Calabi Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 That religious thing is nonsense its an excuse, 98point nine percent of people would never notice or care about that religious message. Someone whom says they arent buying it for that reason is basically lying(to themselves as well), using that as an excuse because they wouldnt use it anyway. The main reason I think 3dCoat is not more popular is just the industry is set in its ways. The artists have their pipelines, and preffered softwares the same with the companys. Its not about whos best, its about whos entrenched, whom got their first. I doubt its going to change much either, not unless something drastic happens. New artists replacing the old ones, having more sense and not just kowtowing to what the old artists say perhaps(perhaps a geographic divide, poorer countries choose the affordable software, richer countries gravitate to the rip off software). Also it might change by 3dCoat doing something, no other software does, and that everyone has to have(even then though the other softwares might steal it or copy it, but then it already has with the autoretopo(perhaps it needs to be shown off a bit more?). Perhaps the artists minds will not be changed for anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Routb3d Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Just wait.. I use 3D coat as my 3D sculpting app every day. I don't get a chance to share my work often because I'm always under NDAs. 3D Coat has the true Grit of genius at work! I love that 3DC is constantly evolving. Not to say that today is bad as a 3D coat user but the hope of a better tomorrow is always looming.. And I'm talking about Literally Tomorrow not next year! Especially with the recent addition to the 3D Coat team.. Congrats on that! Just wait.. Enough will come.. God is on our side.. he he Isaiah C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Kabaal Posted January 26, 2011 Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I think Calabi hit the nail on the head with the "entrenched" comment. So many people buy software because its the "industry standard" or because "It's what everyone uses". I say no, get the software that does what you need and what you find you're most productive with. And btw I agree with Roger_K not buying software based on a religious point if view is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah, Leigh is definitely running his own petty little Hater's club over there....If I were Andrew, knowing that one of their staff members was drinking the Hater'ade, I wouldn't spend another penny advertising with them. Just a quick side note, Leigh Van Der Byl is a she. She used to be a huge LightWave supporter too, then suddenly flip flopped on that for some reason. http://workshops.cgsociety.org/instructors/leigh_van_der_byl/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 One night I was checking an unknown for me software called "3dcoat". I found it interesting, then I read about Andrew. "wow this is different, at last something different" I said and bought a license. My short story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ManFriday Posted January 26, 2011 Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't have a problem with Leigh. She has always been pretty helpful to people. However, I do think it is kinda funny that Leigh won't consider 3dcoat because of the "christian thing", but she has no problem working on the Narnia movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't believe in god but it doesn't really put me off buying a good product if the developers do. I guess though if there is some big discussions about it going on with forums then it could be like free advertising. It's Andrews choice of course but reading that suggests the our voice thing is not such a good idea for the company's image as a lot of people don't like it much. The other main thing from that thread is people don't like the GUI either. I find it ok but it could do with some adjustments and certain things updating like the preset system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member RichL Posted January 26, 2011 Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Ignoring the religious discussion, which at this point has thankfully died down. Pilgway should very carefully pursue that thread, there is lots of interesting comments by artists and their perception of the software. Marketing research like this costs money and time, you have your target segment telling you the good and bad of your software. Many interesting comments here. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tom K Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 The other main thing from that thread is people don't like the GUI either. other than the color green and the name 3d-coat. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Calabi Posted January 26, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I'm sure they'd like 3d-Coats UI to function like the perfectly artisticly intuitive Zbrush(that was sarcasm by the way). I wouldnt listen to those guys too much, they dont say what they mean, and they dont know what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psmith Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 So, did I make a mistake by starting that thread? Do you think, even though the title was slightly negative, that anything positive came from asking the question? Myself, I think that kind of feedback is worth thousands of dollars, maybe more. Reading the comments with our "intelligent" filter on, I think we can glean miles of valuable information that could greatly influence the success of our product and light the way for how to proceed with development. But, I could be wrong. Greg Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 26, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't have a problem with Leigh. She has always been pretty helpful to people. However, I do think it is kinda funny that Leigh won't consider 3dcoat because of the "christian thing", but she has no problem working on the Narnia movies. Whenever she sees someone on there, who gives her, or her cronies even the slightest "push-back" on her/their Anti-Religous comments, she instantly morphs into the Soup Nazi (Seinfeld show)....."No CG Society for you!!!" The one or two posters she banned yesterday were absolutely harmless and benign. They were just expressing a little support for Andrew. They weren't launching into a religious debate of any kind. Her conduct is totally uncalled for. No warning to tone it down (that would be the professional thing to do). She treats the community there like it's her little playground. Get her mad, by outing yourself as a Christian or empathetic to them and she'll take her marbles and go home, taking her little 's with her. I've never seen a forum run like that. As for the UI, I don't know where that comes from. I personally think the Yellow theme (very Modo-esque) should be the default one, as the gray default is a bit on the bland side, but structurally, I don't see a major fault with it. I don't care much for Softimage's UI (big soft round buttons, like you find on a kids toy), but if I needed to use it, that wouldn't stop me. It really has some impressive technology behind it. Some of that bias may have to do with the similarity to the Lightwave UI, but it also has a large Photoshop element to it as well. It's not terribly different from Mudbox 2011's UI, and I didn't here any fuss about that. So, I think much of that discussion is full of old or just flat out wrong information. Voxel Sculpting has taken a huge step forward in the past several months, and I'd venture to say most of those negatively opinioned posters haven't even tried 3DC recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 The one or two posters she banned yesterday were absolutely harmless and benign. They were just expressing a little support for Andrew. They weren't launching into a religious debate of any kind. Her conduct is totally uncalled for. No warning to tone it down (that would be the professional thing to do). She treats the community there like it's her little playground. Get her mad, by outing yourself as a Christian or empathetic to them and she'll take her marbles and go home, taking her little 's with her. I've never seen a forum run like that. Actually to be fair she did give a warning that the thread would be closed if the religious stuff kept up on page 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 27, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Actually to be fair she did give a warning that the thread would be closed if the religious stuff kept up on page 2. She didn't warn the person that took issue with her comments about the matter. She just out of the blue told him/her they were banned. Their posts were pretty civil as far as I could tell. She's a Nazi alright...it's not the first time, either. If you noticed, she had to get her little shot in there first, before saying anything about shutting the thread down. She treads right on the edge, making everyone aware of her bias/bigotry, but the second you express a differing opinion, she brings out the axe. Screw that site. I hope Andrew never spends another penny with those folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Oh yes, I know what you mean. Let's not turn this into a Leigh bashing thread though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 27, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Oh yes, I know what you mean. Let's not turn this into a Leigh bashing thread though. She can't break out the axe and chains here, so I'm having a little fun with it... Soup Nazi II...Revenge No CGTalk for you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted January 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Oh yes, I know what you mean. Let's not turn this into a Leigh bashing thread though. Lets do. Epic fail. Lol. Anyway with the religious issue, I'll just post from my other post Not an issue. Its their software and its just a simple request. As it says its not absolute and not legally binding. So for those with a problem with it like the recent cgtalk thread, they can protest all they want. Dont buy the software. They can buy other software to make their porn art, kidding. If you did that kind of art I doubt any software vendor would like to advertise it was made in their software. A very big deal for snotty "artsy people". Meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Actually they can protest all they want, as long as the forum doesn't turn into a huge battle. It's nice when things are civil around here (and there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member parel Posted January 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Sad but to be expected The only answer to that kind of bile and prejudice is excellent work- from the programmers and the user base who wants 3dcoat to succeed. I find the zbrush gallery art to be on the creepy side so I dont go there and use 3dcoat- which I feel far more resonance with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 27, 2011 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Sad but to be expected The only answer to that kind of bile and prejudice is excellent work- from the programmers and the user base who wants 3dcoat to succeed. I find the zbrush gallery art to be on the creepy side so I dont go there and use 3dcoat- which I feel far more resonance with. True...it motivated me, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tom K Posted January 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 They can buy other software to make their porn art, kidding. If you did that kind of art I doubt any software vendor would like to advertise it was made in their software. Isn't That was DAZ is for? They don't exactly advertise it for porn, but it's close. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted January 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Isn't That was DAZ is for? They don't exactly advertise it for porn, but it's close. Tom Really? I have to check that . Lol. Anyway these drama queens are just over reacting. Are they making art that is borderline? If of so then I doubt they would publish it for normal consumers. Art for the sake of art sake is trash. Been around these artsy people in school and work who can't draw with a pencil to save their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Grandmaster B Posted January 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 It must be said that 3D-Coat is partly bound to the conditions of a religious belief. So, just ignoring is not an option. I for one take licenses VERY seriously and also took the "voice" into account, i admit i had to think twice about that. I dont believe in any common god, but that does not mean i have no faith, or find the religion wrong. However, you can see that this is quiet a struggle people have come through. And from a global perspective, religion can be very problematic and causes a lot of conflicts, even these days. Who can blame the people who think its best to be avoided? If you agree with something it's easy to say, just go with it. I do not stand against the policies of 3D-Coat or the "mission" behind it but i can also not understand why people are wondering if this may hurt sales. It does, people care about that kind of stuff! A good missionary is just helping and supporting until he is asked why he does so and his voice is heard. Just telling the rules in a context without faith does not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 What conditions? No where does it say you are required to think a certain way in order to use the software. Personally I have no interest in religions of any sort. Doesn't stop me from using the 3D software of my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Grandmaster B Posted January 27, 2011 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 People get more and more idealistic about religious neutrality, especially in central Europe and America. There is also at least the non-porn condition of 3D-Coat. While most people do not want that anyway it is seen as a restriction of self-determination which strengthen such effects. I find it totally valid (and good in the end!) that 3D-Coat is an application with a message but i also see that it, at the same time, touches ground many people try to avoid these days. This must also be understood and respected as it is an act of self-defense. I know this is probably not the main reason for 3D-Coat not being (even) more used. But, as stated above, i felt the need to explain cause some people did not understand that - or saw that as an excuse and others agreed. I warn you to easily incapacitate opinions that way. Personally i dont care much about others religions either (self-defense?) but i found it important that i can agree with the meaning behind it before buying/supporting/using 3D-Coat. If that is not the intend of the statements and restriction then i dont understand why it's there. PS: I like the green logo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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