Contributor BeatKitano Posted July 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 The ergonomics are no worse than actual painting, if you think about it. Holding up a paintbrush while painting onto an easel can also get tiring. Except you don't have to lift the arm stand still, locate where you brush is. You take arm>canvas. And you can rest your arm on the canvas (if there's no paint yet), and your brush can serve as an anchor point too. The leap ? : Paint somewhere in that general area... Oh and when you're actually brushing, you see your stroke, not a 200ms lag paint :> And that's 2d, it's manageable (painful but manageable), in 3d, not so much, where am I in Z ? DUNNO LOL. Too much issue based on the very concept (not technological barriers). And it's not an eye/arm coordination issue only, cause tablets deal with it perfectly with it, but they offer one thing the leap will never deliver: rest for your limb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted July 26, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 Yeah...I'm not a huge fan of this, either. There are new gadgets coming out all the time, and it must be a nightmare for a developer to have a few from the fanbase constantly asking, "Hey can you support this new thingy." A few months time, there will be some kind of Wii device that acts like a pen in 3D Space. We kind of went through this years ago with the Novint Falcon. http://www.novint.com/index.php/novintfalcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted July 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 I dunno about brushing, but I personally always thought about this particular device as a cheaper alternative to 3D Connexion's devices. Being able to lay down brush strokes with Wacom tablet and at the same time to be able to rotate the model, even if it requires rising ones hand, is what I'm after. May I ask how is the Leap faring in this department at its current state - without 3D Coat fully supporting it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Marc Wakefield Posted July 26, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 Navigating in the 3d space does work pretty well. It feels a bit disjointed using a mouse to sculpt and a leap to navigate but that is to be expected. My laptop only has 2 USB 3 ports so I can not use my Yiynova tablet screen (which requires 2) and my Leap at the same time and I know which one I would prefer to use for sculpting. There is some mileage in it and it would be cool if it was integrated in some way in the future. I think we need to see how it goes. I was pleased that sketchfab adopted it so quickly. Corel Freestyle works pretty well an it does feel like painting on a canvas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted July 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 My laptop only has 2 USB 3 ports so I can not use my Yiynova tablet screen (which requires 2) and my Leap at the same time and I know which one I would prefer to use for sculpting. That's something I'm curious to test, seing that most tablet drivers use mouse polling to absolutely "place" the cursor position relative to tablet x,y I wonder if the leap would actually work with this setup... I sense conflict between the two devices I'm pretty sure both devices use the same method for positioning thus I expect flicker/no move/eratic positioning of cursor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted July 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Incedently, to use the Yiynovo pen, you must disable a Wacom pen so there may indeed be a conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted July 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Yes but that is "normal", wacom doesn't even support multiple drivers from different wacom models on the same system (I always have to uninstall current wacom tablet driver before trying a new model)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Marc Wakefield Posted July 27, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Yeah, I didn't think about that. The Yiynova and the Leap fighting for control of the cursor could be an epic battle worthy of legend. I think the Yiynova would win as he sounds big an Russian (even though he isn't) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted July 28, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Seems like I'm not the only one raising the flaws and saying this has no future "the Leap Motion Controller fails as a tool because it does not "[address] human needs by amplifying human capabilities." It ignores our hands' ability to both feel and manipulate. It's a step behind the touchscreen, despite being a newer technology, because there's no way of telling when something is touched or grabbed." "Gestures worked great when the motion could be abstracted or visualized, but for fine motor skills I needed the friction and feedback of touch. A pen provided a greater amount of precision, but the lack of feedback still felt unnatural." It's important that we not lose track of the goal of technology: to make our lives easier. Human beings are meant to touch, manipulate, peel, push, click, tap, brush, rub, knock, squeeze, and feel. Creating a user interface that ignores human behavior does not improve how we interact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted July 28, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Seems like I'm not the only one raising the flaws and saying this has no future "the Leap Motion Controller fails as a tool because it does not "[address] human needs by amplifying human capabilities." It ignores our hands' ability to both feel and manipulate. It's a step behind the touchscreen, despite being a newer technology, because there's no way of telling when something is touched or grabbed." "Gestures worked great when the motion could be abstracted or visualized, but for fine motor skills I needed the friction and feedback of touch. A pen provided a greater amount of precision, but the lack of feedback still felt unnatural." It's important that we not lose track of the goal of technology: to make our lives easier. Human beings are meant to touch, manipulate, peel, push, click, tap, brush, rub, knock, squeeze, and feel. Creating a user interface that ignores human behavior does not improve how we interact. It does have a future, or at least this tech does, despite what happened to similar startups (with different "disruptive" tech) like Livescribe with their completely awesome smartpen which didn't take off nearly as much as I though it would.The Leap is excellent hardware and decent software, backed by a so far excellent and smart developer-friendly company. but that may not be enough. With tech like this in a new paradigm - there is a big problem: fictional movies have conditioned the public "how it should work", but unfortunately Iron Man just ain't the way the real world works. This sort of new paradigm requires significant interaction design, testing & refinement for usability... I've had a dev Leap device since Jan, planning to make something for 3DC with it, and admittedly, although I haven't spent 40hrs a week working on it since, I have attempted and made a few prototypes in between my other work, I've had too many glitches and was not happy with the "feel" of the interaction being bulletproof and working as I envisioned it so I haven't been to vocal or released anything I've done. I JUST got the final shipping version last week and the hardware is noticeably better, and recent updates from Leap with their drivers and SDK are much more robust. Still to me, (and this is not to say there aren't awesome developers out there) but only a fraction of what I've seen out there for the Leap feels good an natural and more than a gimmick. This is NOT the devices fault, it is that developers are not taught interaction design. Interaction design is glossed over, but it is a highly technical and complicated art to get right, and the weird thing is that when you do get it right, it just feels like you were born doing it and so simple that how hard could it be to figure it out?? Apple got it right in so many ways, but in other ways the touchscreen trend is still lame and taken on where it shouldn't be. I mean I love a lot of the interaction and I love the new Model S Tesla car, but do you really need a 17" giant touchscreen in your car? Can you operate your iPhone with your eyes closed with one hand? I could with a Nokia and physical buttons. That is where new paradigms fall down. Unfortunately I don't want to release something that is half assed - even the Touchless driver for windows/mac for Leap feel clunky to me and not instantaneously obvious. There are too many interaction obstacles at present for a seamless, unobtrusive and truly productive user experience. Is it cool and fun to use? Yes. Will it speed up my 3DC work sessions? Not yet. Hopefully I sort something really useful out (I need to set aside some project time for more work on it), and I'd be really happy of someone beat me to the punch making a productive tool for 3D with it, but at the moment everything I've played with or built is just a toy that doesn't revolutionize interacting with your computer like I'd hoped it would. I'll keep trying.... Maybe micro gestures are where to concentrate...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Does the Leap require USB 3? If so I guess I'll be waiting a longer than I thought. My computer may have been top of the line when I built it but that was almost 6 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted July 28, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Even Apple experimented wih Air gesture... Steve Jobs himself said it: it won't work it doesn't feel right you've to feel for it to be a successful interaction system. Microsoft developped wedge tech about 5 years ago (hover gesture on tablet devices), we are yet to see it getting out as a consumer product, and this isn't only a cost/production issue, it's just they noticed the idea wasn't that "human". It's not a tech barrier. It's a fundamental design choice not matching with human physical interaction. Sorry to insist. As I see it for interaction devices: if you don't have a physical feedback on what you press/touch whatever, you can't be precise therefore you can't be fast and mouse/stylus/keyboards based devices are wining. The only way I see the button based devices (including mouse or touchscreen) getting obsolete is by mixing eye tracking and a neuroactuating device (but this has a loooong way to go). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted July 28, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 I think the Novint Falcon would be the best option as it's very similar to ClayTools and it's expensive force feedback device, but I agree with Beat, it would tire the arm quickly having to hold it up in the air, unsupported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted July 28, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 Yes it's probably more natural to use, but I actually used the ClayTool thingy for a few months and even if it's awesome the first few weeks you get tired of it quickly because even if it provides a semi feedback it's still brushing in the air and that doesn't help with the precision (plus their software is waaay behind for sculpting if you're not using it for product design). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted July 29, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Does the Leap require USB 3? If so I guess I'll be waiting a longer than I thought. My computer may have been top of the line when I built it but that was almost 6 years ago. Nope, it supports USB 3 but works with USB 2 as well. I have tried it on a Dell laptop and Mac Pro desktop both with USB 2 only and it works great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member L'Ancien Regime Posted July 30, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 Nope, it supports USB 3 but works with USB 2 as well. I have tried it on a Dell laptop and Mac Pro desktop both with USB 2 only and it works great. How's your app development coming for Leap/3d coat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Marc Wakefield Posted July 30, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 Nope, it supports USB 3 but works with USB 2 as well. I have tried it on a Dell laptop and Mac Pro desktop both with USB 2 only and it works great. Cool, I didn't know that. I am going to try hooking up my Yiynova and Leap at the same time and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted July 30, 2013 Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 Nope, it supports USB 3 but works with USB 2 as well. I have tried it on a Dell laptop and Mac Pro desktop both with USB 2 only and it works great. Ah that's good to know. I can see a device like this possibly needing the speed of 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted July 30, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 You can buy a USB 3 PCI card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted August 14, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 I'm much more convinced by this. It may not look as fancy but the simple fact that you can actualy rest your hands on something and use that surface to get tactile feedback makes all the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor TimmyZDesign Posted August 16, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted August 16, 2013 I'm much more convinced by this. It may not look as fancy but the simple fact that you can actualy rest your hands on something and use that surface to get tactile feedback makes all the difference. Looks like it makes more sense. Being able to rest your hands/arms is critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Marc Wakefield Posted August 16, 2013 Author Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 16, 2013 I'm much more convinced by this. It may not look as fancy but the simple fact that you can actualy rest your hands on something and use that surface to get tactile feedback makes all the difference. That looks pretty cool. I may have to consider backing it! I might wait this time round though and see what others make of it before taking the plunge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted August 16, 2013 Report Share Posted August 16, 2013 It's really full 3D though, it's like 2.5D like how a Wacom pen can hover above the tablet and still control the mouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member geo_n Posted August 17, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 They have air gestures and eyetracking tech on new samsung phones. Wonder how it translates to desktop applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted August 19, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 Still having no luck making a revolutionary sculpting experience with natural feeling interactions with the Leap... I do really like the device, but am beginning to lean more in the direction that this guy is in this review: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/LeapMotionAmazingRevolutionaryUseless.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted August 19, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 btw the Leap can do what the Haptix does. (At least what I see in their video) - All you'd need to do is mount it on the top of your laptop like where they mount the Haptix, and then just use 3D planes of where your keyboard is to be the active surface. I don't see this as really being "haptic" - when there's a device (like the one disney research has experimented with) which shoots invisible pressure jets of air to your moving fingers to make the invisible seem like it has force/physicality, then that will be truly haptic. Or when touchscreens on smartphones and tablets physically morph buttons into and out of their surfaces at high speeds, then that will be cool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted August 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 btw the Leap can do what the Haptix does. (At least what I see in their video) - All you'd need to do is mount it on the top of your laptop like where they mount the Haptix, and then just use 3D planes of where your keyboard is to be the active surface. I don't see this as really being "haptic" - when there's a device (like the one disney research has experimented with) which shoots invisible pressure jets of air to your moving fingers to make the invisible seem like it has force/physicality, then that will be truly haptic. Or when touchscreens on smartphones and tablets physically morph buttons into and out of their surfaces at high speeds, then that will be cool... I'm not sure the leap will really register the contact points, cause that's what really matters here. without resisting surface and tactile feedback it's a gadget. Besides it's all software but I doubt the leap can register you making gesture vs you using your keyboard As for the disney tech, from the word of a guy I know at Allegorithmic who tried it : "it's crap" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Routb3d Posted September 1, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 The Razer Hydra + The Oculus Rift seems like a pretty great combo for input and feedback.. MakeVR has done an excellent job validating the tech in MakeVR. Check it out.. Imagine being able to do this in 3D coat. http://sixense.com/makevr Isaiah Coberly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted September 1, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 Again, useless for sculpting, you don't know where you "hit", and you've got no way to rest your arms and no tactile feedback (the video show it's snapping all the way, no fine control) May be fun for short gaming sessions but that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Routb3d Posted September 1, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 Again, useless for sculpting, you don't know where you "hit", and you've got no way to rest your arms and no tactile feedback (the video show it's snapping all the way, no fine control) May be fun for short gaming sessions but that's it. I think your right about physical resistance being needed for sculpting. As for Boolean operations and many other CAD procedures I can see this working. Perhaps The Oculus should be married to Sensable's phantom haptic force feedback stylus. I think Geomagic recently bought Sensable. Isaiah Coberly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.