Reputable Contributor digman Posted November 24, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Jamie brought up a good question about the various view modes in the paint room when vertex painting. We have flat shade,the various other lighting settings and relief mode. These do no work when painting vertex painting or not work the same as when you are PPP or MV painting. At the moment we really have only the default setting. I had assumed it was not possible because vertex painting is based upon vertices in the surface mode object plus there is no uv set. The routine being completely different as the vertex colors are not baked to a uv set and applied to the model as when we merge our vetex painting for PPP or MV Andrew, is it even possible to have the normal view settings in the paintroom for vertex painting, No need to make a feature request sometime if it is not possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 voxel tools - functions changed ? carve = 2dpaint closehole = cutoff --------------------------------------------------------- The problem I found is that when you select Paint Distortion, the single image is switched to tiling mode. You can not switch back to non-tile mode even for paint mode. You have to close the image and then sometimes your image will not load again in non-tiled mode even in paint mode till you close and reopen 3DCoat. Painting distortion works but with the above problems. Edit : Just tested again and it gets stuck in tiling mode till you close and reopen 3DCoat. Just tested again, still here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Weird but I can see it.... voxel tools - functions changed ? carve = 2dpaint closehole = cutoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted November 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Jamie brought up a good question about the various view modes in the paint room when vertex painting. We have flat shade,the various other lighting settings and relief mode. These do no work when painting vertex painting or not work the same as when you are PPP or MV painting. At the moment we really have only the default setting. I had assumed it was not possible because vertex painting is based upon vertices in the surface mode object plus there is no uv set. The routine being completely different as the vertex colors are not baked to a uv set and applied to the model as when we merge our vetex painting for PPP or MV Andrew, is it even possible to have the normal view settings in the paintroom for vertex painting, No need to make a feature request sometime if it is not possible... View modes for vertex painting will be same as for ppp/mv up to V4 release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sculptor919 Posted November 25, 2012 Member Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Mesh Collapse and holes still occuring in the latest beta 6B (64bit CUDA) See pic. I've tried on my original file plus new projects from scratch and the same occurs. My system specs: Win 7 Pro 64bit Intel Core i7 3770K, Ivy Bridge, 3.5GHz, Quad Core 16 GB Corsair Vengeance 1600MHz NVidia GTX 660ti 2GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted November 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Sculptor919, can you try to reproduce what you did on directx64 no cuda ? I'm under the impression cuda makes it even worse with those bugs, for instance activating smooth boost is almost a guarantee to get weird things like that (and gl is known to be buggier than directx) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sculptor919 Posted November 25, 2012 Member Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Yes the same is occuring in the DX version. I've attached 2 pics one showing the original file in DX plus a new project in DX both having the hole problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted November 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Ok, tnx for trying that :/ I hope they get it right... it's a pity really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sculptor919 Posted November 25, 2012 Member Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Yeah I've been enjoying the Live Clay tools, guess I'll have to move back to voxels till it's fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted November 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 I know your pain, Liveclay is really awesome but those things are completely ruining the experience. You can't really use it till this kind of things are totally gone, otherwise you'll always end up with corrupt scene files mid-project or unusable mesh for export (even for salvaging project in another app because those issues are not always visible, sneaky buggers...)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sculptor919 Posted November 25, 2012 Member Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 I'm hoping they fix this soon as 3D Coat will become a serious alternative to zbrush once they solve this issue. Especially with the price difference between the 2 programs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted November 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Exactly what I'm thinking, adding functionality is not necessary at this stage, bugproofing is the requirement. Everything else is bonus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Ctrl+V converts all voxel layers to surface... is this ok ? i cant use copy tool anymore (ctrl+C... ctrl+V) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted November 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Yes, issue indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted November 25, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Yes the same is occuring in the DX version. I've attached 2 pics one showing the original file in DX plus a new project in DX both having the hole problems. Do you have an idea of the how these problems occurred, what brushes or steps before this happened. I know most of my problems seem to appear when I use a combination of LC brushes and surface mode brushes. I do understand it is hard to pin down, they can appear after a long sculpting session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sculptor919 Posted November 25, 2012 Member Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Do you have an idea of the how these problems occurred, what brushes or steps before this happened. I know most of my problems seem to appear when I use a combination of LC brushes and surface mode brushes. I do understand it is hard to pin down, they can appear after a long sculpting session. Hi Digman. Start with a basic cube in surface mode and increase the resolution (resample the poly count to 1.4 or 1.5 million ). Select the Live Clay tool from the LC menu and start building up a corner using the second solid white brush (give it a good build up multiple times). Select Surface smooth, work the corner and the holes will appear (at least on my system). I'd like to know if non Nvidia users have these issues to determine if they are graphic card related. My system specs: Win 7 Pro 64bit Intel Core i7 3770K, Ivy Bridge, 3.5GHz, Quad Core 16 GB Corsair Vengeance 1600MHz NVidia GTX 660ti 2GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted November 25, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Thanks, I was able to reproduce the hole problem... This will help Raul track it down. This was using Linux version beta 5 64 bit non cuda and according to your other post was not corrected in Windows beta 6... I used the LiveClay brush and did not use the smooth tool but just the freeze brush to mark an area. This reveled the hole. This is what I think is happening, the holes are being created but they are invisible till we select some other brush or tool and use them. The mesh appears correct but in reality is not... Now I begin to understand the problem with our LC meshes at times why everything looks great then "Blam" a hole or holes. The holes are there already we just can't see them till we select another brush or tool. The hole could be created earlier we just would not know it till later in the sculpting process, maybe even hours later... This could be something in the actual LiveClay brush routine.The problem could effect other LC brushes as well. Since I use my own created brushes based off the General Brush and really only use the creaseclay and inflateclay brush, I very seldom run into these type of problems. I could at times might select a brush I normally do not use and even forgot I used it. Maybe for just a little touchup or something and then later a hole will appear. This leads me to believe it could be a localized problem depending upon which LC brush we use or even a surface mode brush. I also looked in wireframe mode, the mesh was there but it was not marked by the freeze brush, It stayed white in color... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted November 25, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Im really busy right now but here is quick report. -Speed and general performance: Fantastic! .... Performance are very,very good...it really shows that you worked hard on this.And its a very important aspect of working with LC. As for the other bugs and the few more we are gonna find this week...Im not worried.You will get those down. Don't get discouraged guys!! Now, you're singing my tune. Are we talking LC performance exclusively, or has it spilled over into other brushes/tools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted November 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Thanks, I was able to reproduce the hole problem... This will help Raul track it down. This was using Linux version beta 5 64 bit non cuda... I used the LiveClay brush and did not use the smooth tool but just the freeze brush to mark an area. This reveled the hole. This is what I think is happening, the holes are being created but they are invisible till we select some other brush or tool and use them. The mesh appears correct but in reality is not... Now I begin to understand the problem with our LC meshes at times why everything looks great then "Blam" a hole or holes. The holes are there already we just can't see them to we select another brush. The hole could be created earlier we just would not know it till later in the sculpting process, maybe even hours later... This could be something in the actual LiveClay brush routine.The problem could effect other LC brushes as well. Since I use my own created brushes based off the General Brush and really only use the creaseclay and inflateclay brush, I very seldom run into these type of problems. I could at times might select a brush I normally do not use and even forgot I used it. Maybe for just a little touchup or something and then later a hole will appear. This leads me to believe it could be a localized problem depending upon which LC brush we use or even a surface mode brush. I also looked in wireframe mode, the mesh was there but it was not marked by the freeze brush, It stayed white in color... Nothing new, ask Artman we discussed about "bad brushes" before and we both use "safe brushes" only. And yes mesh corruption happens BEFORE we discover it, the tears and explosions are the result of unsupported geo (unconnected vertices and such), and yes they happen and we don't see them until we're pretty much sc****** hours later, this is also the sole reason those aren't fixed yet, finding the cause is almost impossible... (No offense intended just stating what has been said many MANY times before as you just discovered it ) Try using smoothing over your mesh randomly at time during sculpt, I guarantee you instant detection if a corruption happened without your knowledge ! (this exactly what I did on the explosion pic posted earlier: one stroke of smooth: BAM ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Ok thanks for the detail description, I'll solve this asap, currently I'm trying hard to solve the SnakeClay problem, mostly due to too high subdiv in a preprocess hidden to the artist, so I'm fixing this right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted November 25, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 @ Beatkitano I was part of that disscussion as well and suggested using safe brushes... I could have used the word understand more fully, completely understand... Ok, maybe I incorrectly used the wrong word but this is the first time, I seen clearly by actual demonstration how and when the problem is created. That is all I meant. "No offense intended" but you at times just say things based your on your frustration at this problem which I know has been around quite awhile so being frustrated is understandable. If I do not keep commenting about these type of issues, yes even commenting many times how will problems get solved. I could said the heck with it and put my 3DCoat in the trash bin. I too get frustrated at times but I have made a personal choice to stay and keep reporting problems. Like when I came home from work my wife would say to me leave the frustrations at the door... I choose to leave my frustrations with 3DCoat at the forum door and not bring them here... That is my personal choice no one else has to make the same choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Rule #1 of every software: -Do not use "Beta" tools for production environment or if decided to use, use it at your own risk. For one reason is called beta. I do not speak for other tools in 3DC but if we would have been release LC as non Beta then you have all the reasons in the world to feel mad about us, but is just that. That's the power of big numbers: more eyes and uses than we can ever imagine or plan will eventually find more issues and contribute in the end to make the software more stable. We will make several more betas before achieving a production ready LC tool set, but we are not there yet. Each Beta, while not solve all issues is indeed a step forward, so don't feel mad with us please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted November 25, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Oh man, someone overinterpreted what I was saying. So: -I'm not mad, I was angry yesterday but then again not at anyone at pilgway because I know you don't have a magic wand to solve everything in one pass, I can't even pinpoint what create most of those issues I don't expect you to spot them and fix them at once ! -I know it's a beta software, I'm not trying to use in production env, what I see is on personal doodle, I would be mad to use the tool as it is on anything serious. And that's it, again textual communication is definitely not the best way to communicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Hi Beat I was not directly pointing you but the general "frustration" feeling...trust me, I get double frustration for each non satisfied user. And that's why we need to keep up and poking issues, since few weeks ago when we turn over our development efforts into stability good things have being done so i have high hopes that after several weeks more we get better and better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted November 25, 2012 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Thanks, Farsthary, I knew by this post and others you guys were working on stability... These problems were in 3.7 series for quite sometime and at times, not all the time, frustration would build when using the 3.7 series. You were gone for a several months so there was no way for you to hunt down bugs and Andrew did his best but he is only one man... Now in Beta version 4, "we are in open beta testing" with the end result being a solid stable version 4 upon it's release. You and Andrew are squashing these bugs as the beta progresses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 mantis have a Roadmap http://3d-coat.com/m...oadmap_page.php may be... is useful to use it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Regarding the reported problem here with holes...well, i did the steps, Resample actually mess up normals so is the responsible, no LC tools, but even in that case most LC and surface tools will quickly fix those normals, by stroking over it... so I don't see real holes happening....can affected artist provide more detail please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted November 26, 2012 Contributor Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Regarding the reported problem here with holes...well, i did the steps, Resample actually mess up normals so is the responsible, no LC tools, but even in that case most LC and surface tools will quickly fix those normals, by stroking over it... so I don't see real holes happening....can affected artist provide more detail please? On my side I had holes happens if Reduce tool was used too aggressively ,which I guess is normal...but some sorts of system/idea to prevent this could be cool. Something that would stop reduction before holes happens.... At least I found one easy to reproduce issue: -Try Surface Spike tool is used and then a LC brush is used big explosion occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Applink Developer haikalle Posted November 26, 2012 Applink Developer Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 BeatKitano. I remember that you reported bug when you use "cuda smooth boost". I can see it still. I can write a mantis report if that's not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 For reduce i may have a solution soon and regarding the explosion, thanks, I have reproduce it so we will solve it asap. We have already solved the Snake tool problems regarding tool drop off with fast movement and we have improved it a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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