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Modeling Room - Next Steps


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  • Carlosan changed the title to Modeling Room - Next Steps
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Here is my previous mail on the matter. I've given up on the modelling room since then since I don't think anything was fixed. In fact I'm sadly only using 3DCoat now for painting.

One bug UI problem I have with 3DCoat is that just moving,rotating and scaling individual objects is an absolute chore in general in 3d coat. These three transform tools should be no more than one click away, but in 3dCoat just to move an object is about 8 clicks through multiple unrelated menus or buttons you need to find each time. Its a UI nightmare!! Here is the current procees to move an object:

1-Dropdown click for tweak room, 2-click tweak room, 3-click select/Transform in tweak room, 4-click work mode select objects, 5-click on object, 6-click move button in tool options, 8-Finally click an drag gizmo!! :unknw: 

My point being - If the most basic transform tools aren't easy to work with , no wonder the modelling tool workflows have issues...

You should really check out other modelling packages for UI workflow. For instance MOI3D has about 20 buttons in total and I can model practically anything in it ...it has automatic guide snaps to objects grid, straight lines etc , super fast selection etc etc.. Cinema4d or Rocket3d are great reference points too.

Here are my modelling room specific issues:

I still can't understand the extrude tools in the low poly room. They are just not intuitive at all. For that matter, the whole low poly experience is extremely crude and infuriating.

Maybe I'm using it all wrong but the reason I upgraded was because I thought this would be a rapid way to create hard surface models. Currently its practically impossible and I just wonder if anyone else is using this room with any success? Is it just me that finds it impossible to use?

Some issues...

-I can only select an extrude tool if I choose one from the sub menu, not if I select the parent menu button.

-The extrude tools dont highlight when selected. Why not? Is this a tool that can only be used in conjunction with another tool. This should be made much clear as its just confusing as it is now.

-If I select Smart extrude, select a face a left click drag the face just gets moved. There seem to be no way to actual extrude a face with this tool.

-If I select Normal extrude, select a face a left click drag the face just gets moved. There seem to be no way to actual extrude a face with this tool.

-With either of those tools if i click off 3d coat into my second monitor and then click back into 3d coat the face is immediately moved to a far off arbitrary point in space.

-I cant seem to select multuiple faces easily. Do I really have to select the select tool to do this? There are so many steps to perform actions that should be done with the mouse buttons. If I need the select to to be able to actually use these tools, why isnt it just selected automatically or already have that functionality?

_ I really have to hit 'enter' EVERY time I want to commit an extrude? Why isn't it automatic and why enter? That involves me moving my hand waaay across the keyboard every time I want to extrude a single face. This should be automatic but If I DONT want to commit an extrusion I should just hold shift or something. 

-If not the above, commit extrusion should always be done automatically if a select new faces or deselect the faces.

-After manipulating a face there is no quick way to deselect the face and select another face. Shouldn't I just be able to click outside of the model to deselect it? I cant click any other face to either add to the selection OR replace the selected face.

-The only way to deselect faces (and therefore be able to select other faces) seems to be to go the popup menu and hit deselect all. This is VERY un-intuitive.

-Has this even been tested? Is there a video of someone using the low poly room efficiently? Maybe that would help.

 Have you tried the low poly modelling in other programs like Rocket 3D, Cinema 4d for example? Just copy them :)

..and I have no idea how to get my low poly mesh into the sculpt room at a decent resolution to start sculpting on. So many buttons, so little help.

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..and I'm just revisiting the room now (v2021.70) and here are some immediate issues I run into..

-I cant select/ modify anything on an existing imported polygon paint mesh.

..so that's the end of that then.

If its something Im doing wrong it should give me an obvious popup..'Cant paint on this type of mesh for whatever reason' But I get nothing ...so I have no idea why I cant select points or faces on this model.

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2 hours ago, Grimmy said:

I still can't understand the extrude tools in the low poly room.

Please, make a small video (in other programs like) with a demonstration of the Extrude tool.
Thank you.

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I'd like to preface by saying I really like the behavior and feel of the modeling room, it is /has been very welcome addition and I think you've done a good job with it so far :good:. It is with an asterix that one is also comfortable with retopo and sculpting rooms to some extent, that the modeling room compliments those. 

For a modeling room in 3DCoat, in my opinion it's purpose is better suited to helping user do the type of modeling jobs from scratch that are challenging to achieve via sculpt + retopo — it doesn't make sense to be a full on Modo, Silo or Blender or 3DS Max modeling experience.

For example, modeling something in model room, sending it to sculpt room, using the "conform to retopo" setting and using the Pose Tool to deform sculpt and retopo facilitates creating quite complex geometry otherwise hard to model from start. (Previously I used tweak room, but Pose Tool is so good now)

My number one suggestion for modeling room is a Bend Volume / Bend Along Curve type tool. 

(In this video it was one object bent so there are many copies, but one can also just bend one object along it's length, and control contour with the curve normal tangents)

It could work similar to the one present in sculpt room, except work with Poly Groups or with Model Panel models. If user just first worries about modeling a complex object on the XY plane first with clean topology, one could then deform it along a curve like so, then that has the potential to solve most any modeling job in isolation which is otherwise quite challenging!

That is without getting into CAD type subD tools or NURBS, which feel a bit out of scope for typical dcc asset pipeline, I don't have experience with those kinds of tools but I'm well aware of the usecases.

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modelling room should feel completely different to sculpting room...

all hotkeys in one room shouldnt affect the hotkeys in another room...

the circle around the cursor is very off putting when modelling

for me its all about the speed in which i can model,be it simple or complex

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Hi 

It would be nice if the modeling room can be differentiated from the others workspaces by using a more efficient layout of the tools.

An administration of the scene scales independent (global, local, normal).

An outliner that unifies the information and hierarchy of each mesh or curve (different from current using separate panels for each category)

Mesh metadata exposed and editable.

To have tools for polygonal and nurbs modeling, and being able to export the model for printing.

Idea: Would it be convenient to offer 3DC modeler as a standalone module, just as there is 3DC Textura ?

Thanks

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On 14.11.2021 at 13:02, Grimmy said:

..и я просто сейчас возвращаюсь в комнату (v2021.70), и вот некоторые неотложные проблемы, с которыми я сталкиваюсь..

-Я не могу выбрать/ изменить что-либо в существующей импортированной сетке многоугольника.

..значит, на этом все и закончится.

Если я что-то делаю не так, это должно дать мне очевидное всплывающее окно ... "Не могу рисовать на этом типе сетки по какой-либо причине", Но я ничего не получаю ...поэтому я понятия не имею, почему я не могу выбрать точки или грани на этой модели.

1027950703_.thumb.jpg.6a737a81f5bc6f6acb2889cd6ef71b2f.jpg

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Я считаю комната моделинга отличная и все инструменты логичны и быстро доступны  в  1, 2 клика если настроить горячие клавиши , просто некоторые пользователи не хотят в них хорошенько разобраться .! . Единственное горячие клавиши в данной комнате надо сделать не зависимыми от других комнат и решить болезнь их постоянных слетаний .! Я считаю  дробить программу на отдельные модули плохая идея , она просто потеряет свою универсальность и уже ни чем не будет отличатся от других . Хотя 3D-Coat уже разделили  , это сугубо мое мнение .  

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Extrude tools have been modified as requested by users.
With a new selection, the extrude is automatic when the movement starts.
Possibility to work as before for Smart Extrude is left.

 

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also importing from the modelling room to sculpt should be as difficult as it seems...

for example if the mesh from modelling goes over just create a seperate layer to the root

just feel like alot of the ui is mashed together and could easily be simplified

the whole reason i went from zbrush to 3dcoat was based on the fact it would be easier and faster to use but honestly its slowing down my workflow so much....

im finding more and more bugs that ruin the mesh everyday and even though they are reported i feel like every update something else breaks, i know thats just development but there is way too much going on,

for example the node system i honestly dont know a single soul whos used it or any tutorials on it,
bad_bevel_tool.thumb.jpg.b599c6c845f2b3e7934af343bba63315.jpg

 

bevel tool has some basic issues

voxelizing the mesh and autopo fixed the issue

 

UI.thumb.jpg.a8f1ef7c2899e1ef7c548587d574502d.jpg

 

the menus are confusing as hell... red box can be removed and circled layers shouldnt have so many options...

curves and mesh should be gathered into one layer, simple layout that can be named specific things

the tools below that can be added to the side panel while you are modelling, being able to just switch from one room to another needs to be more simple

retopos are places in new layers not a seperate room

many a space bar menu for search tools that doesnt involve space,a,1 or some sort of configuration because who can actually remember those sequences???

, things like edit pose falloff just has no explaination

simple but more imformative ui,

this is really why alot of people dont use 3dcoat or ever see videos comparing 3dcoat to others because its simply not very user friendly

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50 minutes ago, Gorbatovsky said:

Second fillet must be less than the first

ahh ok, im hoping you dont think im being horrible with my post, just really think the ui needs alot of work ,

its difficult to navigate and use features , there is no way of learning about the tools.

its all about a speedy workflow for me and the modelling especially

back to basics would be nice ,bevelling using the scroll wheel and drag to determine distance etc... its a nice workflow and more precise

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2 hours ago, Elemeno said:

ahh ok, im hoping you dont think im being horrible with my post

1. Andrew will finalize the problem with Hotkeys.
2. We need to prioritize. The common tree of objects in our plan.
3. We still need to polish on UI.

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On 22.11.2021 at 21:23, Gorbatovsky said:

1. Эндрю завершит решение проблемы с горячими клавишами.
2. Нам нужно расставить приоритеты. Общее дерево объектов в нашем плане.
3. Нам все еще нужно отшлифовать пользовательский интерфейс.

Здравствуйте . Может рассмотрите вариант Pie Menu , у многих используется , быстрый доступ к инструментам и действиям в нужный момент под курсором   , особенно если есть возможность пользовательского добавления инструментов . И не плохо разгружает интерфейс и поиск .  

 

Безымянный.jpg

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On 11/22/2021 at 3:23 PM, Gorbatovsky said:

2. We need to prioritize. The common tree of objects in our plan.

Are you going to join everything in one Panel or are going to implement access to datablocks using Dependency Graph nodes to modify attributes ?

 

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1 hour ago, Carlosan said:

Are you going to join everything in one Panel

I told about a Common Tree.
See picture from Render Room.  Sculpt Object, and Paint Object.

image.png

We can Transform and Copy Sculpt Object, and can't Paint Object.
Next Step - Edition of an Objects in Node Editor.

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