3DCoat 2024 UI suggestions

[Carlosan]

Discussions related to version 2024 UI, it's properties and facility. Also to share ideas for improving it.

[Jones C]

Looking forward for UI updates.

A few request if this is the right place to ask:

1. Gizmo rotation degree display, and user define snapping degree. I like the presentation of rotate without gizmo, showing the rotation degree real time and enable degree snapping would be perfect.

2. E-panel dockable and alway display, unless close by user.

3. Easier plane rotation and positioning, by adding control handle on the plane itself, like gizmo. 

4. A feature like dynamesh would be great for surface sculpting. 

5. Enable showing wireframe on top of shaded surface, in Sculpt Room.

3DCoat have some seriously powerful tools, like spheres, and blob, that if couple with an easier control able plane, will open up so many possibilities. My idea is, make the plane behave like a placeholder "2D virtual model" that can be  moved, rotate, scale,  or even bend, then sphere or blob can be draw on it. The plane can be activated using a hot key.

Edited February 19 by Jones C

[jene]

a Happy new year.  

I downloaded 3D-coatV2024. this is my personal opinion. personal feeling.

The new search icon doesn't need the left of all icon.

search tool is actually convenient. it is a good thing.  but it is not main tool.

 

I think it is intuitive to move the search icon to the right.

anyone, how do you think about this?

this is not a bug. for your reference.

 

щасливого Нового року.
Хочу ще раз подякувати 3D-coat цього року.

Edited January 11 by jene

[AbnRanger]

I suggested a few modest UI changes for 2024, using a mockup done in Photoshop, to illustrate what they would look like. 

1) Move the Activity Bar to the location the Panel Bar is in Photoshop (they have similar functions and thus 3DCoat should have the Activity bar in a similar position, so most new users will be familiar with it's purpose right away), and be optionally displayed as it currently is (hovering over the icon reveals the panel contents directly over the right column), or like the panel bar in PS...to the left of the column (with a collapse icon at the top of the panel, the same way panels in PS can be collapsed). It would also be optionally displayed in a static fashion, or hideaway, like the Navigation bar is.

2) Move any List Menus (like the SHIFT and CTRL + SHIFT menus) to the Tool Bar and leave the MENU Bar only for Menu items (how it is done in Adobe apps and most every other app)

3) Replace the black background for asset panels like SHADERS and SMART MATERIALS with something more pleasant looking like Medium gray. 

4) Give text and UI elements room. Some things in the UI are still too crowded, including text bumping up against its boundaries

Anyone else agree or have anything else to add?

[Rygaard]

On 1/11/2024 at 2:11 AM, jene said:

I think it is intuitive to move the search icon to the right.

anyone, how do you think about this?

First of all, Happy New Year to everyone!

I would like to comment on the search icon to all the right.
With all due respect to your opinion, but I disagree about repositioning the search button to the right (like the image above with the red arrow).
I think it would be a little dangerous.

In my humble opinion, the biggest reason for this is that currently there is already a delete button (trash bin) on the right and this means that there would be a great possibility of unpleasant situations happening.

Imagine the following situation.
The user is working and for some reason, either due to distraction or a rush to click on the search button...
then the user accidentally and instead of clicking on the search button, unfortunately the mouse cursor goes a little further to the side and ends up clicking where? That's right, the delete button!

I speak from my own experience with this type of unpleasant situation...
because in the tool options palette (talking about Brushes), in the modifiers bar there are 3 buttons (two arrow buttons: up and down to reposition the modifiers and a delete button on the right)
and it has happened several times I pressed the delete button trying to press the arrow button to reposition the modify in the palette because in my rush or distraction the mouse was positioned right between the two buttons.
So I accidentally deleted the modifier (losing everything I had done) and that is very terrible in every way.

On 1/11/2024 at 2:11 AM, jene said:

search tool is actually convenient. it is a good thing.  but it is not main tool.

I agree with you that this functionality is not the main one.
But repositioning this functionality next to a delete button wouldn't be so good (dangerous).


Just an opinion...
Perhaps... it could be in Second position after the new layer button (because at the moment...  it has the Merge layer bellow button on the side of the Group Layers button)
new layer --- SEARCH --- group Layers --- merge bellow

The placement of this can also be a matter of taste, but in my case...
if I can prevent a feature that I use a lot from being next to a delete or merge button, I would personally avoid it so as not to cause me problems.

By the way...
It would be wonderful if the user could customize the order of these commands (buttons). Then the user himself would decide the positioning.

[Elemeno]

quads for surface mode ,
modelling tools to function a lot like current modelling software maya max blender etc ,
modelling ,retopo merged with sculpt room as tools not rooms to make life alot easier , importing from room to room just confuses and lengthens the whole process
improvements to paint room like better ui , proper layer system (substance painter,photoshop etc)

black and white mask tools ...

submenus could be arranged properly for example baking options inside EDIT menu should be placed under baking , little things like this really confuse new users ... 

baked images to be under a sublayer away from painting layers but still allow them to be edited ,

simplify making smart materials , cleaner writing and explanations  about how to do these things inside the menu .

 

[ebitz]

Experiencing some interface issues in 2024 beta mostly resulting from "full screen mode". Number field pop ups do not display in full screen mode. Windows file manager will not become focused sometimes when trying to load a file if in full screen mode. Enter full screen mode with a mesh in scene. Click the transform tool then the "X" of the scale option. The value field is not visible. Exit full screen mode... value field now visible. The Right click menu will show in the viewport, but sometimes the functions in the menu do not work. This is unpredictable. The right click menu over a sculpt tree layer works fine. Small request. Could we stop the left Tool panel from reappearing after switching the "Toggle/pop up windows" with the tab key on and off? I have the "hide tool panel" option checked in preferences. The tool panel now stays hidden when switching rooms which is GREAT, but expected behavior is to never see the tool panel again until I check it back on in the preferences and/or call it up manually from viewport. 

Also having trouble assigning hotkeys for brushes. For example, redefining the Transform tool to "T" does nothing. It does not update in the tool pop up and does nothing in the viewport. However if I assign a hotkey to a main menu item or right click menu, it seems to work.

I am running 3dcoat with a new home folder and fresh install as well.

[digman]

Windows 2024_02 beta.

First thanks for your Work to improve the interface.

The location of the Activity Bar in a vertical position interferes with selecting the sculpt layers panel or any other panels at the top.

You have to navigate around it so the selections in the Activity Panel do not popup and hide the layers panel or what panels you have there.

It is tedious to navigate around it each time you want to select an item in the top panels.

I would suggest adding a hover pause for the mouse. If you stop your mouse cursor over the Activity Panel, then selections would be available. Keep your mouse moving and no selections popup.  

Another suggestion is also to give the Activity Panel with the ability for it to be a floating panel by user choice. This is one I personally like.

Edit: If you zoom over the Activity Panel like a rocket sometimes a selection will not pop up but that is a hit and miss. You would have to remember each time to fly like a rocket over the Activity Panel.

[wilson66]

Tested new beta, and wanted to post exactly about the problem with the new vertical activity bar as digman above. Pop-ups of the new activity bar should not overlap the activity bar itself, this makes navigation really awkward. The buttons of the activity bar should be visible at all times (move pop-ups to the left so buttons are still visible).

Making the activity bar a floating panel (as digman suggested) could be a good alternative idea also.

Edited January 17 by wilson66

[Rygaard]

Hi everyone!

19 hours ago, digman said:

First thanks for your Work to improve the interface.

The location of the Activity Bar in a vertical position interferes with selecting the sculpt layers panel or any other panels at the top.

You have to navigate around it so the selections in the Activity Panel do not popup and hide the layers panel or what panels you have there.

Yesterday I made a post precisely about the 3DCoat UI (By coincidence, in one of the topics I also talk about Activity Bar).

Therefore, I made a video in which I try to explain and demonstrate modifications and suggestions on the subject.

The topics in the video are:
00:00 - Introduction and the biggest problem with the interface.
00:44 - Menus at the top of the interface in a single button.
01:14 - Main Button to access all brushes, tools and commands.
01:28 - Button that contains features common to all brushes and tools (which could be a floating menu).
02:15 - All properties organized on the side.
02:37 - Shift, Ctrl+Shift and Ghosted features within a single button (which could be a floating menu).
03:17 - Mask Conditions functionalities within a single button (which could be a floating menu).
03:56 - Important changes to the Left Panel.
05:12 - Customized panel with quick access to the tools, brushes and commands most used by the user.
05:50 - Important changes to the Activity bar.
06:47 - Customizing the position of the viewport buttons.
07:12 - Navigation cube and with the option to have an .obj as a reference.
08:16 - Customizable user panel.
08:46 - On the right side of the top of the interface - area reserved for user customization.
09:07 - Rooms menu listing on the top right side of the interface.

If you want to see, please below is the thread link:

Thank you very much

[Gorbatovsky]

11 hours ago, Rygaard said:

Yesterday I made a post precisely about the 3DCoat UI

Thanks for the work you've done.
There are so many different proposals my head is spinning.

We have already realized that the UI topic is very important. Even so, very, very, very important.
Let's choose the best offers that can be implemented a month before the release.
First, 5 points in order of importance.

[Carlosan]

fewer clicks = more agility

UI design is not about icon location but flow of connectivity to perform task in an elegant way (easily understandable and ergonomically economical)

order of importance ? = work > flow

 

[Rygaard]

7 hours ago, Gorbatovsky said:

Thanks for the work you've done.
There are so many different proposals my head is spinning.

We have already realized that the UI topic is very important. Even so, very, very, very important.
Let's choose the best offers that can be implemented a month before the release.
First, 5 points in order of importance.

I appreciate your attention to me!
I agree....It's true! Sorry about that!
I understand that there are many suggestions, but I sincerely hope that these can help in some way to improve 3DCoat even further. Because that is my true intention.

Speaking of topics... It's been a while since I created a topic related to the 3DCoat UI, in which I try to present and explain suggestions aimed at the interface.
There I try to explain the reason for each suggestion and what they would provide within the program in relation to usability.

[digman]

5 hours ago, Carlosan said:

fewer clicks = more agility

UI design is not about icon location but flow of connectivity to perform task in an elegant way (easily understandable and ergonomically economical)

order of importance ? = work > flow

 

Agree with Carlosan's statement.

Now on to my opinion. Everything I need is at my fingertips and is or can be exposed in the current interface. 

I personally do not like tools being buried and more tools buried under those tools.

Your opinion might be different and that is ok and we all have what we consider a good interface, I am just giving my likes. 

My Sculpting Room. Setup as I like it. 

On the left the Tool options panel

On the right, Symmetry, Presets, Curves and Curves window.

To the far right the panels I like open.

Top menu with easy to access brush parameters and Shift and Control Shift settings plus the normal menus that most programs have.

Changing rooms if you do not like the exposed rooms list you can make it a drop list in preferences.  

Plus there is the quick access menu through pressing the spacebar.

Does the above mean there is no room for improvement of course not but just giving my own user likes.

EDIT: I see that Rygaard's post came up before mine so please do not take it as a criticizing of his post or his hard work on improvement suggestions, this is just my likes.

 

 

[Rygaard]

6 hours ago, Carlosan said:

fewer clicks = more agility

UI design is not about icon location but flow of connectivity to perform task in an elegant way (easily understandable and ergonomically economical)

order of importance ? = work > flow

 

 

22 minutes ago, digman said:

Your opinion might be different and that is ok and we all have what we consider a good interface, I am just giving my likes. 

I promise I won't say anything else about UI here because this topic is related to something else.

It's true, everyone has an opinion and that's amazing! I completely respect any opinion! Plurality is important to arrive at something that everyone can benefit from!

But....I hope @Oleg_Shapo doesn't mind me sharing with everyone what I told him about the UI suggestions:

"
     My main objective was to do something (from my own experience using 3DCoat) in which new users who have never used the program,
and of course also users who already use 3DCoat, can get a good read of the program on their first contact.

This means that with a cleaner interface, in which the functionalities are not cluttered in the same place (this causes confusion and even interface elements become cut off or without visibility),
but rather organized or grouped into something that does sense to the user, this would result in a more user-friendly and easy-to-use interface.

Apart from the fact that all the things suggested would actually be important features that would incredibly help the user's workflow within the program, and at the same time the user would do the work they needed to do faster.

Therefore, the main objectives of this suggested UI was exclusively to make the interface:
1) Cleaner (visual),
2) Completely organized aimed at improving the users' workflow through what was suggested (more user-friendly interface) and...
3) With many customization options.
"

In the end....
It's all based on work > flow and easy to use.
I think we are speaking in different languages, but with the same objective.

[digman]

To Rygaard:

Please continue your input. Here or in your specific post. That is what I like about the forums here, free to offer opinions and suggestions in a respectful manner which you have done and me as well plus Carlosan.

We all have as you said the same objective... a better 3DC experience.

[Rygaard]

2 hours ago, digman said:

To Rygaard:

Please continue your input. Here or in your specific post. That is what I like about the forums here, free to offer opinions and suggestions in a respectful manner which you have done and me as well plus Carlosan.

We all have as you said the same objective... a better 3DC experience.

@digman Yes definitely! I completely agree with you! All opinions and healthy and respectful discussions are welcome!
By the way, I just created a private playlist (youtube) and it includes the 3DCoat UI suggestions video.
The link is:
https://youtu.be/tNhuAmu-gUw

Thank you very much!

[Elemeno]

updated ui would be amazing!

[Jones C]

IMHO, since we have left hand dominant user, right hand dominant user, mouse user, drawing tablet user, display tablet user, maybe a near fully customizable flexible UI could solve the placement issue. Every panels can be relocated, docked, display or hidden. Every button can be drag out from its original location as a copy, and place where ever user is comfortable with. A right hand user using a display tablet will likely have all panels docked on the right hand side, so the hand don't have to travel to the far left of the screen to access certain tool or parameter.

[Sorn]

46 minutes ago, Jones C said:

IMHO, since we have left hand dominant user, right hand dominant user, mouse user, drawing tablet user, display tablet user, maybe a near fully customizable flexible UI could solve the placement issue. Every panels can be relocated, docked, display or hidden. Every button can be drag out from its original location as a copy, and place where ever user is comfortable with. A right hand user using a display tablet will likely have all panels docked on the right hand side, so the hand don't have to travel to the far left of the screen to access certain tool or parameter.

And some users just want different UI setup for different sessions, or for fun even. The UI should be set up by the user, not the engineers.

When developers ask for feedback on UI I get cold sweats. Like when a client wants to "help" with colours.
We'd all be better off if they stopped concerning themselves about "the UI" in any shape or form. Please give us a UI we can tweak at will, and stable (no crashes), thanks very much. That's it.
 

Edited January 19 by Sorn

[AbnRanger]

1 hour ago, Sorn said:

And some users just want different UI setup for different sessions, or for fun even. The UI should be set up by the user, not the engineers.

When developers ask for feedback on UI I get cold sweats. Like when a client wants to "help" with colours.
We'd all be better off if they stopped concerning themselves about "the UI" in any shape or form. Please give us a UI we can tweak at will, and stable (no crashes), thanks very much. That's it.
 

And which 3D app does this, currently? 3DCoat allows for a LOT of user customization and in fact let's the user toggle into a totally blank UI, so that you can just call up the tools and panels directly to your fingertips whenever you want them. It doesn't get more uncluttered than that...for all the critics who claim the 3DCoat UI is too cluttered.

[Sorn]

14 minutes ago, AbnRanger said:

And which 3D app does this, currently? 3DCoat allows for a LOT of user customization and in fact let's the user toggle into a totally blank UI, so that you can just call up the tools and panels directly to your fingertips whenever you want them. It doesn't get more uncluttered than that...for all the critics who claim the 3DCoat UI is too cluttered.

I don't know exactly what to answer to that... question? Nor do I see anything to do with what I said, frankly.

My concern would be: the UI should be totally configurable by the users. All panels, tools, bars, windows... the lot. On any 3D software that should be the aim. And engineers should focus on making that possible, not on the possible arrangement combinations of tools and helpers on the screen.

Edited January 19 by Sorn

[Gorbatovsky]

1 hour ago, AbnRanger said:

And which 3D app does this, currently?

3DCoat allow change UI.
See here, please. Rygaard has made such changes that it is impossible to recognize our program.

[Sorn]

Let me try this again, about the UI:

What I'd like is a drag'n'drop of everything, from panels, to bars, to windows, palettes... to be able to place them, to detach them from the main UI to make floating panels/windows and be able to attach them back again to the main UI and, if at all possible, to be able to move windows to another monitor and keep focus on them whilst working (so not having to click on the window to interact within it with the mouse/pen).

The point is not to be able to set up different layouts to work with, but to do this on the fly, as it were, while working on something. In that maner, at any given time, the user can adjust, adapt 3DCoat to the user's needs.

In conclusion: user should be able, at any given time, to place anything anywhere, add or remove, dock and un-dock, while working. That to me should be the aim of the engineers of any 3D application. Give your users the freedom to use your tools however they please, let them see what works best. Provide sensible defaults (ask feedback for defaults so it's easier for newcomers to get a grasp of what's what) and let the users evolve their UI while they work and play.

Hopefully this is not controversial. Otherwise I don't know what to say, really.

Edit: I forgot one thing, a mode with a button on the interface and keyboard shortcut (so doable with keyboard and mouse/pen at user's discretion) to toggle everything off and back in place as it was to make the window clean of everything and anything but the geometry or working asset at the moment of the toggle activation should be implemented as well.
Again, to me, all efforts of the engineers should ideally be concentrated in making all of the above possible, even in stages if necessary until that is a reality. Spending time with UI setups is going to be an endless effort, as new needs and worflows arise, particular cases appear, niche opportunities present themselves, user idiosyncrasies... let them free, they'll invent new workflows with your tools, new combinations: use your users to show you and other what your tools can do instead of anticipating what they might do and how they may do it.
There, that'd be all.

Edit (2): Nope!
I also forgot the super-promise-it's-for-sure-the-last-thing: text should be scalable at all places, and colour of the interface, panels, all of it should be easily changed too. Even while working, without having to restart the application.
Now it's final. Final final. Last definitely final.

Edited January 20 by Sorn

[digman]

Continuity of an interface is very important. 3DCoat as any application has a continuity of the interface. This also means that lots of 3DCoat tutorials remain on the most part still useable for a person to watch. 

As mentioned in my other post, nearly all tools are at my fingertips and under the Windows menu are a number of panels that can be exposed to the user and can be positioned dragged around the interface.

The right panels can be customized by adding or taking away panels.

Now new rooms can be created and you can customize the UI in that room separately as well. Also store any room's page's layout and load it.

Sorn's idea in effect would advance this even more and at the same time "does not change" the default core interface but give the user some more ability to move things around.

I do have a few tweaking ideas but that is for later when creating a new room.

 

[AbnRanger]

23 hours ago, Sorn said:

I don't know exactly what to answer to that... question? Nor do I see anything to do with what I said, frankly.

My concern would be: the UI should be totally configurable by the users. All panels, tools, bars, windows... the lot. On any 3D software that should be the aim. And engineers should focus on making that possible, not on the possible arrangement combinations of tools and helpers on the screen.

What I meant was, which 3D application provides total customization? None, that I am aware of. Some offer a lot of customization, but with limits. I think 3DCoat falls into this category, too. Therefore, total customization may be too extreme of a goal, especially considering that Andrew is not working on a total UI overhaul/reconstruction. What is planned is just more incremental improvements, but with more focus than normal. There is some work on Paint Layers intended, such as adding Clipping masks ala Photoshop (with mask thumbnails) and such, so now is a good time to make suggestions and requests for things in this area, prior to the 2024 release. 

 

[Sorn]

Exactly my thoughts, @digman.

I'd let the UI as is, if it depended on me. And allocate some time to develop what would be needed to make it as plastic as possible, as stated before. When ready, switch the interface with the new, using the current one's layouts as the default presets of the new. Fix current needs if urgent, really needed, as @AbnRanger states, in the interim. But keep those fixes at the most basic and minimum: the truly necessary for right now.

I do understand, nonetheless, that in most DCC programs, some tools ARE the interface, they are coded for the code that manages the interface we see. So sometimes it's far from an easy switch. Many (if not possibly all) tools would need to be touched, and some testing afterwards would be needed to see if everything works fine. And that, assuming the code of the "new" engine for the interface is flawless (it seldom is, by no one, on the first iterations).

So here we are. What do I propose, then? Well, leave the UI alone, focus on a mid-term overhaul of the interface code to make it plastic (all dockable, un-dockable, resizable, respositionable, "live" colour coding of the interface with a panel, font choosing and scaling free and "live" (as in no reboot), the whole lot). In the mid term, it's an overhead of work, interfering with current plans of development. With the right plan, allocation of hours/resources weekly, as time goes by, while being tested in stages, it will come to fruition. Once that is done, you have a magnificent platform, with ABSOLUTE freedom for users and no more wondering about what tool goes where, and all things related. Also, users will give another level of feedback too, and new workflows will naturally appear. Many puppies will lick our faces happily and the sunshine, through the window facing the garden, will be warm and cosy forever... that kind of thing.

I think of this as an investment in the mid-term/future rather than a "solution" for the present, a solution for the present that still takes resources now and will inevitably will come to bite us again, and again, as time passes, new tools emerge, new workflows are needed.

That'd be all from me on the matter. I hope it inspires good things and if nothing I said is feasible or deemed necessary, let's all move along and do some 3D stuff anyway.

Edited January 20 by Sorn

[Sorn]

@AbnRanger, let me politely decline to answer your reasonable inquiry about an example(s) of other DCC software with similar interfaces as the one I'm suggesting. Let me tell you why, though; fair is fair.

I do know of some, several, for DCC and other fields. But presenting them as examples will easily turn the discussion into a direct comparison about features and workflow paradigms between them and 3DCoat. Thus, rendering the discussion about UI pointless and orphan, mixed up in a horrific cacophony of all sorts of strong opinions about software preferences. Maybe you and I would manage to restrain ourselves, barely, but this is a public forum. It doesn't end well.

Second, and most importantly, I really don't care at all about what other DCC software do or not do if I'm thinking about this one: I'm suggesting what I would do if I could, to make the best possible UI for 3DCoat. That, in turn, would possibly be the envy of everyone else, but that is absolutely not my concern. I really don't care if no one has done it before, or if everybody has already implemented it. I'm just stating what my preference is and I try to articulate it in case it makes sense to others and the developers, who knows, maybe pick some ideas from here or refine some of their own, or steer an internal development already underway in this direction. Or nudge them into committing to it if on the fence. They'd possibly already have thought about it, it's not that these fine developers are completely new to this or are totally clueless. They seem a pretty capable bunch.  

I won't be angry nor disappointed if none of this gets done. But I really don't care if others do it or not. I want 3DCoat to do it, and that's what my focus is.

In the past I've been in talks about similar issues with developers of other software, commercial or internal, and I tend to explain the same thing. Sometimes the feedback turns into "here, the limitations are those for us, and a complete overhaul is not possible at this stage. How would we make it as close as possible? Would that work?... and so on". At other times it's absolutely out of the question for some reason and it's fine. And sometimes they like what's already in place and the users too, so no harm done.

Still, I'm right and you are not! Nah, all is fine.

Edited January 20 by Sorn

[Carlosan]

Check Help > Update Manager

3DCoat-2024-01
Mon Jan 8 15:05:07 2024 +0200

- This is preliminary beta of the 3DCoat 2024

Implementations:
- Search/filter icon in SculptTree, Retopo groups, Layers, Curves tree.
- The search/filter icon in any items container (presets, alphas, materials, models etc) to find the item quickly.
- More UI cleanup - distances, centering, edges rounding and so on.
- UI elements shapes are now Python-generated (if you want to modify - see data/textures/Frames24/buttons.py)
- Modeling Room: New tool "Edge Flow"
- UI updated, better looking tabs, buttons, more consistent style.

Improvements:
- Export for 3D printing->Export and open in Cura updated to support latest Cura versions.
- Retopo/Modeling Room: Improvement of tool Bridge
- Retopo/Modeling Room: Improvement of tool "Slide Edges"

Errors:
- Fixed problem when switching to the folder with big amount of presets takes a long time (except first time)
- Fixed possible instability in retopo/modeling (sometimes happens in select/transform)
- Fixed several UI bugs.
- Fixed retopo/modeling problems arisen in the 41 build.
- A workaround for a problem: "Under new macOS Sonoma, an input string dialog overlays the whole window."

[Elemeno]

a better ui workflow , im not really fused about the look of the ui just how it works ..,

alot of submenus have same options . EDIT has baking options , a good description of options would be nice

inside painting room having a baking section with complete options ,

alot of processes are confusing and not described very well ,

it needs building up again , sculpting and modelling should be on the same room , tools should be on the sculpting room ,

i know the comparisons constantly being made between the tool but having a zbrush style where modelling is a tool and still having the same room and not having to import this mesh to that room etc ...