Member Gilded Posted August 25, 2011 Member Share Posted August 25, 2011 My workflow's been Sculptiris (to make a sculpt obj), 3dcoat (to make a retopo obj with UVs), xNormal (bake any maps I need based on the two objs), 3dcoat (do any final details, texturing, etc with maps). A little bit all over the place but, I'm getting more reliable results (artifacts in 3dc bakes were becoming frustrating). I'd rather bake with xNormal as of now because there are a lot of settings and control. So far my results have been very smooth, but I mostly do normal map work and I believe you are looking for displacement, so this may not be a fruitful suggestion (but who knows). I've generated displacement maps and they seem to take the triangulation into account (there may be a setting to get what you want though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I'd rather bake with xNormal as of now because there are a lot of settings and control. So far my results have been very smooth, but I mostly do normal map work and I believe you are looking for displacement, so this may not be a fruitful suggestion (but who knows). I've generated displacement maps and they seem to take the triangulation into account (there may be a setting to get what you want though). I've actually spent days this past weekend fighting with 3DC, xNormal, LightWave, and even max, trying to get a decent displacement map for my current character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member MADjestic Posted August 26, 2011 Member Share Posted August 26, 2011 Does this capture helps? Normally, a renderer can smooth these triangles. But when projecting a topo cage on it... or when just dropping it to hi density voxels... ?? I know, smoothed 3dcoat rendering when baking can stop it. Indeed, losing crispness. But when I used displacement map (MV baking), here again, just more blurred which is worst. Hmm, I've been working through the same problem but from a completely different perspective - doing some Houdini terrain generation problem (high-res texture baked onto lowres poly model). My solution was to generate a high-res normal map (for which I used render stage subdivision (render as subdivision surface), which reduces the mesh size to the size of a ray sample) and applied the normal map to get final vertices normals, while displacement map was used to do the actual vertices displacement. Once again: 1) Render a high-res normal map 2) Apply it to get final normals, together with displacement map, in the shader of your model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted August 26, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted August 26, 2011 @MADjestic lol, this is my usual method. Real displacement for 3-4 subdivision levels, a second normal (or better for cycles) displ map, baked from this point of subdivisions. It's important for physically correct results. If not, here, notice how unnatural bumps look. http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8340&view=findpost&p=64166 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 26, 2011 Reputable Contributor Share Posted August 26, 2011 I've actually spent days this past weekend fighting with 3DC, xNormal, LightWave, and even max, trying to get a decent displacement map for my current character. Phil, what I would try to do is bake the character without the hair...that should be easy enough with any of those tools. If not, then something is awry in the process. But with the Hair, screw displacement maps, in my opinion. Either keep it low poly (no displacement) w/ Normal maps or just make it a hair cap, and give it as much geometry as needed. That's what I did with my little Hobbit character's hair (that I used the Muscles tool to sculpt). I didn't fool with displacement. You can assign a proxy to it with most renders, which will then render the high res at render time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Phil, what I would try to do is bake the character without the hair...that should be easy enough with any of those tools. If not, then something is awry in the process. But with the Hair, screw displacement maps, in my opinion. Either keep it low poly (no displacement) w/ Normal maps or just make it a hair cap, and give it as much geometry as needed. That's what I did with my little Hobbit character's hair (that I used the Muscles tool to sculpt). I didn't fool with displacement. You can assign a proxy to it with most renders, which will then render the high res at render time. It's not just the hair, the export form 3DC is too flat all over but actually some parts of the face looked the weirdest. Some parts had such low depth that I would increase it in LW, then I'd go look at her face and it was blown up like she had the worlds worst peanut allergy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted August 26, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted August 26, 2011 Sculptris is good for free but opinions about it shouldn't really be in this thread really unless it's discussion about tools Farsthary is working on or things can go offtopic. I like the suggestion of a crease brush though which would be useful. One thing i think would work well is dropdown modes so with tools you have variations and can use the same tool in a few different ways, it also lets the GUI stay simple rather than a huge menu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Hi guys A couple of Good news! new updates in the beta builds include our latest improvements and stabilization to LiveClay tools and also the new brushes: Wrinkle (can do creases like in Sculptris, use large displacements) , Tube (strong normal extrusion) and Snake (yes, what you have being waiting for ) http://farsthary.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/snake-brush-a-much-awaited-liveclay-feature/ cheers Farsthary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted August 27, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted August 27, 2011 Not the OSX build. Snake works terribly. BTW Raul. Where is the build tool, the move tool, and the remesher (reducer) +and - ? I mean the basic tools to start with? You probably already noticed that I'm somehow not a positive guy. This is correct. I never regret saying NOW, I regret for lot of YES actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member wailingmonkey Posted August 27, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted August 27, 2011 what a thoughtful response to the sharing of positive information, michalis! </sarcasm> *edit* after seeing your own edit, evidently you are aware of your own tendency for drama! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Not the OSX build. Snake works terribly. BTW Raul. Where is the build tool, the move tool, and the remesher (reducer) +and - ? I mean the basic tools to start with? You probably already noticed that I'm somehow not a positive guy. This is correct. I never regret saying NOW, I regret for lot of YES actually. Ops, sorry, I'm not responsible for cross platform builds.... I will pass your complain The build tool? have you tried LiveClay? it can quickly build up layers of fresh mesh...is the most basic and the most important brush to start with, anyway, every artist is free to have an own workflow. The Move tool is on the way, and the Remesher too, along with other goodies, they can be quickly added... hey, those are Beta tools that takes time to develop and absolutely out of schedule, is systematically underestimated the complexity of creating software and improvements takes place STEP BY STEP, tool by tool ... or do you prefer Autodesk like only annualy updates? "Snake works terribly" please send me some screenshots and/or use case that I have missed, remember I'm not a sculptor so I can easily miss testings...that's why is released to get your feedback. (EDIT: I'm aware of a flattening effect caused by non volume conservation, is something I will definately will work on) There's a spanish saying: "A drop of honey attracts more flies than a gallon of gall" (in spanish is more poetic ) I appreciate your honesty and sharing your behavior philosophy but remember that the "means" is as important as the "message" itself, it does not help none to use harsh words for file a complain and constructive critics are better listened than rants ... now I have shared with you my "behavior philosophy" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I found WrinkleClay works very well for stuff like this: BTW there's a similar English expression, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted August 28, 2011 Reputable Contributor Share Posted August 28, 2011 ...similar expression as the Proverb (15:1) that says "A gentle answer deflects anger, but harsh words make tempers flare." I forget it sometimes, but it's a good principle, nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member MADjestic Posted August 29, 2011 Member Share Posted August 29, 2011 Hi guys A couple of Good news! new updates in the beta builds include our latest improvements and stabilization to LiveClay tools and also the new brushes: Wrinkle (can do creases like in Sculptris, use large displacements) , Tube (strong normal extrusion) and Snake (yes, what you have being waiting for ) http://farsthary.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/snake-brush-a-much-awaited-liveclay-feature/ cheers Farsthary Great news, Raul! Thanks for your great work. LiveClay and Crease-like brush functionality were some of the longest awaited features for me Yay! As far as some impatient words written above - yes, development process takes time, especially knowing how it works with the story of 3D Coat - is it even a surprise? Nevertheless, I totally understand that "can't wait" feeling - seeing 3DCoat shaping up and being "almost there" - it's almost painful too see some feature not being quite there yet or or missing, or installing the latest build and finding something broken... Oh well, when was it not the case with betas? So, please excuse the impatience and emotions - it's so human and understandable and, ironically, comes out of best intentions, isn't it? Or it's just a bad demeanor Best wishes, Vlad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 More good news guys Dedicated Crease brush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member MADjestic Posted August 29, 2011 Member Share Posted August 29, 2011 More good news guys Dedicated Crease brush Woohoo! Is it in the builds yet? My hands are itching! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Sandro Borg Posted August 30, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted August 30, 2011 Crease tool looks awesome! Can't wait to try it out. Thanks again for all the great work you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted August 31, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted August 31, 2011 @ farsthary My question, once again. How can I add density on specific places without building anything? The opposite of reduce tool (should exist on ctrl+tool) Tools with 0 value still affect surfaces. Should I report it as a bug? I did it lol. "The build tool? have you tried LiveClay? it can quickly build up layers of fresh mesh...is the most basic and the most important brush to start with, anyway, every artist is free to have an own workflow." well, free... this depends on your work as well. The basic digital tools, the build, smooth(with some flatten behavior), grab, pinch and now pinch +- (Crease in our case which looks good). Clay tool as basic, where did you read this? Of course we need some more tools but this doesn't make them basics. In fact there're two only real basic tools. The grab tool and the reducer/better remesher +-. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 @ farsthary My question, once again. How can I add density on specific places without building anything? The opposite of reduce tool (should exist on ctrl+tool) Tools with 0 value still affect surfaces. Should I report it as a bug? I did it lol. "The build tool? have you tried LiveClay? it can quickly build up layers of fresh mesh...is the most basic and the most important brush to start with, anyway, every artist is free to have an own workflow." well, free... this depends on your work as well. The basic digital tools, the build, smooth(with some flatten behavior), grab, pinch and now pinch +- (Crease in our case which looks good). Clay tool as basic, where did you read this? Of course we need some more tools but this doesn't make them basics. In fact there're two only real basic tools. The grab tool and the reducer/better remesher +-. Hi Michalis Oh yes, I have being able to replicate the issue, you're right, it should not deform with Depth 0 , don't worry, I will fix it thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Hi guys! Good news! big brush pack, take a visit at my site! http://farsthary.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/big-brush-pack/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member spacepainter Posted September 1, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted September 1, 2011 Thanks, good to see two geniuses collide. Lots of love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Digital777 Posted September 1, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted September 1, 2011 Wow, I was guessing something amazing was in the works. Every tool looks like it will be really useful, great work farsthary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member michalis Posted September 1, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted September 1, 2011 Now you're talking farsthary. :clapping: What are the limits (poly count) of this approach? I haven't reach them so far. lol. Poly count isn't the appropriate word in this case. But how dense meshes can be in particular parts? Much more than in sculptris, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted September 1, 2011 Contributor Share Posted September 1, 2011 Great work! Update your donation page to include 3D-Coat as well as Blender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted September 1, 2011 Contributor Share Posted September 1, 2011 Wow,Crease tool in new video looks even better than in last video. It looks smoother and faster,less lumpy with more constant pressure. Congratulations Farsthary! Liveclay toolset is building up in strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member wailingmonkey Posted September 1, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted September 1, 2011 these are looking fantastic! (really great sense of clay...digital, or otherwise) I think it's been suggested that brush management will soon need to be addressed, but I might also suggest that some of these brushes are just begging for a more robust 'interpolate'(smooth stroke) capability...something closer to the power of Zbrush's lazybrush for speed and falloff/strength. I can see how pulling out the rope brush, etc. will be a blast, but having true control over the stroke of that pull will really allow much greater power to the artist. great work, farsthary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor tree321 Posted September 1, 2011 Contributor Share Posted September 1, 2011 [quote name='wailingmonkey' "might also suggest that some of these brushes are just begging for a more robust 'interpolate'(smooth stroke) capability...something closer to the power of Zbrush's lazybrush for speed and falloff/strength." I agree wailingmonkey, a "lazy mouse type function is sorely needed in Coat.It is number one on my request list.I occasionally use "lazyNezumi" for more precise strokes, but it can be a pain to use as it is not fully integrated in 3DCoat.A repeat stroke function would also be a nice addition. Just one more thing; How's the radial symmetry feature coming along Farsthary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 [quote name='wailingmonkey' "might also suggest that some of these brushes are just begging for a more robust 'interpolate'(smooth stroke) capability...something closer to the power of Zbrush's lazybrush for speed and falloff/strength." I agree wailingmonkey, a "lazy mouse type function is sorely needed in Coat.It is number one on my request list.I occasionally use "lazyNezumi" for more precise strokes, but it can be a pain to use as it is not fully integrated in 3DCoat.A repeat stroke function would also be a nice addition. Just one more thing; How's the radial symmetry feature coming along Farsthary? In order to fully integrate Radial Symmetry, few changes must be made in 3DCoat, I show an early feature experimment, but don't worry, it will be soon implemented And regarding the Lazy mouse option, that feature is already there from long ago in 3Dcoat, if you activate interpolate option you can get any presicion level in the stroking and the "Lazy mouse" experience aswell, in fact, I think I have usd that in the videos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member wailingmonkey Posted September 1, 2011 Advanced Member Share Posted September 1, 2011 farsthary...I would have to respectfully disagree that the fidelity of Zbrush's lazymouse has been equaled by 'interpolate'. Even affecting/changing the brush options in 'spacing' to attempt greater control helps, but is a bit of a hack (and if your mouse leaves the surface of the model in screen-space, the stroke will come to an abrupt halt). For me, at least, it's a matter of 'dampening' the stroke (or having control over averaging it out) not only as it travels along the stroke path dictated by the mouse/stylus, but also there's an innate 'wiggle' for lack of a better term, perpendicular to the stroke direction that needs addressing. So basically, it's not just controlling the speed that I'd hope for, but also averaging my stylus 'wiggle' as the cursor travels over the geometry in screen space. Hope that makes sense, but if you can try Zbrush's lazymouse, and then compare to 3DC, I hope you'll notice the difference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farsthary Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 farsthary...I would have to respectfully disagree that the fidelity of Zbrush's lazymouse has been equaled by 'interpolate'. Even affecting/changing the brush options in 'spacing' to attempt greater control helps, but is a bit of a hack (and if your mouse leaves the surface of the model in screen-space, the stroke will come to an abrupt halt). For me, at least, it's a matter of 'dampening' the stroke (or having control over averaging it out) not only as it travels along the stroke path dictated by the mouse/stylus, but also there's an innate 'wiggle' for lack of a better term, perpendicular to the stroke direction that needs addressing. So basically, it's not just controlling the speed that I'd hope for, but also averaging my stylus 'wiggle' as the cursor travels over the geometry in screen space. Hope that makes sense, but if you can try Zbrush's lazymouse, and then compare to 3DC, I hope you'll notice the difference... Oh, I will have to try it Zbrush.... also I think I know what you are talking about....taking note Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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