3D-Coat 3.2 updates thread.

[digman]

I am a very patient person.Plex does need to be finish as you stated. I use a lot of 3D type software and unfortunately 3DCoat at the present time is the buggiest. I find myself saying at times "Oh, what's going to go wrong this time"

3DCoat is very powerfull but some of the bugs do hold it back from it's full potential. I would suggest after plex, please kill the bugs and then add some of the features that are addressed in this forum thread.

I will add my own request, Snapping or resnapping would not produce the tangled mess in does when vertices are close together plus have a way for you to see through the voxels to the underlying retopo mesh.

edit: I havn't posted any bug reports lately as most of them are already covered by other users...

[JamesE]

Voxels are great for what they can do, but they are also a major impediment to 3DC for what they can't do, or struggle to do....and that is to sculpt a high detail model with a deadline in mind. Merge operations are as lengthy as rendering out an entire animation sequence. Even if Multi-threading was introduced into the equation, the wait times would still be unreasonably slow. I think we all thought Voxels was the Holy Grail of Sculpting, but as it turns out, it is not...not even on a beefy system.

It's really more about knowing their limitations and using 3dc for its strengths. Same as any other software. Fron the first voxel sculpt I did I realized what the limitations were. That is why none of the stuff I build in voxels goes beyond a medium resolution of detail. 3dc has become a very important part of my modeling process, but it is not the one stop shop people would like it to be. But being realistic for a second, there aren't any apps out there that are - which is why most of us use several tools during the creation process. 3dc gets most of my blockout work. If I want details I go to zbrush. That's a pretty sweet pipeline for me. My understanding is that voxels are more taxing on a system than regular polygon sculpting so realistically, I can't expect andrew to pull zbrush levels of performance out of a magic bag. So I use 3dc for what it is good at and happily switch tools as I need to, same as I've always done.

[GED]

Im surprised users are trying to tell the developer what to drop, make a suggestion sure but he deserves more respect than to just be told what to do according to our personal frustrations with parts of the software. Id love it if 3dc was as good as mudbox or zbrush at high detail sculpting but truth is if you want the features that those programs excel at then the closest you will get is to use them, 3dc has its own strengths and weaknesses just like they do. Hopefully the gap will narrow and those weaknesses become less of an issue over time but I applaud 3dc for what it is currently capable of.

[splodge]

Quite a few people lately popping up and requesting some really far out stuff. It's getting so bad that I'm half expecting some new guy to pop up and suggest that Andrew programs a cure for cancer.

Let's just have him work on the common cold for now!

achoo..

[Lawless]

Voxels have been around a long time. I think what Andrew has done with voxels is great, but I think that voxels need better hardware, not better coding.

Now - on the other hand - Ptex is a 'can do', a reachable target. I'm comfortable with what he see's fit.

Oh, I might as well throw this in: 3DCoat needs someone fluent English speaking person to go through the program AND the website and clean it all up.

That is a 'can do' reachable target too

-B

[AbnRanger]

Im surprised users are trying to tell the developer what to drop, make a suggestion sure but he deserves more respect than to just be told what to do according to our personal frustrations with parts of the software. Id love it if 3dc was as good as mudbox or zbrush at high detail sculpting but truth is if you want the features that those programs excel at then the closest you will get is to use them, 3dc has its own strengths and weaknesses just like they do. Hopefully the gap will narrow and those weaknesses become less of an issue over time but I applaud 3dc for what it is currently capable of.

Look...folks here are the ones who suggested Ptex in the first place. Andrew has been working on the Ptex format, and as he stated, he's close to being finished on that. My suggestion was thereafter, to suspend any further development efforts on it for a while, so he can focus on the core aspects and impediments of the application. 3DC will not be judged in the industry by it's Ptex performance. But it is being weighed chiefly by it's sculpting performance. Word gets around in the industry when other users voice the limitations it currently has. That's why I believe those concerns deserve a higher priority than fringe goodies, and yet unsupported formats.

I made no demands, just voicing my opinion (albeit a frustrated one) and offering suggestions like everyone else.

It's really more about knowing their limitations and using 3dc for its strengths. Same as any other software. Fron the first voxel sculpt I did I realized what the limitations were. That is why none of the stuff I build in voxels goes beyond a medium resolution of detail. 3dc has become a very important part of my modeling process, but it is not the one stop shop people would like it to be. But being realistic for a second, there aren't any apps out there that are - which is why most of us use several tools during the creation process. 3dc gets most of my blockout work. If I want details I go to zbrush. That's a pretty sweet pipeline for me. My understanding is that voxels are more taxing on a system than regular polygon sculpting so realistically, I can't expect andrew to pull zbrush levels of performance out of a magic bag. So I use 3dc for what it is good at and happily switch tools as I need to, same as I've always done.

I understand what you're saying, but nevertheless every software application improves from release to release either by addressing it's weaknesses, offering new features, or both. All I'm suggesting is that we temper our desire for new goodies until those weaknesses currently within the application are addressed. They deserve a higher priority, in my opinion.

Mudbox was quite slow compared to ZBrush for it's first year or two in the industry, and had no painting capability. Those were it's glaring weaknesses...and in MB 2009, they were soundly addressed. With proper focus, I'm sure Andrew can develop solid solutions as well...we just need to stop requesting things that will distract him and hinder his progress in those areas.

[ifxs]

The only big problem I keep having : SpaceNavigator is totally unusable on the Mac - at least on every Mac I have tested 3DCoat on. Does anyone know if Andrew is planning a fix for this ?

I've been going through this for a while now, The space navigator issue is and has been in 3DC for A LONG TIME NOW.

check the following thread... seems like it was fixed for windows, but the MAC 3DC doesn't seem to get the same attention as Win(market share related likely), but still, IMO dont claim it works with MAC in the manual or on the website if it doesn't, and IT DOESN'T!

http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4645

that URL will take you to one of a number of threads regarding the issue for Space NAvigator and Mac 3D Coat :-( PLEASE FIX THIS, I can use my navigator with every other 3D app I use in OSX just fine, except for 3DC... Certainly glad it was fixed for windows users though...

another URL here regarding the issue:

**************************************************************************

BTW...on the merge issue (lack of Multi-threading for the task)...I restarted on my little Hobbit character, wanting to showcase something of note for 3DC, and after starting fresh from surface mode and only a few brush strokes, I take Andrew's advice to hit ENTER...guess how long I had to wait? 3hrs had passed and it was still in full choke mode. I decided to kill 3DC in Task Manager. There is no way to get mid-high level detail on a character sculpt done in Voxels with a tight deadline. You are asking for trouble if you do. You have to exercise a litany of workarounds...including hiding most of the object you're working on. Voxels choke well before either MB or ZB will...and waiting hours for surface mode to either update or merge is a major no-go.

I think the best answer right now is to drop Ptex development for a spell, as there is scant support for it (according to Artman, it already works for regular obj exporting)...mirror the surface tools to the Sculpt room, and focus on improving that toolset until sculpting is competitive with Mudbox and ZBrush.

Voxels are great for what they can do, but they are also a major impediment to 3DC for what they can't do, or struggle to do....and that is to sculpt a high detail model with a deadline in mind. Merge operations are as lengthy as rendering out an entire animation sequence. Even if Multi-threading was introduced into the equation, the wait times would still be unreasonably slow. I think we all thought Voxels was the Holy Grail of Sculpting, but as it turns out, it is not...not even on a beefy system.

+1, Its a let down to enjoy 3DC so much, but then dread the time merges take when pushing it even close to the detail level I need from a sculpting app, HOURS NOT MINUTES for a single work session!

I do not enjoy having to rely on ZB for my fine detail work because anything past 20mil polys in vox mode is just unbearably slow... I too often have to take HOURS out of an 8 hour work session on a 20+mil vox sculpt just for merge bars still(even after the recent OSX update that improved it for OSX users, which is much appreciated Andrew, as this looks like it was a bug for OSX)

This issue has been spoken of often, and will likely still be mentioned as long as I see the majority of the tools in 3DC that I use residing on only 1 core in my 8 core system.... If this didnt waste hours of my time I would post about it... but it does, and it doesnt have to if performance optimization were a focus for the developers on 3DC.

3DC is my favorite sculpting app, I dont want to be forced out of 3DC every time I need a detailed sculpt.... and if performance was a concern/focus of the 3DC developers, I and others wouldn't have to look at 3DC as basically a robust version of z-spheres..... no offense, but honestly, we wouldnt have to constantly take out medium-res meshes into other sculpting apps if aspects like multithreading were added to 3DC....

3DC will not be judged in the industry by it's Ptex performance. But it is being weighed chiefly by it's sculpting performance. Word gets around in the industry when other users voice the limitations it currently has. That's why I believe those concerns deserve a higher priority than fringe goodies, and yet unsupported formats.

Why this isn't more apparent/important to more users is beyond me. I share your sentiments totally. Sometimes when I think of this when reading the 3DC forums I wonder what percentage of 3DC users have ever used another decent sculpting app like Mudbox or ZBrush(at least for high detail work)...

P.S. has anyone seen the CUDA to OpenCL conversion sw just released... might interest anyone wanting an OpenCL build of 3DC for their ATI card in Windows or on OSX(nix too)

I want to thank Andrew for his hard work adding PTEX to 3DC so early on, and doing a great job at it too! But I will be VERY relieved when Andrew can get back to work on feature requests and bug fixes that the actual users want/NEED.

[AbnRanger]

...P.S. has anyone seen the CUDA to OpenCL conversion sw just released... might interest anyone wanting an OpenCL build of 3DC for their ATI card in Windows or on OSX(nix too)

I want to thank Andrew for his hard work adding PTEX to 3DC so early on, and doing a great job at it too! But I will be VERY relieved when Andrew can get back to work on feature requests and bug fixes that the actual users want/NEED.

Nice find. What I would hope to see is Andrew stumble upon a clone of himself (figuratively), to whom he can outsource development on things like Ptex, while he continues to "hammer the rock" (Core elements of the application). You know what they say..."Everyone has a twin somewhere in the world."

[juanmanuel]

Nice find. What I would hope to see is Andrew stumble upon a clone of himself (figuratively), to whom he can outsource development on things like Ptex, while he continues to "hammer the rock" (Core elements of the application). You know what they say..."Everyone has a twin somewhere in the world."

This is more than wonderful! I am no programmer but this could mean all us ATI users some of the goodies that nVidia users have taken for granted. And not just in 3d-coat. Maybe even someone can make a CUDA-to-ATI universal wrapper? I hope it's not just wishful thinking...

As to Andrew and requests. I'ld ask Andrew to forget 3d-coat for week (maybe even two) so he can completey devote himself to his "real life". It would probably mean a refreshed and invigorated, and even more inspired Andrew to create more 3d-coat goodness.

Just my suggestion, of course. I'm sure Andrew will do what is best.

[haikalle]

@juanmanual, I totally Agree about taking a holiday. In the Christmas time Andrew was working so hard. In the end 3d-coat is just a program.

There is much more important things in this life than 3d-coat. Taking a holiday, it isn't a crime. It is something that everyone needs. Be with your

family and etc... Come to Finland...I have a red carpet waiting for you

[philnolan3d]

Andrew actually did take some time off for Christmas, I was talking to him about how hard he was working in the end of December and he said they don't celebrate Christmas until January 8th according to the Julian calender.

[ifxs]

Thank you Phil,

soooooo back on topic of 3.2 and beyond then.......

[AbnRanger]

Thank you Phil,

soooooo back on topic of 3.2 and beyond then.......

Yep...an overhauled Sculpt Room (move or mirror Surface Tools there + Multi-Res/SubD levels found in ZB & MB) as a next on the "To Do" list would be great. Allowing users to avoid Voxel merging issues, and to be able to do all their high-detail sculpting there.

Voxels are highly useful and are very promising in many respects, but they aren't the ultimate sculpting paradigm we all expected. A Hybrid approach would perhaps be the best way forward, me thinks.

[splodge]

As to Andrew and requests. I'ld ask Andrew to forget 3d-coat for week (maybe even two) so he can completey devote himself to his "real life". It would probably mean a refreshed and invigorated, and even more inspired Andrew to create more 3d-coat goodness.

Heck, the guy deserves a year off at least!

I've done a bit of programming myself and I know how intense it can be. Just correcting a single bug can take a whole day, so I'm constantly amazed at how quick Andrew works.

[ifxs]

Heck, the guy deserves a year off at least!

I've done a bit of programming myself and I know how intense it can be. Just correcting a single bug can take a whole day, so I'm constantly amazed at how quick Andrew works.

wow....

[ifxs]

Yep, we've got the message.

Perhaps Andrew needs to sticky it then you won't have to keep repeating yourself? Maybe you'd like to stick the message onto his forehead?

or perhaps its also good to emphasize certain much needed features in 3DC if it is true that Andrew added PTEX before other features because of all the 3DC-userbase requests/response to do so....

(multithreading in vox room please) ;-)

[spacepainter]

the software uservoice does just that

[ifxs]

Great image ;-).

If this was open-source software I didn't HAVE to pay for to use, I wouldn't be sharing my hopes/feature requests, I'd be programming and/or contributing to the apps development in some form to bring this about as I do with other toolsets I use that are opensource....

3DC is however closed-source, and has increased in multiples in price in a short amount of time(for good reason being a pay-app as it is). Thus I don't have the ability to edit/add to my tool, I must try to bring attention to a feature for an tool I am PAYING FOR by using means such as this forum, and emails directly to Andrew... Seems like requests/suggestions like we see here are what brought us PTEX months before we really needed it IMO. I choose to voice my support for aspects of 3DC that would make it a toolset I could used more often with less time wasting hours watching merge bars on 1 cpu core for the detail I absolutely need from a sculpting app... as have others.

[splodge]

If you insist on being a smartazz about it, you have done the same, yourself...repeatedly. Pot meet Mr. Kettle.

Sometimes, a request may well get overlooked in less traffic'ed thread. That's why I raised it again in this one...more likely to be seen by Andrew. It is an idea....no different from the several dozen you've made, chief.

Andrew has said that he's going to add multi-res support. And I doubt that he's missed your messages about slow merging. I think even the pope knows about your concerns over that by now.

[Lawless]

have to say, you know where the ignore list button is.

Hey AbnRanger,

People have mentioned an ignore button before ... but where is it? I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks,

Brandon

[AbnRanger]

Hey AbnRanger,

People have mentioned an ignore button before ... but where is it? I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks,

Brandon

I can't tell you...I have you on my ignore list, so I'm officially ignoring you....or something.

Seriously though, in the upper right hand corner of the webpage, click on your screen name and at the bottom of the drop down list, you will see "Manage Ignore List." That's where you want to go to add Splooge to the list.

[SonK]

I can't tell you...I have you on my ignore list, so I'm officially ignoring you....or something.

Seriously though, in the upper right hand corner of the webpage, click on your screen name and at the bottom of the drop down list, you will see "Manage Ignore List." That's where you want to go to add Splooge to the list.

Well that gave me a good laugh(and don't have anything against splooge). I haven't been here in a while,been too busy with using Sculptris Is there anything Andrew can do to improve the feel of the voxel brushes? i feel they are still too clunky and like you said maybe focusing on the surface tools might be better?

[ghib]

Guys can we please try and keep this place polite, if you have personal gripes then please take it private. I'd hate this place to turn into the Silo Forums.. I think Feed and Jam took a step back from the boards partly because of all the petty bickering going on.

I love this community; it's on the whole open and helpful.

peace and love

[Javis]

Guys can we please try and keep this place polite, if you have personal gripes then please take it private. I'd hate this place to turn into the Silo Forums.. I think Feed and Jam took a step back from the boards partly because of all the petty bickering going on.

I love this community; it's on the whole open and helpful.

peace and love

Agreed. Let's keep it nice. The NT and Silo forums are full of enough vitriol to last many life times. We don't need this forum ending as such, too.

Thanks!

[Jean-Luc]

Same feeling here, Andrew has provided us with a wonderful tool, and it's already way beyond my expectations when I bought it. It's a fun tool for us to use and it has to be fun for Andrew to develop. I have a very good friend who also is an exceptional programmer in the 3D world (I don't say that because he is my friend). He never ever works better than when he does things the way he wants, he is never faster, never gets better results. In the end, everyone wins, he enjoys his work, and produce programs that are way beyond what people expected at first.

Are they bugs in 3D Coat ? Yes. Do they get fixed very fast ? Most of the time a LOT faster than similar programs made by big companies and I have no doubt most of them will be fixed in the next beta release.

BTW, this post isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I have no grunge against anyone

[Andrew Shpagin]

Updated to 3.2.05 (but Linux build - it comes tomorrow)

Changes:

- Ptex import when sepearate textures are assigned to initial faces before subdivision (not to subdivided faces).

- Ptex files export/import in new Ptex representation (texture per non-subdivided face)

- Dynamic Ptex resolution is done in new approach - one texture per non-subdivided face.

- support of merging multiple objects/deleting part of objects in Ptex representation.

- I checked that ptx files exported from 3D-Coat are correctly rendered in external renderer. Of course I made only simplest tests.

- Splines/Lines in E panel will not dive into surface in paint room. In so way you can easily draw over curved surfaces.

- solved longstanding problem with licensing when license file gets corrupted randomly (and rarely) in the middle of the work.

[philnolan3d]

Unfortunately 3DC crashes every time I try to load a model for Ptex. I submitted a bug report. It only seems to crash when I reduce the carcass res to the lowest number.

[Andrew Shpagin]

Unfortunately 3DC crashes every time I try to load a model for Ptex. I submitted a bug report. It only seems to crash when I reduce the carcass res to the lowest number.

Thanks, I will check and fix. But in current representation it is better to use Ptex on subdivided mesh be close to limit subdivision surface.

[philnolan3d]

Oh maybe I misunderstood. I thought you could now use it without subdividing in this version.

Edit: I posted another Ptex related bug here:

http://www.3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5335

[haikalle]

Phil, did you say that it crash with the lowest carcass res. With my 3d-coat it seems to work.

Higher carcass res will crash 3d-coat.