[Trello Vote] Remove Tweak Room - Use surface tools to tweak the paint model

[AbnRanger]

As I see it Carlosan, and how painful it looked to make the v4 overhaul, there won't be a big change as that in v5. I'm not Andrew, but that's the second iteration already. I mean we could probably stick to the room concept with consolidation, reorganization, making the bridges solid and very userfriendly. Everything fits in the current room regardless of the tech evolution. The room are technicaly all encompassing, the techs can evolve but the concepts of retopo/sculpt/paint/uv are there in all 3d content pipeline (maybe uving is going soon, at work it's already gone for instance) but that's it.

What do you mean UV'ing is gone (where you work)?

[BeatKitano]

I mean we push voxels all day with scan data, even animation, with all that in place we don't need to use texture and use the voxels to store the paint channels (so no more uvs).

The time and money lost on uving and painting on flat sheets is now spent on hardware where we can modify data (geometry and materials) in realtime. Uvs will disappear in most pipelines, it's just a question of when not how (ptex is another answer in the polygon world).

[Malo]

@artman

 

2) Throw all UV tools out of retopo room... (who does UVS at the same time of doing retopo!!?...)

Imo it only hinder the flow of the retopo tools accessibility and is also very strange to new users..

 

I think, that is a bad idea. I would prefer to join the two rooms. I use 3d coat now 1.5 years and i have never ever used the UV Room.

I always did my UVs in Retopo Room becaus of the lack how the UV Room works. Without bake, you dont get your model in UV Room, but you cant bake without UVs.

 

[Javis]

@artman

I think, that is a bad idea. I would prefer to join the two rooms. I use 3d coat now 1.5 years and i have never ever used the UV Room.

I always did my UVs in Retopo Room becaus of the lack how the UV Room works. Without bake, you dont get your model in UV Room, but you cant bake without UVs.

 

 

Neither should happen, in the mean time. I use both rooms very regularly.

 

UV room is for imported meshes that you're painting (not retopologizing), and the UV tools in the retopo room are strictly for retopology meshes.

 

 

 

That's the basic quandary here. Streamlining workflow. Maybe if there was a more simple way to say, hey, I want to UV this mesh, be it retopo mesh or painting mesh. Maybe the retopo groups and sub-objects tab should be merged into a single mesh tab? I think that would solve a lot of the workflow issues we're all having.

[ajz3d]

@artman

I think, that is a bad idea. I would prefer to join the two rooms. I use 3d coat now 1.5 years and i have never ever used the UV Room.

I always did my UVs in Retopo Room becaus of the lack how the UV Room works. Without bake, you dont get your model in UV Room, but you cant bake without UVs.

I lay out UVs in both rooms. Depends on the job really.

I'd be devastated to see those two rooms merged into one.

 

I'm with Beat when it comes to an outliner. IMHO, all we need is a more transparent transition between the rooms. Fusing all rooms into a single space and polishing the UI after this operation would take ages and probably introduce a lot of confusion. Hell! I still catch myself looking for Merge commands inside the retopo menu, after Andrew moved them to Bake menu!

 

And about the Tweak Room, I never found its tools to be user friendly, especially when compared to surface tools from the sculpt room. I'd like to see either, the:

 

A) tweak room removed, and an added support to non-destructively sculpt meshes inside the sculpt room. This would however require from the sculpt room to support quad meshes and a support of UVs (vertex order intact!) - so a LOT of work from Andrew's side. I don't think it's worth the effort.

 

or, most preferably:

 

tweak room kept, but its toolkit completely replaced by surface tools from the sculpt room. Much easier to implement, I believe. This would make creating of BlendShapes (a.k.a. MorphTargets) a breeze, as the current tweak room's toolkit is very unintuitive, clunky, and difficult to use. At least that's my experience with it.

Edited September 10, 2014 by ajz3d

[fuzzzzzz]

hello guy, i want to share my opinion and with that, some screens to illustrate my workflow:

a suggestion from me, about the various room, personaly i don't use Tweak and UV room and now paiting romm is almost useless as my workflow on the texturing has changed with substance painter.

but i think the Tweak Room would be very kind of useful if we could load a model, tweak it  and then send it into retopo or voxel room as surface/voxel mesh.
i will take a very simple object made quickly into maya :

 

use this very low poly model would result into an undesired result :

use subdivide :



using resample with linear give a dirty result :



but if i import the mesh into retopo room and than split ring :



if i subdivide now, 3dcoat respects the hard edges.
and looks correct to work with




if i must to create my middle density mesh before to sculpt within 3dcoat, (and then I don't need the paint room anymore), it just reduce a lot the usage of 3dcoat to use on production pipeline. I mean that retopo and uvs tools are perfect, excepted, that i would love if 3D Coat handle uvs shifting  and especially if you need to bake the normal map for several uvmaps.
But if I use maya to make this intermediate model to sculpt with, I could finally use maya to make the full hires model, no ?
Also i don't feel capable to create from scratch a full very high model done directly in voxel room, some are capable to make complexe stuff within 3DC, i am not one of them, and  so maya is an important tool in my workflow to make the lowpoly. sometime i could just need a very basic shape to start modeling, it will not refelect the final low polygonal model, as i would make it into retopo room when the sculpt is done.

Tweak could become Modeling / Uv Room (in replacement of Retopo,UV and Tweak rooms)

Each layers could  have a specific naming convention, so 3dcoat can recognize the purpose of the compoenent. i see it like that : 

you can add several types of components, puch the button Add "RetopoGroup", will add a new group for the retopo stuff, but we coudl alos add some more utilities there , like  Add Cage for baking purpose , or again, Add for proxy mesh that driven the pose tool, so we could also create and store some morph target/blendshapes, extracted from pose library.
This room is capable to do all what the retopo room is already capable to, and also create the UVs. but we can send the appropriate layer into the ideal other rooms without to export the edits in obj or fbx and then reimport them into the appropriated room.

This is my humble opinion, hope it can contribute to make this app better.

[PolyHertz]

i don't use Tweak and UV room and now paiting romm is almost useless as my workflow on the texturing has changed with substance painter.

 

Just to be clear, is this because 3DC doesn't support PBR texturing?

[fuzzzzzz]

Just to be clear, is this because 3DC doesn't support PBR texturing?

yes that it

[Malo]

@Javis and ajz3d

I see what you mean.

You only need the UV Room if you want to import some external data or if you want to modify your UV Layout after baking. Both operation are in most cases needed.

 

Then would be only this the best option from artman

 

3)ALL Uv tools should be in UV room. All baking should be made in UV rooms.

Uv room could load mesh from retopo room in one click.

UV room could load mesh from paint room with one click  and update with one click.

This is also where you would load external meshes to be uved (first reflex for new users)

 

Without a simple click to get your Retopo model into the UV Room, it would be a bad idea to put all UV tools into the UV Room.

 

[artman]

@Javis and ajz3d

I see what you mean.

You only need the UV Room if you want to import some external data or if you want to modify your UV Layout after baking. Both operation are in most cases needed.

 

Then would be only this the best option from artman

 

Without a simple click to get your Retopo model into the UV Room, it would be a bad idea to put all UV tools into the UV Room.

Im not gonna fight for this,its just my opinion. If people want to do this in 2 rooms I wont argue with this..I was just enumerating the changes I would like to see... Its just that I never made uvs at the same time of doing retopo work (IF anybody do so I would like to know why..)...Also when I play with my uv shells or mark seams in retopo room sometimes I feel suffocated by the countless retopo tools that surrounds me....I just felt uvs tools could use some air as they will probably even get more additions and so will retopo tools..

[AbnRanger]

Im not gonna fight for this,its just my opinion. If people want to do this in 2 rooms I wont argue with this..I was just enumerating the changes I would like to see... Its just that I never made uvs at the same time of doing retopo work (IF anybody do so I would like to know why..)...Also when I play with my uv shells or mark seams in retopo room sometimes I feel suffocated by the countless retopo tools that surrounds me....I just felt uvs tools could use some air as they will probably even get more additions and so will retopo tools..

You're right on that. It should be one room for UV layout. There just has to be some mechanism to choose the mesh you want to edit.

[AbnRanger]

This is where I think an Outliner would play a crucial role. Whatever items you have selected in the Outliner, that is the active mesh/object you want to work on....regardless of which workspace/room you choose. So, if you are working on a Retopo mesh in the Retopo Workspace, having it selected/visible in the Outliner, when you switch to the UV room, 3D Coat knows it's the Retopo Mesh you want to edit UV's.

 

Likewise, if you have a low poly mesh, you are painting on in the Paint Room, and decide that you'd like to fix an issue with the mesh (sometimes 3D Coat will leave holes in your mesh when you subdivide your retopo model), selecting it in the Outliner > fix it in the Retopo/Topo Room...you could then go straight back to the Paint Room without any fussy workarounds.

[Carlosan]

What about this bug report ? is correct ?

 

if fixed... will help to switch from retopo room to UV room ?

 

UV load and save bug in Retopo mode - '.mesh' and '.uv files' incompatibility

[AbnRanger]

Another example of an Outliner being the mechanism that tells 3D Coat exactly what you want to work on, is...using the Voxel or Surface mode tools on a model you originally imported into the Paint room. If you started texture painting a model in the Paint Room and decided at some point you wanted to use the Voxel/Surface mode tools to do some detail work, you could select the mesh(s) in the Outliner > go to the Sculpt room > Merge tool > Selected from Paint Room...choosing whether to voxelize or as a Surface mode object. Do your sculpting, then from a BAKE menu in the Sculpt room...bake a displacement/normal map to a new Paint layer