Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 1, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) Thanks for your hard work in the new update, I have one major problem described below.. It does not effect the new default shader. Sculpt Room: The new PBR shaders have this grid pattern which is very distracting for sculpting and not smooth like the old shaders. It appears to be the voxel or surface mode grid type patterns. This also effects the non PBR shaders as well. The more you res+ the smaller the grid but they are still there. Is this the intended behavior? This model is 1,8 million. I tested a 6 million voxel model and as stated the grid pattern is still there. The problem also is in the new contrast mode, either one the grid pattern is still there. Other users please confirm this problem to know if it is happening with other systems and graphic cards.. Nvidia 770... Drivers 361.43 Beta version 4.5.29---- 64 bit non cuda, DX--- Windows 7 Same shader problem in the GL version too. EDIT: A 16 million surface mode or voxel mode object still has a clearly seen grid pattern. EDIT2: I am getting black texture areas in the 3DC render room... These areas are correctly rendered in 4.5.28 but now in 4.5.29 these same areas are black... The original color is a lighter rust tone... That will be the subject of another post with details but not till tomorrow. Edited March 1, 2016 by digman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Sorn Posted March 1, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 1, 2016 Same here with 4.5.29 DX and GL, with and without CUDA enabled on a Laptop with a GeForce GT 630M running Windows 10 I'll further test with the workstation if needed. No build for Linux yet, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 1, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) I will post this picture of the render room, this goes with my second edit from my first post. The bake model is from the paint room with a smart material and normal map. left side of the attached image... 4.5.28 This is rendered correctly... GGX shader (Unreal) Roughness---Metalness workflow. right side-------------------------- 4.5.29. This is rendered incorrectly with some texture areas almost being black. GGX shader Burley 12 (Unreal) Roughness---Metalness workflow. Look at roughness too there is a large difference between 4.5.28 and 4.5.29 Metalness is set at 100 percent in the smart material shader with some roughness, top material layer is pure dielectric with some roughness. No matter the light angle from the hdr image the black areas are still there... That is one of the default Hdr Env maps.. Please do your own test and report back here to make sure it is not my system, details in my first post... Edited March 1, 2016 by digman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 PBR shaders grid pattern Edit shader settings test cavity setting = 0.5 solve the issue cavity off = solve the issue I think the problem is in the new cavity shader effect ----------- render room - default settings- exposition is very High shadows could be better visible artifacts -------------------- New Sculpt shader system is a m a z i n g, much better visual feel/feedback Ty ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 2, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) PBR shaders grid pattern Edit shader settings cavity setting = 0.5 solve the issue cavity off = solve the issue I think the problem is in the new cavity shader effect ----------- render room - default settings- exposition is very High shadows could be better visible artifacts RR.jpg -------------------- New Sculpt shader system is a m a z i n g, much better visual feel/feedback Ty ! Nope, after disabling cavity. The default shader is fine and needs no adjustments. It is the others... We should not have have a grid pattern... New users will go what the H@###ll and experience users should not have to adjust the cavity settings in the shader to remove a grid pattern plus I was still getting some grid effects after disabling cavity. Edited March 2, 2016 by digman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Sorn Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Confirmed the issue in another machine using 4.5.29 (GL64) CUDA and non-CUDA both using a Quadro K620. Changing the shader's parameters as carlosan said doesn't solve the issue, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 We should not have have a grid pattern agree, just try to point in one direction, its not a directive to work without problems there is a issue to be solved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member gbball Posted March 2, 2016 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Man, this new shader system is pretty amazing...I'm just messing around and I made a pretty convincing seal skin texture. I think it still needs some tweaks as Digman alluded to. Perhaps a sensitivity slider or an option to blur the effect on the depth and bump colours, as right now it's picking up a lot of the imperfections on my mesh and drawing too much attention. Actually, I'm not sure it's the same thing that's happening to Digman. But I must say, I'm very excited. Any chance of getting Yebis post processing integration? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyHertz Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Any chance of getting Yebis post processing integration? Emissive glow would be awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member gbball Posted March 2, 2016 Advanced Member Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 I have to say this build is excellent so far. The performance seems to be a lot better too. Please keep up the refactoring, it's definitely paying dividends. Also, I thought I'd mention, I'm teaching 3D Coat to my students at a couple of the colleges I teach at and they're really liking it. I'm going to try to integrate it even more. I started using zbrush in order to teach it to them and while it's a very powerful program, I find the sculpting feel much better in 3D Coat (aside from their smoothing which is pretty responsive and the autoretopo which performs quite well). I did notice that the models the I took from 3d coat looked better in zbrush, but I think that is no longer the case with this update. I'm really blown away by the work you guys have done! I can't wait for Raul's updates too. Exciting times! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Primary Light Intensity Any chance to adjust Hotspot & Falloff This HighPoint burn my eyes ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 This is really an efficient approach,smart materials are great but those shaders are really fast....I mean you cannot get any faster than this. A lot of texturing artists are gonna love this . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 2, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) The new shader is system is good but appears to be optimized for the sculpt room PBR shaders but not the paint room smart materials. I am not complaining about the new update as this still is in the beta stage but there does seem some problems with the rendering. The metal in the smart material no longer matches what I see in the paint room when rendering a smart material. This is unworkable... Attached pictures... 4.5.28 on the left side of the image---- Right side is 4.5.29... The metal is darker and also loses some of it's reflective qualities. The whole material just seems off.. Of course I do not know where the problem lies, my smart material is setup correctly. It could just be in the renderer itself... or the new shaders under the view window in the Paint room. Again no matter what shader I choose under the view menu, the darker areas on the texture are still there. I tested several smart materials, this includes the default ones and they are all effected. I had shown another example in my other post... Also here is another shot of the grid pattern in the new PBR shaders... Shaders with more roughness shows them less but still there... Edited March 2, 2016 by digman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 It looks like that the higher the poly count is, the more prominent the grid pattern. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 2, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) It looks like that the higher the poly count is, the more prominent the grid pattern. Thanks for confirming this issue as Allabulle had done too. One more metal smart material rendered, compare the two... 4.5.28 Left side---4.5.29 Right side. This material is a pure metal with roughness. To mention again, I am using the Roughness---Metalness workflow. Edited March 2, 2016 by digman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) I can't apply shaders to objects that I import via Import tool. --- 3D-Coat creates duplicates of objects that are imported to sculpt room with Import tool. --- Hm, both issues above seem to be totally random. I need to investigate further. Edited March 2, 2016 by ajz3d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) I have some problems with how new shaders are rendered on very thin objects (in the render room). The rendered objects mostly come out very dark unless they're pretty thick, like the default head for example. Take a look: I need to tweak light intensity to maximum in order to see anything on the rendered image. Like with this steel shader below - I tweaked intensity to 294. Compare it with the previous image, where intensity was equal to 100. Of course maximizing intensity makes other shaders render incorrectly as they come out overexposed. Edited March 2, 2016 by ajz3d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 This is a rather interesting fact. Converting the imported surface to voxels enables the render room to render the object correctly with all shaders. Converting it back to surface maintains this state. So the problem occurs for objects that pass through Import tool (in surface mode). This includes importing from retopo room and from models palette. Example: The upper part was converted to voxels and back to surface. Both parts use the same shader (steel). But I think that this issue is also scene dependant or random. Sometimes I can import models without it happening, sometimes not. It's really weird. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 2, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) The grid pattern is gone if you turn off both flat shading and cavity (Carlosan had mentioned about cavity) but you lose all the nice shader effects which defeats the purpose of the new PBR shaders in the sculpt room. @ajz3d... Yeah, I think there is a general problem with the new PBR shader system, from rendering smart materials with metal being very dark and Sculpt room shaders being rendered very dark in the render room also. I put up enough information for the development team so I will now wait on any feedback they give. I am going back to beta 4.5.28 as I can work with PBR materials inside of 3DC and to other render engines correctly atm... My own created (paint room) smart materials, user created free ones and my purchased ones all work correctly in 4.5.28. 4.5.29 is a beta so I will wait for a update to it... Edited March 2, 2016 by digman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) @ajz3d... Yeah, I think there is a general problem with the new PBR shader system, from rendering smart materials with metal being very dark and Sculpt room shaders being rendered very dark in the render room also.I put up enough information for the development team so I will now wait on any feedback they give. I am going back to beta 4.5.28 as I can work with PBR materials inside of 3DC and to other render engines correctly atm... 4.5.29 is a beta so I will wait for a update to it... Yeah, nevertheless I'm in love with the new sculpt room's PBR shaders, and especially the fact that you can apply a normal map texture to them(!). It's a very good start I think. I think I'll stick to .29 for now unless I encounter some super serious bugs. @Andrew I can send you the model from the screenshots for testing, if it would help you to reproduce the issue with super-dark renders in the render room. PS. Oh, I almost forgot. Andrew, now that you're working on shaders, could you design a new optional wireframe mode for the sculpt room, that would cull all wireframes that are not immediately in front of the camera? So all wires that are either on backfaces or hidden by surfaces that are closer to the camera would be hidden? Generally speaking - a wireframe on shaded mode? Edited March 2, 2016 by ajz3d 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 2, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) Yes sticking to a beta version is an artist call... I would stick to beta 4.5.29 if the paint room smart materials with metal rendered correctly... Edited March 2, 2016 by digman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 2, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Yes sticking to a beta version is an artist call... I like the thrill of risk, and the adrenaline pumping straight into my heart! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 2, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) I like the thrill of risk, and the adrenaline pumping straight into my heart! LOL, we all love the rush of a new beta... yeah baby! Ok, Here is another problem and these are always posted in the light of just bringing them to the attention of the development team. beta 4.5.29 Open GL 64 bit non cuda Simple smart material I created. metal with a dielectric material on top in places. The model with the normal map was baked from the retopo room but the smart material was created in the Paint room. Noticed in 4.5.29 when using the GL verison of the beta, you get squares in the Render room... This is using a smart material not a sculpt room PBR shader. The squares are not present in the 4.5.28 GL version. Up to 4.5.28, I have not experienced any problems with smart materials and no problems in the render room. These started with 4.5.29 The only thing I have not done, is to do a clean install... which I might later just do to be sure there is not some update conflict. The development team did not adivsed to do so. You might have noticed, I use development team now as Andrew has hired a few developers to help him. I believe I am correct there. Edited March 2, 2016 by digman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted March 3, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) I have not test the new Beta. But in all your images, it looks like the metal color is gone. Maybe Andrew use the AlbedoColormap from Glossy/Spec to render but still uses the Metal/Rough values, and that wont works. Because MetalColor is stored in Specularmap. Just my 2 Cents Edited March 3, 2016 by Malo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted March 3, 2016 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) I have not test the new Beta. But in all your images, it looks like the metal color is gone. Maybe Andrew use the AlbedoColormap from Glossy/Spec to render but still uses the Metal/Rough values, and that wont works. Because MetalColor is stored in Specularmap. Just my 2 Cents I knew something was wrong with the rendering of smart materials but at the time but did not speculate, though my thoughts were in your direction. From the issue03 / Quixel article. "Instead of using both a diffuse albedo map and a specular albedo map, Metalness introduces a combined "Albedo" map. This holds diffuse albedo for nonmetals and specular albedo for metals. Since metals have no diffuse albedo color anyways (= black diffuse), there is practically no loss of information this way. The metalness map thus tells the shader the following: Color = white: Metal. Make a constant black color for the diffuse, and load the specular color from the albedo map. Color = black: Nonmetal. Load the diffuse color from the albedo map, and make a constant 4% specular reflection." Hopefully will hear back from the development team here at the beta forum soon to know the cause for sure or a fix... Edited March 3, 2016 by digman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Frimasson Posted March 3, 2016 Member Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) What happend to the shading ?I did a comparison between marmoset, 3dc 4.28 and 3dc 4.29 with a model imported in the paint roomMarmoset and 3dc 4.28 looks close to each otherThe shading in 3dc 4.29 is flatter on all my models, and to get an impression of volume, i have to increase a lot the contrast of the HDRUntil this issue will be fixed, i will stick to 4.28 Edited March 3, 2016 by Frimasson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Michaelgdrs Posted March 4, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Great work on 5.30 . Thank you very much Andrew. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 4, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Great work on 5.30 . Thank you very much Andrew. There's version 4.5.30 already available? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Michaelgdrs Posted March 4, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 O yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted March 4, 2016 Contributor Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 (edited) You are very secretive, Michael. Edited March 4, 2016 by ajz3d 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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