CGTalk - Drama Queens?

[LorenzoS]

Yeah. Pretty brutal over there for Christians. I got banned for my signature.

[Calabi]

So, did I make a mistake by starting that thread? Do you think, even though the title was slightly negative, that anything positive came from asking the question?

Myself, I think that kind of feedback is worth thousands of dollars, maybe more.

Reading the comments with our "intelligent" filter on, I think we can glean miles of valuable information that could greatly influence the success of our product and light the way for how to proceed with development.

But, I could be wrong.

Greg Smith

It may be usefull but just bare in mind that plenty of studies have been done that indicate that people in general dont say what they mean, they try to apease the questioner or antagonise as that case appears to be, to get across there rightous view. I dont see much of what they are suggesting would really change there minds.

Perhaps what they dont say is more important information. They dont appear to know much about the software.

[digman]

Making a joke here..

I'm against some "people's view of their view" that Andrew should not post any religious material on his site. I find their views offensive and how dare they post them on a software forum. Forums are only to be used for software support, showing your art,advice and tutorials. What get's into these people thinking they can tell others how live, what to write and what software to use on a public forum. They are world view nuts... I therefore will never buy any software they use, take advice or use any tutorial that they produce.

Now, that was a joke, but how can others who freely want to express their views tell others they can not express their views even when it conflicts with their own. That is a form of logical thinking suicide.

And as they said in South Texas, It works both ways sister...

[kirkl]

Reading all the complains about UI and other stuff I think about all the same things in Photoshop vs Gimp. Remember all the stir about new great content aware fill while the same feature came to Gimp years before and had been well used all the time.

It's not a UI, logo color or religion what I care of when I search for a new software. I search for new tools that would solve some of my work tasks or offer a new approaches and 3d-coat definitely do it. It probably will not become my main working horse but it already do help me to make a few things quicker. So till a moment when big named studios discover it , it will stay a secret weapon of ours

[philnolan3d]

it will stay a secret weapon of ours

The problem with it being secret is when I want to get a job at a studio that doesn't use it or has never even heard of it, which happened recently.

[kirkl]

I prefer a contract job, sitting in pajamas at my home pc. Any secret weapon is very welcome that way. The only matter is that the result would be a little bit better and unique than what they able to find otherwise. And the work tasks itself are often more challenging and creative than all that routine in-house pipeline.

Sometimes with industry standard tools you just can't reach anything whatever a million other people in the world already do.

[AbnRanger]

I prefer a contract job, sitting in pajamas at my home pc. Any secret weapon is very welcome that way. The only matter is that the result would be a little bit better and unique than what they able to find otherwise. And the work tasks itself are often more challenging and creative than all that routine in-house pipeline.

Sometimes with industry standard tools you just can't reach anything whatever a million other people in the world already do.

I tend to agree with Phil. The more studios that use it, the more job openings for those that are proficient with it.

[Grandmaster B]

I dont think what some artists are complaining about is the UI itself, more that the confusion about the rooms and how the UI (the menues for example) changes in every room.

When i think back to when i started with 3D-Coat, i remember that i was very confused about what was going on behind the scenes. Especially the "rooms" and how they work together is very confusing for beginners, also it's such an essential thing that you are afraid to ask. It takes a while before you realize that there are different models in particular rooms, logically this is the first thing you should be told but isnt.

I think the order of the rooms in the toolbar is also misleading. Should be: Voxels, Retopo, UV, Sculpt, Paint, Render.

[JimB]

I wondered why such an important software as 3D Coat has'nt got a forum of its own over at CGTalk,it is a great pity.

[geo_n]

I wondered why such an important software as 3D Coat has'nt got a forum of its own over at CGTalk,it is a great pity.

Cgtalk was a great place for cg work till they became greedy.

Now their priority is sponsors with big cash. Just look at how well AD and maxon software is treated compared to smaller software like lightwave,etc.

[JimB]

I wonder if Fragmotion has any problems (see top right).

http://www.fragmosoft.com/

[meshman]

To tell you guys where I'm at. I was about to buy 3d-Coat about 2 months ago but their site was down for maintenance, so I had to postpone my purchase for some time. In that duration I read elsewhere about their "Our Voice" section, and when the site was back up I examined it more closely.

That section - and that section alone - was responsible for my decision to never buy the software. I really don't care if the guy is a devout Christian or whatever, its not something you put on a professional website like this.

My "boycott" was unfortunate but necessary.

Cheers.

[polyxo]

I actually can not imagine that the mild and friendly request from "our Voice" really keeps very many people from buying 3D-Coat.

However - I think it still contains one statement which I guess is the source of most irritations and might be slightly

modified without taking away from what you guys want to express:

The Sentence "We all have responsibility before God and before mankind for everything we're doing." implies without any

doubt that God exists and also that there's some kind of evaluation of "Life-Achievement" after death.

This however is a a deeply christian statement which not only people who don't have a religious belief but also those who

chose another religion might stumble upon...

What imo is missing in that sentence is that you are not talking about axiomatic facts but (only) about written records everyone

at Pilgway is deeply and sincerely convinced of. You are just talking about the respectable choice you took for your life, what

doesn't get clear that it is choice among other alternatives.

In this sentence the prefix "we are deeply convinced that we all are responsible... would already change a lot.

And it probably wouldn't hurt if a native English speaker honed the language here and there. In this text you are maybe implying things

you don't want to say and English readers sometimes seem to forget that most people talk in other languages all day long...

But again - I personally don't believe that this little text has a great impact on sales.

I think there were a lot of interesting points raised in that CG-Talk-Thread.

What I found most convincing of all was actually this:

Zbrush was there first and had something absolutely new and highly relevant to offer to the Film and Game-Industry.

It wasn't possible to ignore that product for about the first half of this Decade.

But some users while convinced of Zbrush's power kept having a a hard time with its unconventional, highly Pen-Input optimized

GUI. This fraction finally could be made happy with the far more conventional product Mudbox.

Leigh said something like there's Zbrush and Mudbox and I can do with this Software whatever I through at them. Why on earth should

I look at another program?" That is probably an absolutely correct statement. Her employers will probably not allow her to waste

valuable time with something like manual Edge by Edge Retopo inside Zbrush.

I think it is a given fact that both Zbrush and Mudbox are very solid tools for typical Workflows in Game and Film Industry.

While the same is increasingly true for 3DCoat it simply came quite a bit later...

In my opinion it therefor doesn't make a lot of sense to only point out what 3DCoat can do equally well or better for Film and Games than

the two mentioned products. But it made sense to emphasize its usefulness in areas of work which also can profit from Sculpting

where Zbrush and Mudbox are really limited.

To me this is clearly and from the beginning of the Voxel-Implementation its great value as an complimentary tool in Product-Design.

One can not load overlapping/non watertight Junk-Scandata and repair them with just a few clicks, neither with Zbrush nor with

Mudbox! 3DC does a cool job here - and offers tools which can't be found in Programs which cost many thousand dollars!

Even Non Mesh-Experts can run a quick auto-retopo and create Mesh-Geometry ready for further SubD-Editing or Nurbs-Conversion (via Tsplines).

Not possible neither in Zbrush nor in Mudbox.

One further can sculpt meshes directly from any Nurbs-Modeler which do not at all match the Conventions of SubD-Modeling-Programs.

Zbrush and Mudbox (as they leave the Input meshes) both perform much worse under these conditions!

And one can also directly draw on top of such Meshes which do not allow for any proper subdivision and send back a complete set of textures

to the Construction-Program which can even be applied to the original Nurbs-Object.

Again not possible with the other mentioned programs.

Just to mention a few possible uses...

[Grandmaster B]

Hi meshman, my respect for telling.

I saw the "banner" on fragmotion.com too, a few month ago. I thought - thats a stupid banner. After curiously examining i found that this is made part of the webside. Christians may find this entertaining everybody else will be annoyed, offended or scared away. For example:

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Damn, i didn't know THAT! Oblivion is it for me then...

[AbnRanger]

To tell you guys where I'm at. I was about to buy 3d-Coat about 2 months ago but their site was down for maintenance, so I had to postpone my purchase for some time. In that duration I read elsewhere about their "Our Voice" section, and when the site was back up I examined it more closely.

That section - and that section alone - was responsible for my decision to never buy the software. I really don't care if the guy is a devout Christian or whatever, its not something you put on a professional website like this.

My "boycott" was unfortunate but necessary.

Cheers.

That's fine. It was actually knowing that the developer was a devout Christian and that hyper sensitive haters like yourself were giving him grief...that made my purchase more worthwhile. Andrew is not only a genius, but he's also one of the hardest working people I've ever seen. Comments like yours won't discourage him, but instead compel him to work even harder...that's why we keep getting the goodies every week or so ...and you guys get...well you get to wait a few more years for your next fix.

This application grows and improves faster in 3-6 months than the competing applications do in 2-3yrs. It has better painting, UV layout and retopology tools than the competition already. Sculpting is the last remaining hurdle for Andrew, and in my opinion (with recent advancements) he has Voxels right on the threshold. It's not a matter of "if"...it's "when."

[Bach Nick]

3DC is not popular enough is for the same reason Softimage XSI is not popular enough, although they both surpass their competitors

it all comes down to:

1-EXPOSURE

and i don't mean advertisement alone cause most of users use adblock plus so they don't see the ads,

but i mean, Competitions with 3dc prises, Sponsoring, cool packaging, interview with famous users who use 3dcoat, studios who use 3dc, movies/shorts....

2-IDENTITY

Naming: 3DCoat is not attractive enough and misleading, either you change it with an overhaul so for it to look as the next generation of 3dcoat, or drop the oat keep it 3DC, it is easy simple and you can give the "C" many concepts such as Color, Carve, Create, Clay, and so on.

Logo: OMG pls someone remove that green slime/mucus of this Grey shaded ball, with a regular font type extruded with harsh AO, (sorry i had to be severe in this, to show my point, i do have the full respect for the designer of the logo however it is a render of a 3d scene, not suitable a logo)

Website: while it was better than the first, it is still weak, mixed Fonts serif and non serif.... not attractive overall with blurry text bkg in top, no arrangement...and people Grey is a dead color and not necessarily professional, look all i can see is gray in the first page, Sorry again but this is my opinion and pls don't take it personal.

installer: this is easy but 3dc should have a cool looking installer with artwork showing while installing in a classy way, this is added anticipation for the software...

3-THIRD PARTY

why not give free demos or licenses for training companies such as Digital tutors, I3d, Gnomon, and offer support for them to do plenty of video tutorials, with all respect to the current tutorial makers but the more spread the better, especially the famous ones.

Why not lure the developers for plugin development? let's start with a renderer.

there are plenty of 3rd party renderer, that if you offered collaboration on creating a plugin they won't mind an extra income from users buying their renderer for use with 3dC

imagine on maxwell front page an artwork done in 3dc and rendered in maxwell, although it will stay for a day or two, but that is extra Exposure, and our child in no longer a loner, he is playing with his friends.

Pls stop adding workflows to 3dc, rather add 3dc to workflows

and here is an explanation, one of the thing that will spread its use is a plugin for Mental Ray standins for 3dsmax, maya, softimage...what i mean, loading a proxy of the sculpted model in Softimage, and when rendering, the proxy is replaced by the High res, although we can't directly manipulate the proxy in softimage for say, but the link is live with 3dc , so if we sculpt in 3dc the proxy render updates in softimage in realtime.... and later on let's work on making it modifiable in softimage for example...

TRUE professionals don't care about the religious thing, they care about getting their work done in the best way possible, and on time

and if 3DC can help them, they won't think twice. As for the picky non pro users, use the WOW effects for them and they will buy it it even if it was notepad like

and i think i am sure 100% that Andrew knows that by adding the religious text he will get some negative comments, but no one from you should care, what's next? change the pilgway logo because it looks like a cross!?

these were my ideas, i am sorry if i was harsh but i want the best for the software, and when i finish the current project at hand in two weeks, i will be posting some designs that i hope will help.

Cheers

Bach

[polyxo]

3DC is not popular enough is for the same reason Softimage XSI is not popular enough, although they both surpass their competitors

Bach, while I can understand most of your points - what are the parallels to XSI as it was not yet under the hood of Autodesk?

They had a fabulously attractive Website, wonderful flowery branding, used some of the best Claims I've ever heard in Advertising* and

had tons of brilliant Videos narrated by that peculiar guy with the friendly voice who made even the most complex stuff appear easy as pie?

It seems all that didn't help...

* “Everything you need” ($1,995)

* “Everything you want” ($3,995)

* “Everything there is” ($8,995)

Source: http://www.otakunozoku.com/softimage-xsi-4/

[LorenzoS]

To tell you guys where I'm at. I was about to buy 3d-Coat about 2 months ago but their site was down for maintenance, so I had to postpone my purchase for some time. In that duration I read elsewhere about their "Our Voice" section, and when the site was back up I examined it more closely.

That section - and that section alone - was responsible for my decision to never buy the software. I really don't care if the guy is a devout Christian or whatever, its not something you put on a professional website like this.

My "boycott" was unfortunate but necessary.

Cheers.

This post displays far more intolerance that I've ever read. Hate a guy for what he believes? Boycott his product for what he believes?

Sowing these kinds of seeds will only come back to you. Starting a business anytime soon?

In a world where good moral values are being forsaken, it's good to see someone throw a stone in the water every now and then.

[polyxo]

This post displays far more intolerance that I've ever read. Hate a guy for what he believes?ater every now and then.

Just for the record: The word Hate was introduced by the Christians answering.

I could not read the slightest aggression out of meshmans words. To me he just seemed like a person who took a destinct decision.

Nothing more.

[ekunzendorf]

Hello all!

I put my asbestos undies on, and started a post on CG Society pointing to the Jedidiah video tutorials I did. We'll see if it makes any impression.

I was appalled that a simple statement of faith and request that the software not be used to server prurient purposes would draw such attack. The unreasoned, knee-jerk reaction is sad. Not what I expect from thinking individuals. And the moderator's behavior in closing the thread is worse. It really is nothing more than persecution when you get right down to it. Ah well...

Excelsior!

Eric Kunzendorf

Jacksonville University

[LorenzoS]

Just for the record: The word Hate was introduced by the Christians answering.

I could not read the slightest aggression out of meshmans words. To me he just seemed like a person who took a destinct decision.

Nothing more.

Perhaps you didn't read his post, in depth. Somehow some people think you can't be a professional and a devout Christian.

It's funny how people can hate Religion. Have they forgotten that the ten commandments is the only thing that's keep mankind from completely destroying themselves.

[Bach Nick]

Bach, while I can understand most of your points - what are the parallels to XSI as it was not yet under the hood of Autodesk?

They had a fabulously attractive Website, wonderful flowery branding, used some of the best Claims I've ever heard in Advertising* and

had tons of brilliant Videos narrated by that peculiar guy with the friendly voice who made even the most complex stuff appear easy as pie?

It seems all that didn't help...

* Everything you need ($1,995)

* Everything you want ($3,995)

* Everything there is ($8,995)

Source: http://www.otakunozoku.com/softimage-xsi-4/

well here the difference is the price, when they went 3democtacy things got better, plus exposure and third party is relevant for this day still for SI, just check the Area and tell me where is SI comparing to other ADSK ex-competitors?!

i just really hope that 3DC instead of trying to compete with mudbox and ZB, try to offer direct solution to DCC app such as maya SI Max Lightwave and in previous post i put some ideas hope the 3DC team would take it into consideration.

[polyxo]

Perhaps you didn't read his post, in depth. Somehow some people think you can't be a professional and a devout Christian.

It's funny how people can hate Religion. Have they forgotten that the ten commandments is the only thing that's keep mankind from completely destroying themselves.

I dont know where you could read any of that.

What I understood is that this person preferred purchasing from people who keep their Business and their religious interests

separate. That to me is an absolutely understandable point of view. When going to Church one makes the choice to be busy with

God - everybody probably was irritated when the Priest started preaching Voxels, Brushes and the great Retopology.

I well understand why this equation also works the other way round. Please don't talk of Hate. That's a strong word.

One shouldn't use it frivolously.

[Andrew Shpagin]

To tell you guys where I'm at. I was about to buy 3d-Coat about 2 months ago but their site was down for maintenance, so I had to postpone my purchase for some time. In that duration I read elsewhere about their "Our Voice" section, and when the site was back up I examined it more closely.

That section - and that section alone - was responsible for my decision to never buy the software. I really don't care if the guy is a devout Christian or whatever, its not something you put on a professional website like this.

My "boycott" was unfortunate but necessary.

Cheers.

That makes me sad. Peoples are tolerant to anything but Christian views.

But probably my only answer may be ever harder work, making more groundbreaking technologies and of course making 3DC stable as rock.

[moska]

may be theres no need to discuss about this (again?)

why asking CGTalk about ways to improve?

we need to grow,but we are growing every day anyhow.

better marketing?better design?perfection?first place?

takes time and hard work!

thats whats going on,right?

keep going Andrew,please!

as an artist,can we expect these same sucess?

or its a matter of enjoying and evolving thanks to what life brings or takes to and from us?

*the road its the reward*someone told.

are we artists?i can supose some of us work diferent jobs for a living.

many wont find any job at all.but thanks god we are creating,drawing and sculpting!

lets hope we can also live.

and then there are the ones who are more than the others.because they are not like us.

so Brothers:lets be humbles!

[LorenzoS]

I dont know where you could read any of that.

What I understood is that this person preferred purchasing from people who keep their Business and their religious interests

separate. That to me is an absolutely understandable point of view. When going to Church one makes the choice to be busy with

God - everybody probably was irritated when the Priest started preaching Voxels, Brushes and the great Retopology.

I well understand why this equation also works the other way round. Please don't talk of Hate. That's a strong word.

One shouldn't use it frivolously.

Huh...

Bottom line. They guy didn't buy the program for an absolute frivolous reason.

Andrews heart is why I discovered what in invaluable tool 3dc is. The opposite of meshman!

Who obviously signed up to the forums just to share his hate. Remember, he's not a user.

[digman]

This is not from a Christian standpoint but a logical one, based upon some things that are happening in American society.

Where should a Christian be allowed to practice his faith?

He is not allowed to wear christan symbols at work or speak to fellow employees about faith. (The christian's actions might offend someone)

He cannot even use the word God at school or show support for his faith (The christian actions might offend someone)

He is close to committing hate crimes if he preaches that a man will be judge by his actions that he commits in this world. (The christian's actions might offend someone)

He cannot speak about faith on his own company's website. (The christian's actions might offend someone)

The above is not happening everywhere in America but it is happening. Are we the thought and actions police for christians. Must they be gagged, forcing the christian to only practice their faith in their homes. In the name of tolerance we become intolerable. Open disscusion never has cause harm to anyone. If you disagree with Andrew, post your opposing view of the world in the off-topic section but not to buy his software because his expresses his faith is from my point of view not very logical or tolerant...

[michalis]

@digman

lot of +++++

Its so simple, its not about Christians or other religious people. To be yourself is not aloud by some "politically correct" people. They have their "own" god, I know, is called, "money" why not?

What I noticed (and bought 3dc right away) was that Andrew wasn't afraid to be himself. Its so simple for me, what Andrew writes there, its not really about christianity, its about him. Its about his beliefs. If this is offensive then I can only say "maybe for you, not for me".

I do my crits on 3dcoat, I'm a "loud speaker' probably but I believe in human relationship, not money.

[Unleashed]

This is not from a Christian standpoint but a logical one, based upon some things that are happening in American society.

Where should a Christian be allowed to practice his faith?

He is not allowed to wear christan symbols at work or speak to fellow employees about faith. (The christian's actions might offend someone)

He cannot even use the word God at school or show support for his faith (The christian actions might offend someone)

He is close to committing hate crimes if he preaches that a man will be judge by his actions that he commits in this world. (The christian's actions might offend someone)

He cannot speak about faith on his own company's website. (The christian's actions might offend someone)

The above is not happening everywhere in America but it is happening. Are we the thought and actions police for christians. Must they be gagged, forcing the christian to only practice their faith in their homes. In the name of tolerance we become intolerable. Open disscusion never has cause harm to anyone. If you disagree with Andrew, post your opposing view of the world in the off-topic section but not to buy his software because his expresses his faith is from my point of view not very logical or tolerant...

What on earth are you talking about, close to committing hate crimes? The rest of your points arent even worth commenting on with such extremities. America is FAR more religious than many other western countries, texas is known for being part of the "bible belt" of states.

Its simple professionalism, stop thinking like your religion is the only one. What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism or go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions for more. In the professional world, to an extent you must supress some of these things to work together. By preaching one thing you will start to alienate others. I dont go around stating my disbelief of such things, and from coworkers I expect them not to.

What you guys have conveniently ignored along with leigh/alot of the other cgtalk people is the real reason why 3dcoat doesnt have a higher adoption rate. People mentioned ui, state of the tools etc. But please, if you guys think its religion you can keep chasing your own tails.

[michalis]

professionalism

Please explain what this word means. For You! This ordinary word may be seriously offensive to me. Who told you so, where is this written? In a few years this word may not exist IMO.