Advanced Member wave of light Posted January 18, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I don't find the naming conventions in 3DC an issue and they shouldn't be, once you've studied tutorials, manuals, etc. I do, however, feel that a lot of the stuff you need to complete the workflow is hidden away in menus and for newbies, this could be an issue. So don't change the names, but make them more findable. e.g. Autopo is a second tier selection (you have to right click on a layer to access it). That way old tutorials are still applicable, or you just have to do what Phil said and apply a little common sense. For goodness sake, look at Lightwave as an example... there's stuff all over place and that's suppose to be one of the 'easier' 3D packages to learn. But as I previously stated, I think 3DC is looking a lot more user friendly now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted January 18, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 3DCoat has grown in power in the last few years and with power come more features, drop down selections and what appears to be hidden items, etc. This can be sometimes overwhelming to the new user but with any new powerful program there is a steep learning curve. I am learning Blender this year and it is to me a challenging program to learn but that is because I am new. I know basic stuff, rendering in Cycles, easy node-setups etc. Talk about what appears to be hidden stuff to a new user, Blender has tons more than 3DCoat. A seasoned Blender user knows the ends and outs of the program and can zip through stuff at lightspeed. I'm not there yet but I will enjoy the ride of learning, so enjoy learning 3DCoat, you will progress and in time become a seasoned user. The statement does not mean there can not be some improvements but the interface of 3DCoat is not bad considering all the new features added since 3.0... I am thinking about upgrading my Skype account so I can share my screen with up to 10 Skype users. My time is limited this year(Medical stuff) but that way I could have a 3DCoat learning session a couple times a month for any new users... The one drawback is that I am a English only speaker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 18, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Seriously sometimes I feel really sad reading what user say. Stating exactly what I said (with a few others) a few months/years ago, in a written doc... The saddest part is some don't even know they're actually using tools that could be SO much easier to use and are content. I'm happy for them (really), but it makes me sad to know that others aren't that fortunate and still have to deal with issues which could be solved with just a month of work max... This reminds me of the bug fixing phase which didn't really shown progress until a few of us asked Andrew and Raul to use the software (and fix a lot of the nastiest bugs in the voxel room), or whne AbnRanger pleaded for multithreading even when Andrew wasn't willing to do it which led to a massive boost in surface<>voxel switching. Not willing to make the big changes (which are not even that big here, just moving things around and changing some terms !) when needed :/ You have to know that not even a third of the ~30 pages doc submitted was used for the ui changes (doc which was started by LJB and later me+Javis and is the starting base of the new ui you actually see). And so far no changes have been happening since september last year (yeah). Latest new: v4 release is planned for roughly 2 months. You see what I'm getting at ? If the UI was open to change I could make my point so easily :x for now I've cold feet because I know what could be made which would makes a lot of sense. And I sound like a total ass, but I don't care because I'm not even saying this for myself but to move this app (and the community) forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member b33nine Posted January 18, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Anyone else having problems with the new spline stroke in beta 10? I can't get it to actually stroke the spline at all. edit: it seems related to brush radius size, anything smaller than .015 won't make a mark with the spine stroke tool (which is far too big for my purposes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 18, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Which room ? It works fine here. Edit: maybe you should play with your scene scale cause that number is very low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member b33nine Posted January 18, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 paint room. Can you change the scale of the model from within the paint room? I just paint the models, I don't make em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 18, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Maybe (I don't know how if it's possible), but if it's only an import you could just rescale it temporary (if scale is important to you) in an external software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member b33nine Posted January 18, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I scaled it up to twice as large and that didn't fix it, it seems it has problems with any brush under a given size in relation to the model, it only starts to work on a brush size that is 2-3x too big (for my purposes) regardless of the scale of the model it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Seriously sometimes I feel really sad reading what user say. Stating exactly what I said (with a few others) a few months/years ago, in a written doc... The saddest part is some don't even know they're actually using tools that could be SO much easier to use and are content. I'm happy for them (really), but it makes me sad to know that others aren't that fortunate and still have to deal with issues which could be solved with just a month of work max... This reminds me of the bug fixing phase which didn't really shown progress until a few of us asked Andrew and Raul to use the software (and fix a lot of the nastiest bugs in the voxel room), or whne AbnRanger pleaded for multithreading even when Andrew wasn't willing to do it which led to a massive boost in surface<>voxel switching. Not willing to make the big changes (which are not even that big here, just moving things around and changing some terms !) when needed :/ You have to know that not even a third of the ~30 pages doc submitted was used for the ui changes (doc which was started by LJB and later me+Javis and is the starting base of the new ui you actually see). And so far no changes have been happening since september last year (yeah). Latest new: v4 release is planned for roughly 2 months. You see what I'm getting at ? If the UI was open to change I could make my point so easily :x for now I've cold feet because I know what could be made which would makes a lot of sense. And I sound like a total ass, but I don't care because I'm not even saying this for myself but to move this app (and the community) forward. I could not agree more. You don't see me doing much on the UI any more. It feels like all the ideas we spent a LONG time working on were overlooked, if not completely ignored altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted January 19, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Changing tools in the Retopo room sure is slow (and things like deselecting all verts/faces, and selecting the first vert/face, etc) Other than that, this is a fantastic update! Good work Andrew! I have created a Mantis bug report for this lag problem. I know it effects the latest Linux 4.00.Beta9C 64 bit non cuda version. If it effects your Linux version and any Window users who have the same problem,please confirm it at Mantis. It is not a video card driver issue as Linux 3.7.18F 64 bit non cuda has no lag in the retopo room or lag in changing rooms. Bug report. 0000909 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I scaled it up to twice as large and that didn't fix it, it seems it has problems with any brush under a given size in relation to the model, it only starts to work on a brush size that is 2-3x too big (for my purposes) regardless of the scale of the model it seems. I wanted to reply to this yesterday but didn't have my passwords with me. Sometimes I've to scale around 100x to get a size that works inside 3dcoat. What is the radius number when you selected the desired size for your stroke ? If it's still very low it means you still need to scale up more (sometimes it's ridiculous the difference between an app and 3dcoat). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member bocs Posted January 19, 2013 Member Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 using 4.0 Beta 10 (cuda)(GL64) Trying to learn the tools, but I'm confused if this is a bug or my error... What the video is trying to show: New Voxel room....Sketch tool... Modify Images....apply (or enter)...works clear...modify..apply...works reset sketch...modify...apply...weird fill reset sketch...modify...apply...nothing fill..modify..apply...weird fill clear...modify...weird fill also not shown...if I translate or scale the images it's like it crops the volume seems if I don't reset, fill, scale, move, or clear it works as expected... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFGr6K96MMU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted January 19, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Just a confirmation that some nice bugs were indeed fixed in beta 10. The mantis bug digman added which was about materials painting not respecting alpha seems to indeed be fixed. Now if you load a transparent decal with color, spec, & depth maps, and paint the material, the depth and specs follow the image correctly and whereever is transparent is ignored in each channel - just as expected. before, depth and spec would get painted by stroke into the depth and spec channels despite the material having no data in the transparent part. One caveat, that you should know (and now that I play with it like this it makes sense this way) is that if you load a material decal (i.e. an image surrounded by transparency) into a material slot with say color and depth, but you don't select a spec map, then the alpha is respected for depth and color, but not for spec - the spec gets painted by your brush stroke as normal. However if you either turn the spec channel off, or load a solid black image in - then no spec is painted. At first I thought "not loading a spec map" would ignore it when painting with a material, but on second thought it works better here how Andrew has made it, so you have more flexibility this way and can always either load in a black image for an unwanted channel or turn off that channel when painting with that chosen material. Nice work Andrew - thanks for fixing it! And thanks digman for posting the bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member popwfx Posted January 19, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 That tutorial problem happens all the time with software. I've Been trying to learn Nuke and Digital Tutors has a number of old tutorials up where tools have been moved or renamed since then. It was a little confusing but I figured it out. I used to teach LW in NY some years ago, and this is partly why I stopped instructing. Keeping up with current & changing curriculae/documentation and videos was a nightmare with screenshots and screen captures because the UI had changed. I loved instruction, but hated making the docs stay relevant over time. Unfortunately for a moving target like software, this is the name of the game. Better tutorial organization by the creators would help (i.e. naming the video with the 3DC version # in the title) but that's a bit like putting a milk carton "Best Before" label on it and many older tutes have very useful information - even if they are a touch out of date. The only way around this is to check for later versioned tutorials first and also if the tute creator puts a Youtube comment overlay onto the video mentioning if the video contains techniques which no longer apply to the current version. That way end users could still get good stuff out of the video without the confusion you mention. It is a bit more work for the tutorial creators though and yet another reason why we should thank them and buy their wares to support them... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Quick Access: add the option to change UI look to textual or iconic. Mantis request 910 http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=910 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 In that doc too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 oh lol just find it... sorry im doing Copyright infringement -With separate option to enable Icons in the Quick panel -Slider (or preset sizes like the shader/tool icon previews) for Quick panel Icon size ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- back to the thread So the idea is to make a petition to Andrew asking if is possible to elevate - UI enhancements and improvements to the same priority level that - Bug fixing is it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Something like that ? As for the petition this request was done on textual com, in the doc, at this point I doubt a petition to request it once more will change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 The work Andrew/Raul done with stability and bug fixing really shows. I prefer the dev team focuses in stability update until V4 release. And to do in between some UI tweaks. Because i duno how modular the 3DC code is. To remake UI adding changes and new features can make the code explode ? Anyway... if its modular may be is time to split the dev team, with a new team member focused in the UI changes. Just for a few time... to speed up skyrocket the V4 final release. Thats will make it shines like deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I agree stability is ALWAYS priority number one. But the issue is if V4 offer liveclay (most important selling point imo) with good stability this will certainly be enough reason for most v3 users to upgrade, beyond that the ui will still be very wonky to use and throw off potential new users. If the plan is to keep the current user base (with a small increase in number due to a few new users) then it's perfectly ok, if the idea is to get more users on board, the ui issues must be adressed before v4 release. Because it'll be hard to convince new users to get onboard if the UI is worked on in v4 beta cycle (since the stable release will be the one advertised on the site without the ui changes and we all know how much we need to repeat to "try the new beta" to new users...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted January 19, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I noticed in Linux Version 4.00.Beta9C 64 bit version that you no longer can type in a number pass 100% for smoothing... Very little smoothing takes place at 100% at higher voxel resolutions so it takes a long,long,long time to smooth out an area... I would suggest giving us the ability to to at least type in a higher percentage or increase the power of smoothing percentage wise. Higher numbers = large smoothing degree Smaller number = less smoothing degree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I think this cap was added because it was generating explosions and terrible mesh protrusion at percentages higher than 100% in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted January 19, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I agree stability is ALWAYS priority number one. But the issue is if V4 offer liveclay (most important selling point imo) with good stability this will certainly be enough reason for most v3 users to upgrade, beyond that the ui will still be very wonky to use and throw off potential new users. If the plan is to keep the current user base (with a small increase in number due to a few new users) then it's perfectly ok, if the idea is to get more users on board, the ui issues must be adressed before v4 release. Because it'll be hard to convince new users to get onboard if the UI is worked on in v4 beta cycle (since the stable release will be the one advertised on the site without the ui changes and we all know how much we need to repeat to "try the new beta" to new users...) I have to disagree on the interface scaring away new users. ZBrush would have a small user base if you went by strictly the style of the interface. Many, many people do not like Zbrush's interface but it is a major player in the sculpting world. I see the need for improvements in 3DCoat interface but nothing that would prevent a new user from not buying the program based solely on the interface itself... My opinion of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I didn't say we needed to change the entirety of the ui. That's the point, I keep repeating they're easy, obvious changes to be done to make the ui as tight as mudbox's one (everyone agree the ui is very simple/intuitive to use) it just need a bit of tidying up. The ui is standard, anyone using a 3dpackage/2d software can learn 3dcoat easily, it has traditional menus/contextual menus, icons, dropdown, buttons. What is needed is consolidating those tool under a logical hierarchy, and grouping entries. That's all ! Zbrush has a large userbase because it was the first, the toolset is awesome, but the ui is terrible (but the userbase is already there so everyone stick to it) Mudbox has a large userbase (much less larger but still) because it has an UI any traditional sculptor can jump in without hours of lecture. <(actually this is exactly the opposite of 3dcoat right now: you NEED to look at tutorials to understand many of the features, not only because they're special but also because the commands are scattered all over the place) 3dcoat can be the best of both worlds here: the toolset of zbrush and the same bases as the mudbox UI, it's his strenght ! I've the feeling that I'm almost the only one not stopping at my user experience and actualy want the software to succeed as a commercial product not just "my tool"... Tell me I'm wrong please ! I have to disagree on the interface scaring away new users. ZBrush would have a small user base if you went by strictly the style of the interface. Many, many people do not like Zbrush's interface but it is a major player in the sculpting world. I see the need for improvements in 3DCoat interface but nothing that would prevent a new user from not buying the program based solely on the interface itself... My opinion of course... No, it doesn't scare new users to TRY it, but many after the trial go use zbrush again (if they're coming from it) or go try it because 3dc UI is sometimes so confusing you just give up (I've go plenty of industry veteran doing this) and this is not only the fault of a possible lack of documentation (honestly it's starting to stack up pretty nicely) it's because it's annoying (and time consuming) to keep searching for "that thing I saw earlier, where is it again...". I know you'll say: "But it's worse in zbrush!" TRUE, thing is Zbrush is in conquered territory, 3dc is not. It's pilgways job to make the transition as smooth as possible for old zbrush users as new user alike to make it attractive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted January 19, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 You are not wrong Beat on some changes that can take place for improving the interface, I was only saying that the interface as it stands now would not prevent someone from buying 3DCoat. That again is my 2 cents worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Tony Nemo Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Maybe a two man development team needs some help. I visit Mantis and all I see are bug reports. Where is the wish list? If a consolidated list of the "easy, obvious changes" could appear on Mantis, perhaps their implementation could be expedited. I would really like 3D-Coat "to succeed as a commercial product". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Tony Nemo, I did a thread about the voxel brushes issues in my sig: ignored. Before that I did a "functions not saved between/during sessions":ignored. Many other thread about suggestions on the program I don't even remember in other topic, long gone now: * We did a ~30pages Ui overhaul doc with LJB and Javis, full of explaination and mockups such as the one posted above: ignored (or at least almost ignored, the quick access/preset/text-icon tools and a few cosmetics changes are the result, which may be what, 2 pages maybe ?): guess what... What else can I do except come here and repeat ? Tell me. I said that a few times now, some people told me "wait they'll do it". Right. Two months left apparently now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 i duno... in my opinion 3DC GUI is fine, need some tweaks for sure the biiiiiiiiiiggggg deal is: - Standard naming convention - Up to date terminology rename: Lot of titles/tools/rooms are still using old v2 v3 names. Voxel Room (?), VoxTree(?)... - And last but not less important: Please GROUP every tool in the same window following a WORKFLOW. An example ? Sure... look at this Philnolan request about Moving Proxy Visualization. >>>>> Easy to do... but ENORMOUS time saver !! <<<<< 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted January 19, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 We're thinking alike then. It's that kind of changes we we're pushing forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted January 19, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 I think just the naming changes are needed prior to the release. That way it's viewed as part of the overall V4 changes/enhancements. UI structure changes can take place in the normal V4 (post release) cycle. Again, my proposed changes are: 1) Fix typos 2) Change Materials Panel to something like "Surfaces" to alleviate the confusion of seeing 2 different "Materials" tabs in the same UI. That is embarrassing for an app that is trying to compete with those that are staples in Game and film studios worldwide 3) Change Carcass Mesh to something more appropriate, like "Viewport Mesh" 4) Change Autopo to Auto-Retopo. No confusion at all, and it's not hard to pronounce. 5) Change "Move Vertices" in Retopo Room, to "Move Elements" 6) Change "Masks" to "Stencils" to remove any confusion with Layer Masks or Masking (Freeze tool) in other apps. They are appropriately named "Stencils" in Mudbox, and is the most accurate term (at least in English, anyway). 7) Change "Voxel" Room (tab) to "Adv. Sculpt" (Advanced Sculpting) Room. Why? Because most of the focus, in the past few years, has been on Surface mode sculpting. When V3 was released, the focus was all on Voxels. It is now a full-blown dual-platform workspace. The word Advanced also implies that there are Basic Sculpting tools elsewhere in the App...meaning even more options. 8 Texture Editor is a MAJOR part of the Painting toolset, so there is no way it should be hidden in a Menu, where a new user would have a hard time finding it on their own. Either leave it docked within the default layout, at least, or add an icon that toggles it open (to the left of the panels on the right side of the UI). I asked Andrew about this before and he agreed that an icon would be best. I think he just forgot. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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