3DCoat 4.9 BETA testing thread

[Andrew Shpagin]

18.09.20 4.9.61 (stable)

- Brush engine polished essentially, parameters split into sections, Build Up mode remastered.

- Brush engine got (optional) mode similar to the "Absolute brush" action. It is in the buildup settings.

- Jitters for the brush engine.

- Presets & surface tools in voxel mode are working correctly.

- Fixed mesh corruption in the retopo room during the subdivision (sometimes).

- Fixed possible infinite loop in AO calculation.

- Fixed strange offside shadow of the activity bar.

- Fixed problem of stencil + disabled "Show voxels in paint room"

- Fixed unmovable mapping settings dialog.

[digman]

"Fixed unmovable mapping settings dialog. I confirm that this is fixed.

New Problem:

When the mapping settings dialog is open and movable, now you can not move / position the preview window. 

I have not checked the other bugs that I informed Carlosan about and he submitted bug reports on.  Since they were not mentioned as  being fixed I assumed they are not at this time but will check.

[geoath]

2 hours ago, digman said:

New Problem:

When the mapping settings dialog is open and movable, now you can not move / position the preview window.

With the mapping settings dialog open  you can't move / position the preview window in version 4.9.59 (GL) as well!

Edited September 18, 2020 by geoath

[Silas Merlin]

Tooltips don't work anymore in 4.9.61 or is it just on my side ?

it is bad because when you don't see tooltips, you don't see smart material names....

Edited September 18, 2020 by Silas Merlin
I was wrong it was a glitch

[tokikake]

10 hours ago, Andrew Shpagin said:

18.09.20 4.9.61 (stable)- Fixed unmovable mapping settings dialog.

Thanks!

Then when I use tool option, in  geometry editting room, they sometimes suddenly disappear, or hidden all options. untill I change view as Full size.

I suppose it is not discribed in new up-date , then maybe this issue remain like this pic.  It seems only happen about Edit geometry room tool.

I could confirm, change tool to (Select/transform) tool cause this issue. (hide options )

2 from the pic, if I try to move the tool option tab, it usually disappear perfectly.. (I can not move the tab)

3. Once it happen, I can not return tool option menu untill I change to view full size

3 if I change view as full size,, it sometimes appear .

========

reproduce 

1. load mesh in paint room,  change 3d view not full size. 

2. change room > Edit geometry

3. change tool to Move, then change tool Select/Transform..  if view is not full,, all option disappear. if change view as Full, options visible again.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by tokikake

[digman]

Windows Beta Version 4.9.61. 

You still can not bake to the paint room one Paint Object and surface materials. 

Simple Example:

A sphere with one uv set but two retopo objects.  That is I put half of the retopo mesh on another retopo object layer. Total retopo object layers "2" but only one uv set.

I need the retopo object layers to be baked as 2 surface materials and one paint object. 

This is not possible in the current beta version.  You get 2 paint objects and one surface material regardless of settings in the bake menu panel.

If the option has been removed could it be restored. There are many cases where you need retopo objects treated as surface materials and not being baked as separate paint objects.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by digman
corrections

[digman]

Windows Beta Version 4.9.61.

Still not possible to create at least some shaders in the sculpt room that recognize a normal map. 

Using a height map will crash 3DC at times still. if 3DC does not crash the height map will have no effect.

I tested version 4.8.15 and I have no problem with using normal maps in creating the same shader in the sculpt room.

[Andrew Shpagin]

58 minutes ago, digman said:

Windows Beta Version 4.9.61. 

You still can not bake to the paint room one Paint Object and surface materials. 

Simple Example:

A sphere with one uv set but two retopo objects.  That is I put half of the retopo mesh on another retopo object layer. Total retopo object layers "2" but only one uv set.

I need the retopo object layers to be baked as 2 surface materials and one paint object. 

This is not possible in the current beta version.  You get 2 paint objects and one surface material regardless of settings in the bake menu panel.

If the option has been removed could it be restored. There are many cases where you need retopo objects treated as surface materials and not being baked as separate paint objects.

 

I don't see a problem there, logically

One uv-set (texture) = one material

One retopo roup = one object

[Carlosan]

Valid if you are not working with uDims.

But currently we cant use multi materials on one object with UVtiles.

How -when paint textures- can be assigned materials to each or selected group of UVsets/UV tiles ?

(and export it later, oc)

Thx

[digman]

I can understand how you see it logically but when you want only one uv set with multiple materials, it is not possible.  

You can in modelling programs set multiple materials to one object but have only one uv set.

Example:

I do not need multiple uv sets or multiple retopo objects.  I can not assign a material for a shirt, or pants . I want the pants and shirt to be in the same uv set as the body but a material assigned to them.  I do not need high resolution detail here.  The person is far from the camera and does not fill much screen space pixels.

Then In the paint room I can select to fill the shirt and paints by Surface material and not paint object. 

I would have one paint object but two materials.

Edited September 19, 2020 by digman
more informatiion

[digman]

Also when importing a model with one uv set but with multiple materials directly into the paint room for per pixel painting ,  You get several paint objects with only one material.  This is not desired. You want one object and several surface materials  in 1 uv set.

My questions are only to help me understand.

I understand your logic. It is just confusing somewhat for general 3D work.

A retopo object more or less is a "material" or acts like one with one uv set.  If I want multiple materials on an object with one uv set, It is now divided up into multiple retopo objects when baking or importing.

Question, What is the use of filling by surface material if we can not from the retopo room  or importing get separate materials in one uv set and not separate objects.

I get one material but multiple objects all on the same uv set when baking or importing.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by digman
added information.

[Silas Merlin]

it is only the terminology that is confusing, but there is no way around that, each software is bound to have their own.

I think 3d-Coat can hold only one "uv-set" (in the general sense, outside of 3d-Coat), is that correct ?

Where it gets confusing is that in the retopo room you are led to believe that you are able to create multiple "uv-set"s. But wait, it becomes clear when you bake to the paint room and those UV-sets become "surface materials" : It seems that what 3d-Coat means by "Uv-set" is in fact "material".

In order to get multiple materials (surface materials) on one single objects, you need to create and assign different parts of the geometry to different "uv-sets" in the retopo room before baking.

As far as I know, if you import one object made elsewhere with multiple materials, it will import as one object with several "surface materials". If it does not do this and it creates several paint objects instead, I have never seen that (I'd like to see an example), if it does that, I think it must be a matter of how that object was created and exported. different settings should result in one paint object/retopo object and several surface materials/"uv-sets"

Also, a surface material can be distributed accross several paint objects/retopo objects.
Here is an example : (remember, uv-sets will become surface materials in the paint room, and retopo objects will become paint objects)

[digman]

@ Silas 

Yes, it is confusing.  A uv set is considered a surface material and one material per uv set as Andrew mentioned.  To have multiple surface materials you need multiple uv sets but wait...

Retopo objects act as materials in a sense.  You now have to have multiple retopo objects to have separate materials so to speak in one uv set. 

Long ago in 3DC you could get one paint object and several surface materials. Under the hood of course things have changed, my request is just give us the option of choosing which we method we desire.

I later in a pm with send you couple of files one model with one uv set and multiple materials for you to test.

 

[digman]

To make it clear:

I am not asking to do away with the current method but only give the option to choose which method we need for a project we are working on.

[Silas Merlin]

One object -> multiple materials :

 

 

IMHO 3dc lets you do many combinations, but what it doesn't let you do is :
-work with UDIM
-Export several materials to a single texture (Workaround : you need to unify uv for that)
-Export only one object from the scene. (Workaround : you need to either delete paint objects, or export selected from retopo room but the drawback to that second method is that textures won't be assigned to the object (they won't load automatically in the next software))

Edited September 19, 2020 by Silas Merlin

[digman]

Of course I know what you just shown in your picture. 4 uv sets gives me four surface materials.  I do not want 4 uv sets to get 4 surface materials. 

You and me I are long time users of 3DC knowing ins and outs of 3DC. 

My request is still valid in my opinion.

Edit. I see you edited your post. Those are some of the very reasons I am requesting the change.

Edited September 19, 2020 by digman
more information.

[Silas Merlin]

10 minutes ago, digman said:

Of course I know what you just shown in your picture. 4 uv sets gives me four surface materials.  I do not want 4 uv sets to get 4 surface materials. 

You and me I are long time users of 3DC knowing ins and outs of 3DC. 

My request is still valid in my opinion.   

I only know 3d-Coat, nothing else... (Blender for rigging and things that 3dc doesn't do, but that's it)
So, I would like one clarification : am I correct in saying that in truth, even when you export several objects and several sets of textures, they are all on one single "UV-set" as far as other software are concerned ?

Edited September 19, 2020 by Silas Merlin

[Carlosan]

Other softwares allow Multiple UVsets on a single objects too.

[Andrew Shpagin]

Really, agree that UV-set in Coat is actually material in other soft.

So I see no actual proposal. Retopo groups are objects. And you may fill objects separately in the fill tool if need.

Reading UDIM - do multiple uv-sets and export them as UDIM.

[digman]

I can understand that you see no need but let me explain one example. 

Example:

I bake from the retopo room my sphere example. 

I get one material for the uv set but 2 paint objects.

Do my work. Export model for Unreal engine as a FBX model

The model will import as 2 separate models left half and right half ( my sphere example) with one material one each for each model.

Now if I combine the model in the FBX imports settings in Unreal, I will get one model with 2 materials.  

Hexagon imports the exported sphere as 2 separate objects "left and right" as well. 

Other software could read the exported model as 2 separate models and separate materials as well.  Some software will read it as one model but not all. 

The above is most imported reason for the request. Having one model on export with multiple materials is desired but not multiple uv sets.  Please reconsider your final thoughts on the matter. Thank you as always. 

 

[digman]

One more and then I will leave the matter alone as I stated as best I can my case. As always your hard work and the development team is highly thought of. 

 Blender will import the model as two objects if I spit by groups in the import settings upon import otherwise it will import the model as one. The obj file that is written splits the model into two groups, one for the left and one for the right. I am not talking about the mtl file here but the obj file which can be read by notepad as it is a text file.

[tokikake]

3 hours ago, Andrew Shpagin said:

Really, agree that UV-set in Coat is actually material in other soft.

So I see no actual proposal. Retopo groups are objects. And you may fill objects separately in the fill tool if need.

Reading UDIM - do multiple uv-sets and export them as UDIM.

Yes as you said, it is logicall.

But actually I use material group to divide shader . so I can set different shader property but still use same UDIM tile texture.

eg I may gather all mouse parts in same UV tile = UV sets (in 3d coat), then I paint them.

but I can still divide teeth, innermouse , lips as separate material group. (in blender etc)

If you paint or atach smart materials,  for teeth or innner part mouse area,, you may hope to hide un-necessary part carefully. If 3d coat keep material group,

I can really easy do it, just select lips hide them, or just select teeth only with material group.

Of course 3d coat offer many tools to hide poligons easy, or I can use freeze etc.  but I already set material group for the purpose in another aprication.

Then  basically I hope to keep it when import to 3d coat.  Actually if 3d coat can import material group (shader domain group, or material ID etc,, each app may call different name) with keep UDIM tile (Or UV sets) separately,  it enhance workflow mach.  So I request it.  

Actually when I import to 3d coat, I needed to change material gorup as UV tile. Though it work. but it means I lost flexibility which I have.

(change shader nodes for lips only or teeth only etc)  then I need to re-make it in my render apricaiton again. (I need rigging for most of my hobby work so can not do everything even though 3d coat will enhance more with shader nodes system)

Edited September 19, 2020 by tokikake

[tokikake]

Then I do not remember, if old version worked or not,, but in Retopo room, if I try to select multiple island with Lasso or rectangle brush option, it not work.

I can only select one island click again and again,, eg how you quick select all these peaces without any selection group?  

after all I can only select each small island one by one. then can divide them as another retopo group.

(but the mesh have been assgined as each part material grouop in paint room,, so I do not know why 3d coat not keep material group.

when I "use visible paint mesh as retopo mesh)  It is not complain. just hope to know if it is bug, or current limitation.

[digman]

You have to go to mark seams under the UV tab to select multiple uv islands with the spline tools.  Then you can move them to a new retopo group layer.

 

[tokikake]

10 hours ago, digman said:

You have to go to mark seams under the UV tab to select multiple uv islands with the spline tools.  Then you can move them to a new retopo group layer.

 

Thanks I did not know it.  I try again ^^

[Silas Merlin]

I wonder, Is the behaviour of the Symmetrical copy tool for translation symmetry the desired behaviour ?

What it does currently is duplicate all the voxels on the layer on each axis that is set to more than zero clones.
which means that each time you press the symmetrical copy button, your layer grows in those directions.

There is probably a use for this behaviour. however, I wonder, are any of you using it, and if yes, what for ?

In other symmetry types, when you use symmetrical copy, you intentionally choose one section of the layer which you want to duplicate and replace the other side of the symmetry with.
you thus discard part of the layer.
I believe this is what is desired. it is how you expect symmetrical copy to work, I believe. Am I mistaken ?

If this is true, I think it would be expected that when you use it on translation symmetry, only the portion at the center would be duplicated, and everything else would be discarded :
In this scenario, you could use symmetrical copy an infinite number of times, and the layer would not grow.

 

---
Here is an example to try to explain why I am asking these questions :

I was experimenting with making a tileable terrain of sorts, and when I exported I discovered that it did not quite tile.
I thought of using symmetrical copy to ensure that it would indeed tile correctly, but the way the tool currently behaves does not achieve that.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Silas Merlin

[Carlosan]

On 9/19/2020 at 3:48 PM, Andrew Shpagin said:

Really, agree that UV-set in Coat is actually material in other soft.

So I see no actual proposal. Retopo groups are objects. And you may fill objects separately in the fill tool if need.

Reading UDIM - do multiple uv-sets and export them as UDIM.

 

On 9/19/2020 at 7:19 PM, tokikake said:

Of course 3d coat offer many tools to hide poligons easy, or I can use freeze etc.  but I already set material group for the purpose in another aplication.

Then  basically I hope to keep it when import to 3d coat.  Actually if 3d coat can import material group (shader domain group, or material ID etc,, each app may call different name) with keep UDIM tile (Or UV sets) separately,  it enhance workflow mach.  So I request it.  

Actually when I import to 3d coat, I needed to change material gorup as UV tile. Though it work. but it means I lost flexibility which I have.

Proposal: IDS & MASKS Map Types

Material ID: The Material ID output bakes a unique color for each material assigned to your high poly objects. The color is automatically applied, and the colors are picked so that they are as different as possible from the other colors. If you need specific material ID colors, you can apply the colors to the albedo of your high poly object’s materials, and bake an Albedo map.

Group ID: The Group ID output bakes a unique color for each material group.

Object ID: The Object ID output bakes a unique color for each material object.

UV ID: The UV ID output bakes a unique color for each UV island.

Alpha: The Alpha output bakes a map of the holes in the high poly mesh.

reference...

[tokikake]

22 minutes ago, Carlosan said:

 

Proposal: IDS & MASKS Map Types

Material ID: The Material ID output bakes a unique color for each material assigned to your high poly objects. The color is automatically applied, and the colors are picked so that they are as different as possible from the other colors. If you need specific material ID colors, you can apply the colors to the albedo of your high poly object’s materials, and bake an Albedo map.

Group ID: The Group ID output bakes a unique color for each material group.

Object ID: The Object ID output bakes a unique color for each material object.

UV ID: The UV ID output bakes a unique color for each UV island.

Alpha: The Alpha output bakes a map of the holes in the high poly mesh.

reference...

Can I keep talking here about UDIM vs UV set  or may better use mantis or request threads?

 " UV set"  and "UV tile" can not mix up. both 2 are for different work-flow. like "Glossy/ specular" or "roughess/metalness" (though there are more variation) 

 but "material group" (I may use this word as "user custom group to divide shader nodes")

so we can use "material group" for both work-flow. But "Material group" is not for texture, I think it mainly for "shader", on the other hands, "UVset" or "UV tile" is for texture.

So UVset can not represent "material group". it can not substitue of "Material group". if mateiral group = UV set,  it limit usage as  texture base only.

[digman]

I think since Andrew has replied and what I thought was broken is not. Of course what I requested still stands. I would suggest moving the thread to the feature request section of the forum where Udim and uvs sets can be discussed. or broken into two threads as not to be confused with each other. That is only my opinion of course.

I have been gone a lot in the last two years, only returning recently. I was keeping a track of 3DC but not using the software everyday. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by digman
added information.

[digman]

8 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

I wonder, Is the behaviour of the Symmetrical copy tool for translation symmetry the desired behaviour ?

What it does currently is duplicate all the voxels on the layer on each axis that is set to more than zero clones.
which means that each time you press the symmetrical copy button, your layer grows in those directions.

There is probably a use for this behaviour. however, I wonder, are any of you using it, and if yes, what for ?

In other symmetry types, when you use symmetrical copy, you intentionally choose one section of the layer which you want to duplicate and replace the other side of the symmetry with.
you thus discard part of the layer.
I believe this is what is desired. it is how you expect symmetrical copy to work, I believe. Am I mistaken ?

If this is true, I think it would be expected that when you use it on translation symmetry, only the portion at the center would be duplicated, and everything else would be discarded :
In this scenario, you could use symmetrical copy an infinite number of times, and the layer would not grow.

 

---
Here is an example to try to explain why I am asking these questions :

I was experimenting with making a tileable terrain of sorts, and when I exported I discovered that it did not quite tile.
I thought of using symmetrical copy to ensure that it would indeed tile correctly, but the way the tool currently behaves does not achieve that.

I have not used the translation symmetry until I saw your post. Still figuring out the tool.  It does appear that when use symmetrical copy it takes the whole object in the layer and translates with the clones as you discussed. If this is the expected behavior I do not know.