Advanced Member mocaw Posted February 16, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I look at it this way- even if 3 has only slight improvements to the painting aspects of the program it's still going to be the best 3D painting application for the money. Besides- I think Andrew has stated that MANY of the requests and features he has planned for the painting side of things are relatively trivial to implement compared to those of the voxel sculpting. So these will be in the final build. Voxels are important in that it allows 3DC more press and a wider user base. Voxel sculpting will allow 3DC to be compared more, and rightfully so, to other similar applications (zbrush and bodypaint come to mind). They are needed for 3DC to be increasingly seen as a professional application on the move. So while I totally agree that the painting features need to be worked on- since they are why so many of us originally came to 3DC in the first place, I think taking a step back and looking at the long term shows that sculpting AND painting and texture work should go hand in hand. Let's put it this way- is anyone here going to leave 3DC for XYZ because 3.x has somewhat improved painting/texturing and now voxels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member JimB Posted February 16, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Ondrej I completely agree that the voxel sculpting in 3dCoat is outstanding,all we are asking for is that the other aspects of the program are not ignored (Maximus3D beat me to it).Is Andrew trying to completely finish the voxel sculpting aspect of 3dCoat all in one go or will it be revised over a period of time for example v4 ,5,6 and so on I hope for Andrews sake its the latter,therefore there must be a little time and effort going spare to concentrate on the non sculpting issues. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor tree321 Posted February 16, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I will concede that the VS features are adequate for now at least for doing what has been done so far with the current feature set, maybe Andrew has more up his sleeve for this release. such as VS painting.I for one would like to see things wrap up with improvements on the present features to tighten up what's already there.There are still many bugs to fix and work flow issues to resolve before it's release so I would hope he doesn't rush it's release based on a predetermined time.The quality of the product must be there to meet the demanding needs of current zbrush users as well as the new users to 3d-coat. I agree JimB this is an open forum and you are certainly entitled to share your views here.Sorry if I sounded harse, I just have such a passion for this software I can't help myself. I would just ask everyone to please be patient and let's see how far the great Andrew can take this program.Sorry for the angry gif I should have used this one or this one or maybe this one naw come to think about it :lol: Take care everyone and remember we're all in this together. Sincerely, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member JimB Posted February 16, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I just have such a passion for this software I can't help myself. I cant fault you for that in fact we are all passionate about 3dCoat I think. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member 3DArtist Posted February 16, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I can see both sides. I eagerly wait for any updates on sculpting but I could really be using the low-poly painting features also. But whatever Andrew brings in the future will be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psmith Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Voxel Painting versus Normal Painting I'm not sure why some consider it an advantage to directly paint on voxel sculptures. If rendering is implemented on the "regular" side of 3D Coat and we already have been furnished with the means to automatically mesh and UV map our voxel sculptures - all that remains is to start painting on the converted objects. Shader baking could be added to the voxel functions, however. Low poly meshing is in the works and the painting tools will be relatively trivial to improve, so all the functionality will be completed on the "regular" side of 3D coat. The voxel side has, as its main function, making "painting" and sculpting objects fast and fluid, which it already does. If anything, both "sides" or areas of the application might be made more unified so that voxel sculpting simply becomes a set of functions that are part of 3D Coat, as a whole. Psmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philnolan3d Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 FWIW, Q1 is January through to the end of March. So six weeks That is, unless Andrew was speaking of the fiscal 1st quarter. What do you think about cube placer manipulator? By my opinion it is good enough. It has all transforms. Maybe only thing to be changed there - set overall scale to (0,0,0) - control will look much more lightweight. I don't quite understand which one you mean either. If anything I would change the name from 3d-coat to 3D Artist Studio, cause that's what is is to me. Sounds like a great name to me! Voxel Painting versus Normal PaintingI'm not sure why some consider it an advantage to directly paint on voxel sculptures. At first I was all excited about that too, but with the changes in quadrangulation and retopo, plus the fact that it can be difficult to get really fine details with voxels, I'm starting to change my tuune. I'm happy with converting it to paint I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Mantis Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Voxel Painting versus Normal Painting I'm not sure why some consider it an advantage to directly paint on voxel sculptures. At first I was all excited about that too, but with the changes in quadrangulation and retopo, plus the fact that it can be difficult to get really fine details with voxels, I'm starting to change my tuune. I'm happy with converting it to paint I think. Plus the fact that Andrew said he will be able to add PTex I don't see the need to use Voxel painting anymore (even if I was not that much convince first). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member BluEgo Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 At first I was all excited about that too, but with the changes in quadrangulation and retopo, plus the fact that it can be difficult to get really fine details with voxels, I'm starting to change my tuune. I'm happy with converting it to paint I think.Plus the fact that Andrew said he will be able to add PTex I don't see the need to use Voxel painting anymore (even if I was not that much convince first). Well, in the end painting directly on voxels is not so useful, cause usually you have to convert them to classic meshes to render your voxel outside 3D coat, even if I would like to see this implemented in the future. Maybe the only "painting" I would like to see, is the chance to mask the voxel, really important to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted February 17, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 It is mainly visual feature. BUT. Now there is "Quadrangulate and paint". There is only one step (2 days of work) between shaders and dropping rendered result from multiple views to painting mode.Algoritm to be used: Render mesh in some projection, bring points from projection to texture (weight is more for forward - oriented faces), repeat this step from multiple projections. But of course it are dreams... But they can become real... (quote taken from shader topic) WOWWOWWOWOWOWOW This is the most exciting piece of text coming from a developer I've ever heard in my short life. Andrew ,you nailed the most sensitive point in current highres sculpting solutions: Baking higres shading to lowres through automated projection. FREEDOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Don't worry about painting tools. They will be improved essentially until release. If there will be problems in time frame, I will move it forward slightly. Everyone understands how much work is done and should be done for this release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 OSX users please excuse for not making V57 for OSX, there was was problems with reinstalling OSX, but it is solved and build will come soon (today or maximum - tomorrow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Oh, I was not able to resist temptation again... And it is result... I was so easy and natural to implement cloth processing in volumetric approach... I was not able to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted February 17, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 It looks like real cloth simulation,is it a new surprise for next alpha? very effective result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member splodge Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 very nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member splodge Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 At first I was all excited about that too, but with the changes in quadrangulation and retopo, plus the fact that it can be difficult to get really fine details with voxels, I'm starting to change my tuune. I'm happy with converting it to paint I think. I feel the same way. I've resigned myself to using voxels for creating the basic shape and then painting the details using 3D Coat's regular painting tools. I see voxels as 3D Coat's answer to Zspheres. and it's a very good answer!. Although there's still concerns over obtaining LODs. This is something that's not a problem in ZBrush as you simply create a low res model first and then subdivide the model several times. As for directing painting onto textures that others have mentioned, I'm no longer too bothered about that. I find performance is fine using 3D Coat's current method. In fact I'm a little confused as to what 3D Coat's current method for painting actually is. Is it vertex paint?. If so, then how is it that I can switch to low poly mode and still paint on my object in fine detail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member ldzywsj Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 how is it that I can switch to low poly mode and still paint on my object in fine detail? I am also longing for it! Painting fine detail over low poly is my dream ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Mantis Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 About cloth, do you think it is possible to have inner curver while creating patch with the close curve feature, to be able to tweak them easily. Something like the picture. That would help to do complex cloth or cape easily, that's a real pain to do it in Zbush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member splodge Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I am also longing for it! Painting fine detail over low poly is my dream ! I think you may have misunderstood. I was actually saying that it seems that it's already possible. If you create a voxel model and quadrangulate it and then 'merge into scene', there's a 'view low-poly model' option in the View menu. With this active I can paint onto my low poly model in high detail. Maybe it's really a high resolution model that's not been smoothed. But still, performance seems fine for me. So what about you? Do you have poor performance when painting? Or do you want painting directly onto textures for other reasons?. I'm asking because I'm not sure why people are complaining about the current painting method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 About cloth, do you think it is possible to have inner curver while creating patch with the close curve feature, to be able to tweak them easily. Something like the picture. That would help to do complex cloth or cape easily, that's a real pain to do it in Zbush. Not very understood. But what is made: - import any mesh to be trated as cloth - run process - cloth will fall, you can lock some points and additonaly tweak cloth with brush (pull it), control friction and gravity in realtime. - subdivide it and merge with Enter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Mantis Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 That was not about cloth simulation, that was about creating cloth with curves. Because I prefer to sculpt cloth by myself instead of letting the simulation do the job. Right now you can only create an outline that will be filled, I would like to have some inner line like in the picture to have more control by creating inner line. Maybe this picture is more clear. The big red dot represent the points of the inner curves. Maybe I'm wrong but I was not able to do this right now. But what you have done seems quite amazing, maybe that can help when I'll be lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member TOXE Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 OSX users please excuse for not making V57 for OSX, there was was problems with reinstalling OSX, but it is solved and build will come soon (today or maximum - tomorrow). -TOXE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Roger_K Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Im impressed with the cloth, couldnt implement turbulent wavelet fluid simulation while your at it could you (I joke) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted February 17, 2009 Contributor Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 -import any mesh to be treated as cloth- run process - cloth will fall, you can lock some points and additonaly tweak cloth with brush (pull it), control friction and gravity in realtime. - subdivide it and merge with Enter. Wow! It is something I never would have dream seeing before 3DC v6 or 7.... Very impressive surprise . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member BluEgo Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Not very understood.But what is made: - import any mesh to be trated as cloth - run process - cloth will fall, you can lock some points and additonaly tweak cloth with brush (pull it), control friction and gravity in realtime. - subdivide it and merge with Enter. Really nice addiction! Anyway, stop to add new features Actually brushes give not the same experience than zbrush (are quite far to be comparable). I told this a lot of time in the past, but I have to repeat it. Even with cuda and my supercomputer, with a polycount of 4 millions, brushes could work in a fast way only with a veeeery little radius. I have to say that moving large volumes is really important, because is with this feature that you can really give a shape to your sculpture Currently I tried 3D coat only to build base shapes to be quadrangulated and then exported to zbrush, but it would be so nice if you could do all in 3dcoat. So I think you should consider what you want from voxel sculpting. If this is a tool only to make base shapes, you should consider to implement a FULL system to sculpt surfaces. I know you can already sculpt surfaces, but is really limited, and of course you can't go up and down with the subdivision level. If instead you want to give us the greatest sculpting eperience, well, work on voxel brushes !!! I saw that you continue to submit new brushes... they are really a lot, and I think that not all of them will survive in the latest release. Because we are in alpha stage, I understand you are trying all the possibilities about the tools, but if you want to release in the first quarter, stop experimenting with the brushes, and improve the already existing. 3Diiot gave you the specifics for a correct brush system long long time ago. I saw that you improved clay voxel brush in the last release, now is working really better, but the profile of the stroke is not smooth as I would like. You should implement also a graph editor for the brush profile. Some tools, like carve, are so "digital" in their aspect, that I think are not so useful, and strokes are really straight. Surface tools for voxels are not the solution, most of all at lower resolution because what you draw is not what you get. Anyway the addition of a smooth surface tool will be a nice addition. In general, you should unify options for the brushes, so with only 4 or 5 brushes and different presetes, you could get a whole set of super tools. In the end, I don't know what to expect from the final release. It is so near... I don't know how to explain it better, but the first thing in a sculpting software is how you feel when sculpting with brushes, please don't forget it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PalSan Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Сори ,что по-русски) не удержался) Андрей. согласен с BluEgo. Мои действия носят аналогичный характер. Лепка общих форм. К сожалению для более быстрого, точного скульптинга использую Mudbox. Вот в последней работе пробовал делать складочки коатом, но все-таки был вынужден переместиться в мадбокс. На мой взгляд если есть временные рамки(а они как я понимаю есть)следует сосредоточить усилия на: 1) работа кистей, скорость и точность. 2) оптимизация скорости работы программы, снижения ресурсоемкости, если это конечно возможно в рамках данной технологии, максимальная оптимизация работы ядер процессора 3) возможность рисовать на воксельной моделе напрямую. 4) снятия дисплейса, нормалей напрямую с воксельной модели. 5) доделать последние фишки, квадроангуляцию,чтобы бы была пригодна для анимации сетка и если я понял правильно симулятор ткани. 6) изменение интерфейса. Желаю удачи и крепкого здоровья, потому как я понимаю работы еще предстоит много. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member BluEgo Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Сори ,что по-русски) не удержался) Андрей. согласен с BluEgo. Мои действия носят аналогичный характер. Лепка общих форм. К сожалению для более быстрого, точного скульптинга использую Mudbox. Вот в последней работе пробовал делать складочки коатом, но все-таки был вынужден переместиться в мадбокс. На мой взгляд если есть временные рамки(а они как я понимаю есть)следует сосредоточить усилия на: 1) работа кистей, скорость и точность. 2) оптимизация скорости работы программы, снижения ресурсоемкости, если это конечно возможно в рамках данной технологии, максимальная оптимизация работы ядер процессора 3) возможность рисовать на воксельной моделе напрямую. 4) снятия дисплейса, нормалей напрямую с воксельной модели. 5) доделать последние фишки, квадроангуляцию,чтобы бы была пригодна для анимации сетка и если я понял правильно симулятор ткани. 6) изменение интерфейса. Желаю удачи и крепкого здоровья, потому как я понимаю работы еще предстоит много. Umh, can you translate in English please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PalSan Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 One moment, please) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PalSan Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Andrey. I agree with BluEgo. My actions bear analogous nature. Modelling of common forms. For more rapid, more precise sculpting I unfortunately use Mudbox. Here in the last work it tried to make folds with coat, but it was nevertheless forced to move into mudbox. In my view if there are the time frames (as I understand there are) efforts should be concentrated to: 1) the work of brushes, speed and accuracy. 2) the optimization of the speed of of program, reduction in resource consuming, if that is possible in this technology, the maximum optimization of work with multiple cores of processor 3) the possibility to sketch on the voxel model directly. 4) Displace map generation, normal map directly from the voxel model. 5) to complete last features, quadrongulation, so that grid would be suitable for the animation, and if I understood correctly the simulator of cloth. 6) a change in the interface. I wish you success and strong health, as I understand big work is still ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member wailingmonkey Posted February 17, 2009 Advanced Member Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ copy in the URL, choose russian->english you'll get the gist of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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