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Andrew Shpagin

V4.5 BETA (experimental)

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Masking layers are great, especially if vector based but its not the best solution... I actually think Substance Painter hit on the best design approach, which was to have both masking channels attached to layers/groups + modifier sublayers (HSL..ect), as well as allow for temporary masking (basically paint a mask like you would in zbrush). Its a combo that hits just about every part of that particular workflow. Quick masking for sculpting and painting, layers for longer term post paint modification and modifier nodes (sublayers) to tweak parameters and create certain effects.

Would be nice to see 3DCoat delve deep into that kind of workflow/mindset, even possibly have nodes or a texture/material/effects room (layer or node based), a bit like substance designer but more streamlined.

Edited by RabenWulf

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its already there, choose 'compatibility shader' from list in view menu.

(desc:This shader is maximally compatible with 4.1 and earlier.)

I know about the compatibility shader but you still have to make materials in the new way... What I am talking about is before PBR... That is what RabenWulf and alvordr are talking about I believe. I would like to have both ways as I stated, you do not always want to work through creating materials in the PBR fashion. Plus the use of your external ediior in the old fashion way.

 

I do know that these are beta versions and Andrew is still developing the PBR workflow, has to get that working right first...

Edited by digman

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Well the compatibility shader fixes one of the initial problems, which was that you could never get true black values displayed in the viewport. Its one part of the problem that he's addressed. Materials and how they work as opposed to the old method + spec vs gloss is the other.

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I don't agree. I use Clipping masks in Photoshop to make sure a layer never goes outside of another layer, but here's what's important: Every layer being clipped can then *still* have its own non-destructive alpha!

And then if it's in a group, *that* can also have its own alpha. Not to mention the Blend-If settings every layer has, which are amazing!

 

And to add a mask currently, we need to add a layer, paint on it, set its visibility to 0%, go into another layer's settings, select the layer you want to use as mask (which are now listed in reverse following order!), and then select your original layer again if you want to paint on it again.

Artman was right. PS is actually just stacking a separate mask layer onto the layer you are applying it to. That's why you can unlink the layer thumbnail from the mask thumbnail. They are two separate layers in reality...presented to the user in thumbnail form. While I have personally asked Andrew to add layer masks, in the past, the way it is done in PS....I have since come to realize that you effectively have the same thing in 3D Coat...just without the thumbnails. So, it's not as big a priority in my view, as is PERFORMANCE issues that have been raised over and over.

 

Especially non-functioning sliders. I mean trying to use them is utter futility. Them even being present in the UI is like Lucy holding the ball for Charlie Brown....you just know she is going to pull the ball at the last second. :)

 

Sliders in 3D Coat:

 

tumblr_nirdojTZZ51smmsbuo1_400.jpg

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Ask to make 3DC a Substance clone or Zbrush clone is not the way -from my point of view- to take.

 

All suggestion are welcome, but some solution are copy and paste of another developments.

 

The community need to found a creative way to understand how 3DC internally works, and how can be enhanced. Not asking to make a copy/paste of other apps.

 

And to remember the habitual cycle on soft development: new features = bad performance.

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There should be a mix of both understanding of how software works internally but also not try to be restricted by it, otherwise the needs will not necessitate change.

Knowing the wants is just as important as finding out how best to accomplish it given the limitations and whether or not the limitations can be removed for that particular goal/milestone.


So in this case, if someone says Zbrush in regards to masking... (and its not just zbrush its a handful of applications, including blender) that paint temporary masks on a surface. If someone says Substance Painter or Photoshop, they are referring to an example in which layers (vector or rasterized) have masking layers attached or the ability to attach sub layers for specific modifiers.

If we didnt give use cases that can be found in other software (easily found and observed in action) then it would be harder to convey the desired effect much less where most current software come from. Each design generally pulls from previous designs... that layer stack in 3d Coat with its new, duplicate, delete, move up and down row... that behavior is photoshop. Just like Blender's modifier stack pulls from 3DS Max. It would be bad feedback to avoid mentioning any software in which usage is observed and tested to work. When you try to keep reinventing the wheel, you will more often than not make the software either worse or less accessible.

Its all about objectivity and critical thought, not sentiment.

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Ask to make 3DC a Substance clone or Zbrush clone is not the way -from my point of view- to take.

 

All suggestion are welcome, but some solution are copy and paste of another developments.

 

The community need to found a creative way to understand how 3DC internally works, and how can be enhanced. Not asking to make a copy/paste of other apps.

 

And to remember the habitual cycle on soft development: new features = bad performance.

Agreed. What really bothers me is the incessant barrage of new feature requests, when we have a MOUNTAIN of features that have been asked for....heavily supported by many long-time members/users here....and patiently waited on for years, and yet they continue to get buried by the weight of all the new requests "Andrew, please do this....because Substance Painter does it!"

 

They might very well be a solid request, but they should also take a number and wait in line, like the rest. Rather than insist that it's an urgent must have, just because it's not quite as convenient to do in 3D Coat as it is in PS or SP. Layer Masks are a great example of this. There are glaring PERFORMANCE issues that have long gone unattended, and are bad enough to turn new users off....period.

 

Slow hide/unhide of layers. Sliders that are as slow as frozen molasses. 3D Coat still struggles with large brush radius'....especially if one has to paint on an 8k map or larger. These issues in 3D Coat simply preclude it from being used in production on films. If it weren't so, it would be a great tool for that market, too. But the PERFORMANCE simply prohibits it. Even for game models, the sliders are just excruciatingly slow. The Tweak room is like a hobbled, crippled appendage, just hanging off the side...without much use, because it hasn't seen any attention since 3D Coat was first developed

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BETA9

- Longstanding problem with crashes in UV room/auomapping solved.

-PMR materials gizmo moves correctly in all mapping modes, hovering preview rectangle with gizmo will not hide material preview.

- Mapping in PBR materials correctly treated - no more locked to mappint that set in material settings. Preview in rectangle corresponds to mapping type in the top bar.

- Different preview introduced for planar/uv mapping of PBR materials.

- restored edit projection

  • Like 3

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@AbnRanger,

 

You are exactly right in your idea of what is a priority. Usability, stability, performance, these should be some of the most important areas of development...and for obvious reasons. There's nothing wrong with wanting more features of course, though often times they are asked based on assumption improvement or need...they should still be mentioned of course but some things are either not as great as they sound or just not as important as some other areas of improvement. Fill layers are a minor convenience in Painter.. in a way, 3DC already has them by importing existing maps... which is part of the need Painter fills. If you want to import a diffuse map for example, in painter you do so via the fill layer. Its just a universal application of one or more channels. Masking and sublayers with modifiers have a far more immediate usage...   Anyways, you are entirely right on pushing for fixes over most new features, though there are exceptions obviously...and few buy updates for fixes sadly.

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Andrew,is Voronoi noise planned for PBR texture module in the future?,I think it would be very complementary to current Perlin....

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Reporters are not allowed to delete issues!

If you want to delete an issue follow this steps please:

 

1. Set the issue to feedback

2. Write your wish to delete the issue

2. Assign the issue to one of the following admins. They can delete the issue as soon as possible:

  • carlosa Carlo San
  • Taros
  • daniel
  • Psmith
  • philnolan3d
  • geothefaust
  • artman

 

Thank you

Chris

  • Like 1

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Reporters are not allowed to delete issues!

If you want to delete an issue follow this steps please:

 

1. Set the issue to feedback

2. Write your wish to delete the issue

2. Assign the issue to one of the following admins. They can delete the issue as soon as possible:

  • carlosa Carlo San
  • Taros
  • daniel
  • Psmith
  • philnolan3d
  • geothefaust
  • artman

 

Thank you

Chris

euh...Im not an admin .....

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I believe you are on Mantis.

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Andrew, looks like the Cut & Clone and Clone tools are not working in the Sculpt Room. They are not copying/cloning any of the geometry, and once the operation is "completed", it goes to the top-most object in the VoxTree without doing anything noticeable. For troubleshooting: The object is in surface mode.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

EDIT: Symmetry mode needs to be turned on. Otherwise it works. So, they are broken with symmetry mode on.

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I believe you are on Mantis.

Nope. Im a "reporter" I can't delete anything. Anyway,I barely go there...Im too lazy.

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Artman was right.

Then I must misunderstand how it works, because I can't see how I can do what I described.

Try this:

-make a new layer, paste an image of a bolt on it.

-add another new layer, set it to overlay, paint a colour onto it.

-Clip the overlay layer with the bolt layer so it doesn't go outside of the bolt's boundaries.

-Now add another mask to the overlay layer, to add texture to it non-destructively.

 

Ofcourse I understand it's a seperate image that masks the layer, I'm not new to cg. Nevertheless, the practicality of this system is bad, and there's a good example right under our noses.

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Beta9

its me, or Sliders in the Paint Room now have far better response ?

Try please:

 

-Texture > adjust

- Switch any preview on /off

 

 

NOTE:

Andrew said: Pilgway and Allegorithmic were talking about Substance implementation inside 3DC last year, but still conversation is open. 

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BETA9

- Longstanding problem with crashes in UV room/auomapping solved.

-PMR materials gizmo moves correctly in all mapping modes, hovering preview rectangle with gizmo will not hide material preview.

- Mapping in PBR materials correctly treated - no more locked to mappint that set in material settings. Preview in rectangle corresponds to mapping type in the top bar.

- Different preview introduced for planar/uv mapping of PBR materials.

- restored edit projection

Thank you, the obj file import with missing faces and incorrect unwrapping is now fixed... :D

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Did that alternative preview only work if i use Cube-mapping (ball) or UV-mapping (plane) in the material itself?

Is it not possible to set a cube-mapping material with UV-mapping preview?

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