Advanced Member Tser Posted October 26, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 I've recently experienced similar result Tser. I reported it, but then it wasn't happening. Then, it happens again. I can't nail down why. So if you have a great example scene to send Andrew, please definitely do. I, and I'm sure you, want this bug fixed asap. It makes painting completely unusable when it happens. I can paint with colour and depth with the resultant scene, that is not the problem, its the baked down depth (displacement) from the hi quality sculpt in the voxel room which I cannot get to displace my low poly, retopo, uved mesh with high enough resolution using merge to scene MV. I will have to try again with another scene, but I wasted a full day on that scene trying to get this to work and cannot spare any more for a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 I see, I've experienced just trying to simply export the depth and colour channels, and have the depth come out completely haywire or simple all grey. I was assuming it might be related. I also had to switch part of a major project, coming down to the wire on the deadline, because of this bug in 3DC. I think a real good look through of the paint room in 3DC is in order. I know folks love to sculpt (I do too!) but the paint room is feeling a little neglected to me, bug wise. Feature wise, I think it is great! Though it could stand to have some symmetrical painting with vertex colour maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 I can paint with colour and depth with the resultant scene, that is not the problem, its the baked down depth (displacement) from the hi quality sculpt in the voxel room which I cannot get to displace my low poly, retopo, uved mesh with high enough resolution using merge to scene MV. I will have to try again with another scene, but I wasted a full day on that scene trying to get this to work and cannot spare any more for a few days. I just re-read your post, regarding MV. Almost glossed over it that little, but very important detail. I should make a sticky, or actually, the MV should be put as a beta feature, or something similar, where it is only accessible by ticking a box in the options panel. Don't use the MV method. It is buggy as heck, and is now inferior to the PPP method, even for generating displacement maps. Andrew told me when I hit this bug to use PPP and not MV. That was the source of my problem, as well. I was using MV, and this didn't happen with PPP for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tser Posted October 26, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 Yep Javis, I love the 3DCoat approach to sculpting, retopo and UVing and with the new retopo method I am very happy with, but I don't like the methods of getting the displacements on the retopo mesh out, it seems contra to the ease of use of the rest of the program, I see where you are coming from with the paint room, it could do with a little love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tser Posted October 26, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 I just re-read your post, regarding MV. Almost glossed over it that little, but very important detail. I should make a sticky, or actually, the MV should be put as a beta feature, or something similar, where it is only accessible by ticking a box in the options panel. Don't use the MV method. It is buggy as heck, and is now inferior to the PPP method, even for generating displacement maps. Andrew told me when I hit this bug to use PPP and not MV. That was the source of my problem, as well. I was using MV, and this didn't happen with PPP for what it's worth. Well that could explain it, I will have to retry when I get some time, thanks Javis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) My pleasure, and thank you for confirming this bug. I really thought I was going crazy after I couldn't reproduce it when it was time to show it to Andrew. Sorry it is happening to you too. Let us know how it goes with PPP, it should give better results. As for the paint room gett some love soon, I'm sure it'll be in the queue after Andrew finishes up a few other things (auto remeshing for one). Looking foward to it, too! Edited October 26, 2013 by Javis could was to be couldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted October 26, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) My pleasure, and thank you for confirming this bug. I really thought I was going crazy after I couldn't reproduce it when it was time to show it to Andrew. Sorry it is happening to you too. Let us know how it goes with PPP, it should give better results. As for the paint room gett some love soon, I'm sure it'll be in the queue after Andrew finishes up a few other things (auto remeshing for one). Looking foward to it, too! I sometimes get weird looking normal maps/displacement maps using the merge for normal map with a displacement map. The pop up even saids you might get errors for deep displacement... I get little squares all over the surface of the model without any real deep displacement. So if MV is buggy and Normal map with displacement is buggy then I do hope Andrew can address the issues soon as they cause your workflows to cease to function... I will try and find some time to put in a bug report... Linux 64 bit non-cuda 4.0.08 beta... It's baking a faint normal/displacement map image of the retopo mesh into the model Edited October 26, 2013 by digman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted October 26, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) Posted Mantis bug report "0001291" I think there is a bug somewhere in baking for displacement maps in general, effecting both merging for PPP with displacement and at times to a lesser degree causing problems with regular MV displacements maps as well. Edited October 26, 2013 by digman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted October 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) Is there a way to fix/keep the little windows? I am mostly not quick enough to reach one of the options (default, malo) and the window get closed. In other areas it worked fine, if they get created direclty on the side. Edited October 26, 2013 by Malo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted October 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 What is the problem with MV displacment? wireframe Result with displacement (artifacts around the eyes are perfectly normal as I used a very quick autopo for testing purpose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted October 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 Any news on 4.0.09 release date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted October 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 Is there a way to fix/keep the little windows? window1.jpg I am mostly not quick enough to reach one of the options (default, malo) and the window get closed. In other areas it worked fine, if they get created direclty on the side. Andrew needs to adress this, I know the submenu is created to be always on screen, but it needs to be aligned to the origin parent menu at least, otherwise the parent menu disappear (no mouse hovering to keep it alive) and the user doesn't have the time to activate the submenu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 A way to fix/keep the little windows? http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1292 ----- same with woxtree RMB works fine IF voxtree windows is placed in Left side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tser Posted October 26, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 What is the problem with MV displacment? wireframe Untitled-1.jpg hjghj1.jpg Result with displacement (artifacts around the eyes are perfectly normal as I used a very quick autopo for testing purpose) Untitled-2.jpg The problem is that you have to use a high resolution retopo mesh, if you use a low resolution retopo mesh then it doesn't work too well, your example uses a high resolution retopo mesh, try a mesh of around 5k or so, this is what I said earlier, if I subdivided my retopo mesh then it worked fine, but the purpose of the whole exercise is to use a low resolution retopo mesh and have a displacement map to define the high resolution details of you original sculpt in an application like Maya, Softimage etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted October 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 Thanks for the report carlosan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted October 26, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) What is the problem with MV displacment? Result with displacement (artifacts around the eyes are perfectly normal as I used a very quick autopo for testing purpose) I and Tser are using the Linux version which could mean it's related only to the Linux 3DCoat version and my bug report was on merging for PPP with a displacement map anyway. I do think there could be some related issues with displacement baking in general. That would be for Andrew to figure out or not... Now, when merging for MV by default 3DC wants to subdivide the carcass mesh so you can have more polygons to sculpt on. This is a leftover from the old days before voxel sculpting. 3DC was limited to only 750,000 true polygons back then. You wanted to have as many true polygons as possible for true polygon sculpting... This now is no longer the case as we bake from the voxel / surface mesh. Now if you wanted to do more sculpting in MV mode in the paint room today, then yes I would subdivide as in MV mode you are really displacing the true polygons of the mesh object in the paint room. It is not just normal map depth painting as in PPP. The reason for the texture baking tool in the paintroom was originally for when you made certain changes to your mesh in MV mode things would not work out so well. The texture baking tool solved those problems. You have to remember though that you have changed the true polygons of the of the low polygon mesh. You can still export the low polygon version and the displacement map will be created correctly in most cases. You have to remember though that you changed the true polygons of the of the low polygon mesh. Now having said all the above today it would be better just to make changes to the voxel mesh and rebake... I think the whole MV displacement baking might need a complete revamp to get rid of 3DCoat version 2 stuff and modernize it for version 4 but of course that is my opinion. Does MV today need the retopo mesh subdivided when baking a high resolution voxel object. Andrew has not stated so or at least I do not remember him saying it. You know all this Artman, just placing it here for others... Edited October 26, 2013 by digman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javis Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 What is the problem with MV displacment? wireframe Untitled-1.jpg hjghj1.jpg Result with displacement (artifacts around the eyes are perfectly normal as I used a very quick autopo for testing purpose) Untitled-2.jpg Looks good. In some cases it just doesn't export out the displacement map correctly, it will be entirely grey. This isn't for baking, for me. I can't speak for others. It is when I import a mesh to paint colour and displacement. Other times the UV distortion is really bad and doesn't match the UVs exactly as it did in the 3DC viewport. Both of these are hard to reproduce every time. It will happen one day, and not happen the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted October 26, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 The problem is that you have to use a high resolution retopo mesh, if you use a low resolution retopo mesh then it doesn't work too well, your example uses a high resolution retopo mesh, try a mesh of around 5k or so, this is what I said earlier, if I subdivided my retopo mesh then it worked fine, but the purpose of the whole exercise is to use a low resolution retopo mesh and have a displacement map to define the high resolution details of you original sculpt in an application like Maya, Softimage etc. actually the mesh is around 5k in retopo room,what you see is image in paint room of merged model. I use subdivided carcass mesh to the equivalent of the subdivision I'll be using in in 3ds max or mudbox; I exported the lowpoly in max and mudbox ,subdivided it there then used my 3DCoat 32 displacement maps to perfect result. It is standard procedure here,displacement require subdivision of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tser Posted October 27, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 actually the mesh is around 5k in retopo room,what you see is image in paint room of merged model. I use subdivided carcass mesh to the equivalent of the subdivision I'll be using in in 3ds max or mudbox; I exported the lowpoly in max and mudbox ,subdivided it there then used my 3DCoat 32 displacement maps to perfect result. It is standard procedure here,displacement require subdivision of course. Why would you export the lowpoly mesh from 3DC and then subdivide it in Max? wouldn't it be better just to export the subdivided mesh from 3DC? or are you talking about increasing the subdivision level in Max, Maya or SI for a smoother render, I generally increase the render level to 1 for all my meshes for rendering, that produces nice smooth meshes without being too heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted October 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Why would you export the lowpoly mesh from 3DC and then subdivide it in Max? wouldn't it be better just to export the subdivided mesh from 3DC? or are you talking about increasing the subdivision level in Max, Maya or SI for a smoother render, I generally increase the render level to 1 for all my meshes for rendering, that produces nice smooth meshes without being too heavy. in my workflow in max,I use subdivision at render time. also in Mudbox I need my subdivision levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted October 27, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) In Blender I use about 3 levels of subdivision or so depending up how low the polygon model is to be used for displacement and then I also add the displacement map as a bump map as well to enhance the details... More subdivisions give you better looking displacements... Edited October 27, 2013 by digman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tser Posted October 27, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 O.K. after a few hours of trial and error I got some fairly good results using a low poly retopo mesh (5k triangles). Using the Baking settings of "Scan inside/outside the object" set to 1.2, using the "Snap to outer surface" method and adding a few zones with their depth set to 2.0 over areas which were not captured, (BTW a mirror support would help a lot with adding zones to a symmetrical mesh). I then used "Merge into scene (microverts)" and selected the lowest Carcass resolution with 20 million for the hi rez map. I had to do quite a bit of smoothing though and the exported displacement map didn't hold all the details as what was in the view port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted October 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 O.K. after a few hours of trial and error I got some fairly good results using a low poly retopo mesh (5k triangles). Using the Baking settings of "Scan inside/outside the object" set to 1.2, using the "Snap to outer surface" method and adding a few zones with their depth set to 2.0 over areas which were not captured, (BTW a mirror support would help a lot with adding zones to a symmetrical mesh). I then used "Merge into scene (microverts)" and selected the lowest Carcass resolution with 20 million for the hi rez map. I had to do quite a bit of smoothing though and the exported displacement map didn't hold all the details as what was in the view port. 4096 sized map can only hold details for approx 16.7 million polys... also I would maybe use higher carcass mesh to help out the projection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member Tser Posted October 27, 2013 Advanced Member Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 4096 sized map can only hold details for approx 16.7 million polys... also I would maybe use higher carcass mesh to help out the projection. It seems that the culprit is my UV map, The area where I am getting problems on the mesh is rather reduced on the UV map, so I think I will have to take better care of my UV real-estate, it appears that if you don't have a large enough UV area, when the displacement map is created, you will get a transparent area with floating checkered pattern there instead of a map and no matter what you do you cannot fix this unless you give that area more UV space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted October 27, 2013 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) I think there still might be a few bugs lingering about.... Sometimes when merging for MV in a scene you can choose the lowest subdivision level for the retopo mesh and other scenes you cannot but only choose starting from one subdivision level. Noticed in the picture on the left is the low polygon retopo mesh merged for MV without the without the displacement map showing. This is very close to the other problem I posted a bug report on. The right picture shows the same base mesh without the normal map showing merged for PPP mode... Both base meshes should look the same but do not. Now if I choose a higher subdivision level for merging using MV the low polygon mesh will appear correctly when I select show low-polygon mesh under the view menu. The question is should even 3DCoat allow you do select the lowest subdivision level for merging for MV at all and is that a bug when it does. Normally you want to subdivide the mesh to get better projection because your going to subdivide the model when using the displacement map in your rendering program. But what about Merging for PPP (normal map) plus displacement... In a lot of cases you do not want to subdivide the model... That is where my bug report comes into play because no subdivision creates that funky looking mesh as shown a few post above and in my bug report. Even if you subdivide the retopo mesh when merging for PPP plus displacement in this case the squares only get smaller. It is something that I think Andrew would like to take a look at... Retopo mesh not made for quality but just to show the problems... Linux version 64 bit non-cuda 4.0.08 beta Edited October 27, 2013 by digman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted October 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Updated to 4.0.09 (Win, beta) Changes: - Quadrangulation tweaked to get better capturing of narrow details and better quality in average - Several critical bugs from Mantis fixed - especially vertex painting with symmetry, see list there - http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view_all_bug_page.php - script can be called from command line - PSD files may be exported from File->Export dialog as one of textures type. Also if obj/lwo/fbx files refer PSD file, it will be imported correctly as well. It is especially important for AppLinks. - VoxLayer got Round profile for edge as option. Mac&Linux builds will be done soon as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor BeatKitano Posted October 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Perfect Timing for the vertex painting sym issue Downloading right now ! [Edit] Works fine now, tnx a bunch, it's gonna help a lot, it may not have been a lot of work (I don't know) but this makes a lot of difference in working speed. Being able to switch between sculpt and paint to make everything almost final in an iterative process is priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted October 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Oh yeah! Thanks Andrew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted October 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 For those interested,here is result of 3dcoat displacement map on lowpoly in mudbox. Artefacts around eyes and elsewhere are normal,they are the same I got in paint room as I used a very quick rough autopo and did not use scanning zones at all.But all fine details got captured by the map,which is only 2048. I used 32bit tiff,zero level is black not normalised ,smoothed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor artman Posted October 27, 2013 Contributor Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 ok,a little report on 4.0.09 autopo....I'm getting much better results without any guides than in 7.0.08 without any guides. But guides are very difficult to use,even if I follow Andrew's instructions 1 or 2 additional curve can turn the whole mesh into mess. Its very difficult to know what guides are gonna turn the mesh into mess,this needs to be stabilised so it can be more predictable or at least...understandable. But capture without guides feels very very strong compared to previous build. Edit:autopo still refuse to capture horn tip tough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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