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polyxo
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Yeah, we now again run into the danger of just piling up what single users consider the most practical UI features of other programs.

Certainly one has to look at good solutions found in other programs - but a hundred single peas still don't make a soup.

And imo too many cooks will spoil the soup even with the most delicious ingredients.

There will always be someone who wants more salt or some leaves of salvia... and others who protest.

A single person could probably come up with something far more convincing by sitting down a couple of weeks.

Ideally this would be a seasoned graphic designer with strong analytic skills and at least a basic understanding

of programing.

Agree.

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Yeah, we now again run into the danger of just piling up what single users consider the most practical UI features of other programs.

Certainly one has to look at good solutions found in other programs - but a hundred single peas still don't make a soup.

And imo too many cooks will spoil the soup even with the most delicious ingredients.

There will always be someone who wants more salt or some leaves of salvia... and others who protest.

A single person could probably come up with something far more convincing by sitting down a couple of weeks.

Ideally this would be a seasoned graphic designer with strong analytic skills and at least a basic understanding

of programing.

Agree.

Or actually not just a graphics designer. A good, seasoned UI developer who in the most ideal situation is at home in the market that your software is for (i.e. digital sculpting). Big difference between the two. I dont give a rats ass wether my button has a bevel, wether its shiney and or transparant and wether its colored or grey. Almost every ui in existence today has options to change color, font and button appearance.

What is important is placement of the main ui elements in relation to workflow.

As people have suggested in the other thread you should, eventhough it sounds lame, look very closely to an application like mudbox.

Yes the interface may be boring. But it works. Its fast. Everyone just jumps in and starts sculpting. Combine such an (basic; some might even say uninspired) interface with the ability to change the existing layout (important!) and the ability to add hotbars/tab/menus/buttons on your own and your on your way to a good first version of a usable ui.

GrtZ

JW

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2. Icons don't need as much room in your GUI as words.

I disagree. See my mock up attached. The text buttons are the same size as LightWave's. If need be the text could even be made a little bigger to read it easier and it would still be far smaller than the icon buttons. The icon buttons could be made smaller, but IMO that would make them harder to read.

post-466-1235592364_thumb.jpg

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I'm much too lazy to make a mock-up. But let's say my suggestion is a custom radial menu that you call up with custom hotkeys.

You know, so first you would need to make a custom radial menu editor. Where you drag and drop buttons into a radial menu that automatically scales and populates itself depending on how many items are present. And then you set which hotkey calls that radial menu up. The user could make as many as they wanted for special tasks like one for voxels, one for painting etc, one for materials or any combination in between.

Just a simple circular radial dial that appears at your mouse cursor :lol:

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I'm much too lazy to make a mock-up. But let's say my suggestion is a custom radial menu that you call up with custom hotkeys.

You know, so first you would need to make a custom radial menu editor. Where you drag and drop buttons into a radial menu that automatically scales and populates itself depending on how many items are present. And then you set which hotkey calls that radial menu up. The user could make as many as they wanted for special tasks like one for voxels, one for painting etc, one for materials or any combination in between.

Just a simple circular radial dial that appears at your mouse cursor :lol:

I like this idea a lot...It does not solve the problem of Initial UI but it is this kind of customisation control I'm looking for as a user.

(+ allowing hotkey assignation on all functions of repetitive usage)

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I spent a little time and put together a quick idea. I like dockable palettes but if there is no way of minimizing a palette in a dock or scrolling through the dock, it can get cramped. Even with tabs it can get a little hard to find a certain palette. At least this is how i feel a little when i use silo. I do like silo's interface alot though, especially with the ability to add buttons directly on screen and categorize them in pages.

post-631-1235613823_thumb.jpg

The image shows scrollable docks on all edges (image missing bottom dock) and everything is a palette that can be minimized in and out of the dock. there are three tabs on screen that control the three main "master" layouts. each "master" layout can have multiple "sub" layouts of palettes. (maybe have layouts for beginner, intermediate, advanced) Menu's can be converted to palettes with the rest. Also palettes can have a vertical or horizontal layout. Docks can be collapsed and expanded to the edge with hotkeys assigned to each.

I also like the context sensitive custom radial menu.

Anyway, I just wanted to get some ideas out.

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I spent a little time and put together a quick idea. I like dockable palettes but if there is no way of minimizing a palette in a dock or scrolling through the dock, it can get cramped. Even with tabs it can get a little hard to find a certain palette. At least this is how i feel a little when i use silo. I do like silo's interface alot though, especially with the ability to add buttons directly on screen and categorize them in pages.

post-631-1235613823_thumb.jpg

The image shows scrollable docks on all edges (image missing bottom dock) and everything is a palette that can be minimized in and out of the dock. there are three tabs on screen that control the three main "master" layouts. each "master" layout can have multiple "sub" layouts of palettes. (maybe have layouts for beginner, intermediate, advanced) Menu's can be converted to palettes with the rest. Also palettes can have a vertical or horizontal layout. Docks can be collapsed and expanded to the edge with hotkeys assigned to each.

I also like the context sensitive custom radial menu.

Anyway, I just wanted to get some ideas out.

Looks very nice!

I especially like the buttons Sculpt, Retopo and Paint. They help to highlight the key stages (and features) of 3D Coat.

I love the puppy too!

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nice job, 3DArtist. :)

Additional seperate 'modes' for UVs (Andrew has talked of enhancing the capabilities to a greater level

of control than currently possible) as well as 2D (for painting directly on all of the 2D texture maps---

Diffuse, Normal, Specular, Glow, Shaded) might be other options folks might want to have as main tabbed

buttons.

To be honest, I haven't found the current interface to be a burden *yet*, but the voxel side of things definitely

needs some coherence with tools and vox-tree arrangement. It looks like your mock-up lacks a 'tools' section, which

should probably be mode-specific. I'd also want to work with a (toggle-able) palette 'on' that had all of the current

adjustment options to the tools available (although I can see how some folks might want to work without one always

visible). I think having dockable palettes with the ability for the user to set them top, left, right, or bottom (or all 'off'

or all 'on') would offer the most chances of making everybody 'happy', since they could choose to put whatever they

wanted wherever they wanted it. :lol:

my .02

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My current concept of future interface is (under impression of all posts):

1) Several rooms (via tabs on the top): paint/uv/sculpt/retopo/voxels

2) Every room has set of textual buttons on the left site in one column

3) Every button (mode) has floating/dockable panel with list of options (like every mode in VS has)

(1,2 - looks approx like in LW)

There is two separate dockable/tabbed windows for pens - pens alpha list and current pen options.

One dockable/tabbed window per masks/strips/materials/palette/picker window.

Dockable/tabbed means that every window can be docked or joined with some window so that new tab will appear.

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Andrew,

perhaps offer the ability to drag/relocate the text buttons column to the user's 'side' that they

prefer?

I know in Photoshop, I like to drag the toolbar to the far right so I can have all tools on 1 side.

In Silo, I split them left and right (and work in the middle) mainly because they are too wide

(with all the text/info) to have them side-by-side...that and the fact that you can't set Silo's

panels side-by-side.

Anyhow, my point is that the option to re-align all 'palettes' or panels based upon preference

would seem to be a better option to suit any user's working habits...rather than mandating to

1 side like we currently have. I'd think most people are used to having a topbar, but all the

rest (left, right, bottom, floating) seems to be preference-based. <shrugs>

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nice one 3Dartist, alot of stuff which is currently on screen has been left out though, Im not sure how that would work

I just thought what would 3Dcoat be like if it conformed a bit more to standard design principles employed in apps such as photoshop and mudbox.

So this is what I came up with for when people first enter 3D coat and are taken to voxel sculpting mode

the voxel tools are broken up into tabs by their purpose in the voxel tools menu bottom left.

so you just select a tool from the voxel tools bottom left then the properties/features of that tool are displayed below the layers palette on the right.

post-1189-1235643555_thumb.jpg

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This is another concept for 3D-Coat interface.This is only a rough concept and many elements would need more work.

*Note about left tab panel.This panel will dock further right when closed. Similar to the closed left panel.

*Note on material editor.The material types are not displayed as the actual materials are listed.This is just a concept.

*Images are 1280x1024.If you save them and open them in your image editor in full screen you will get a better idea of how it would look.

*Images show different windows open when performing various actions.

Objectives:

-Create an interface for 3D-Coat that is both functional and beautiful.

-Arrange tools in a categorical order for easy access and functionality.

-Utilize all four edges of screen for maximum tool accessibility

Features:

-Tabbed interface.Tabs can be pulled off and rearranged to the users needs.Tabs can be minimized.

-Separate rooms for modeling and textures.

-Paint tools are arranged in lower tabbed shelf that can be minimized.

-All tabs can be minimized for maximum working screen space.

Considerations:

-Certain tools will maintain there right click functionality so no need for more rooms or separate tabs.

-Certain functions will have pop-up windows like they are presently.

-Fully customizable interface allows users to arrange individual pallets as they choose.The key here is flexibility for the user.

-Tabs could be added to upper screen if needed

-Other options such as 3d button style and gradient menus will remain.

-Icons could be redesigned and color may be added.

This is just one of many possible configurations for a 3D-Coat interface, so just use this concept as one of many possibilities.Maybe you like some of the elements or none at all.Just some food for thought.

post-913-1235665588_thumb.png

post-913-1235665624_thumb.png

post-913-1235665644_thumb.png

post-913-1235665656_thumb.png

post-913-1235665665_thumb.png

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Sorry to spoil the party but I believe at that point it's time for a sheet of paper or maybe a mind-mapping program but not yet for Photoshop and the like!

I don't want to sound harsh - but what got visible as yet is little more than pushing around existing items and using some lipstick here and there.

Please understand the following list only as an inspiration - in fact it is a very primitive stub - but I have not much time to spare.

Currently we have items inside of 3DC which:

  • work globally (regardless of what we are currently doing)
  • are shared in several workmodes
  • are specific to just a single Workmode

Global Application Controls should be available in each "room":

These have to appear consistantly, without getting in the way regardless of the presently

active workmode. If there is a main menu, these entries should appear here.

This "top layer" should also "declare" how things work:

Input media conventions, dealining with toolbars and editors, Cursors.

Do windows overlap or is there a common framework? What controls are modal?

As soon as the user has understood these he/she should also feel at home when drilling

deeper into the application.

Samples of these global controls:

File operations: Open/Save of current project etc.

Viewport Layout Controls: Single view/quad viewport etc, saving and recalling of views

Camera navigation

Object Visibility controls (global Shade-modes, Hiding, Locking per object)

Symmetry Options

Grid Options

Object translations (Move/Rotate/Scale)

Transform widgets

Object duplication and deleting

Maybe Masking (in UV or Retopo this might get used to pin down vertices? - not sure here)

Program configuration

Imo we should be able to hide and show items regardless of what we are presently doing

and also to keep track of this. Would that be an Editor which tells us that? It currently

doesn't exist. Quite in general editors needed a lot of refinement...

Their appearance and behaviour should get streamlined and should show "expected" behaviour.

The way the Layer editor works currently is overly complex -it has hidden options - can be

expanded here and there options - all over the place! Further more there are also other

unique Layer options inside the "Layer" Main Menu entry.

What is stored in object stacks alone is worth quite a bit of thinking...

The Layer editor stores both colour and displacement information does not allow to make the entire object invisible.

The Voxel Tree is more of an object stack, holds every object and steers its visibilty but it skips imported non voxelized

mesh geometry. Further on it is a kind of boolean operation editor - offers geometric blend modes if you will.

All this functionality is great - but a clean up really made sense...

If an object can not appear inside a certain viewmode yet (say because

the respective item has not yet been converted to polygons we should get a Note about that.

Currently new users will be surprised when switching from Voxel to Paint mode and see their

model disappear...

Controls which are shared some but not in all workmodes:

These should if possible share the same locations inside toolboxes and work similarly.

When an operation looks and feels quite similar but is in fact different from another cursors should

be cursors should be slightly different (example: Voxel vs Poly-Sculpting)

Workmode specific display-modes/shaders: These should be found in the place where global

shademodes are situated and not have individual placements.

etc...

single workmode specific controls/tools:

If they appear in the MainMenu their entries should be greyed out in case another workmode is active.

Workmode specific display-modes/shaders: These should be found in the place where global shademodes

are situated and not have individual placements.

This list could greatly get extended and refined - but I have to run now.

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I agree with alot of what you are saying polyxo but I dont think its useless to do photoshop interface paintovers/ movearounds as that lets the developers know a little more about what we would expect regardless of when the new UI is going to be implemented. These paintovers are meant merely as suggestions of what we would expect to be possible and I agree UI design is more complex than we have shown in our little paintovers but I believe that we all made valid points in our paintovers which the developers can consider when writing up the new ui layout and workflow.

you gave us a thousand words and we gave a picture....you know the saying. hehe

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I agree with polyxo with important note ... the group of global controls should be the biggest, or at least as big as possible.

In fact, in my opinion, there should be two centers of UI - Toolbox (that will look somehow) and Objects palette. "Objects" are are vox sculpts, polygon meshes, UV layouts (or even the polygon islands in UV layout), image layers in textures, sculpting layers ... generally, its all the same, some "lego" pieces together making the result.

Visually it could be similar as it is (with more informations abou visibility, locking, material, symmetry - i think it is a property of an object as well, etc.), it can look like Photohop layer palette or it can be nodal somehow, like in NakedLight (at the bottom; 2D, but 3D isn't very different) for example.

All together, objects palette is the non-creative part of 3DC an it can be treated like this.

Toolbox is the second part, more arguable, I think and I have nothing to say about it in this night hour :)

post-758-1235685933_thumb.jpg

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Personally I think photoshop imagery is exactly what we need to visualize the interface.I agree with GED, polyxo, that what we presented is a visual example of the possibilities of an interface.No offense but as an artist a picture IS worth a thousand words.Some valid points were made, but now I have to translate those words into images in my mind. :huh: This leaves a lot of empty space on the canvas.What I would like to see is a general blueprint for different concepts that could be employed in the overall look and functionality.Give me an image not lengthy sentences. :) Please don't take this personally.Like a child I just need a picture. :)

These concepts are just food for thought for Andrew so he has a base from which to start.He will ultimately decide what is right for 3D-coat since it is he who has the most time invested and the most to gain or lose from its design.Maybe he already has enough to work with.

JamesE, yes I've seen this before and it would be nice to have.Maybe it won't get in for this release, but it's good for Andrew to have this as a reference.

Anyway I would like to see more designs submitted so Andrew can have more possible solutions when the time comes for the actual programming.

Also what about icon design?Anyone?

I'm really excited by the ultimate potential of this program, both in looks and most importantly as a tool for creativity.I think 3D-Coat is the best thing since the invention of the Chia pet!

post-913-1235687692_thumb.jpg

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Too bad we didn't have something like this for 3dcoat:

http://www.russellbrown.com/Transfer/Configurator.mov

I almost wonder if the effort to make this would be more worthwhile than leaving the entire UI issue up to andrew. =]

I was playing with Configurator the other day. I didn't actually save anything yet because I couldn't decide what kind of a panel I wanted. I liked it but I was upset that you couldn't make "click and hold" buttons like Photoshop's own toolbar has. I saw it on a recent episode of Pixel Perfect:

http://revision3.com/pixelperfect/stillmorecs4/

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Why not make everything as customizable as possible?

My reasoning is that a new user who may be a hobbyist or student might be operating on a gaming pc with one monitor and a mouse.

Every professional I know uses a similar setup to myself, dual monitors and a wacom.

After a short while of working with any software, I always find myself using a handful of features continually and rarely if ever touching

the other tools at my disposal. So after that period of initial learning why would anyone want ANY of the tools they never use on screen all the time?

It should be kept in mind that in a midscale to large studio environment you get a job as a modeler OR a texture artist.... not both. Even a tab to take you to a "texture room" on screen all the time is a waste of screen realestate.

My one really solid interface request would be to have camera orbiting similar to ZBrush (click drag anywhere in empty 3d space) rather than hunting down a button or having to have one hand on the keyboard at all times(you just need to orbit too often).

Just my 2 cents, thanks

Heath

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Being a fairly avid Modo user, one thing I appreciate about the UI is how modular it can be - tabs can be torn off and repositioned, when made smaller they reduce down to the essentials such as text labeled icons, then icons, then smaller icons even then. This is perfect for those of us who work on larger screens at our desk, and smaller ones on the go such as our laptops. A modular, collapsable, configurable interface is key IMO in keeping everyone satisfied, and frankly makes using the application that much more comfortable. Also (small gripe) but I believe floating hints that are a general staple of many windows applications would behave better than the current hint system that resides at the bottom of the screen. I unfortunately have to turn it off once I install a clean version of 3D Coat, as it annoys me that it pops up immediately whenever I highlight a new tool. These sort of small things can really help with the overall experience! Keep up the terrific work Andrew, things can only get better!

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