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Andrew Shpagin

V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

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i used

clean up memory never

 

first voxel mode for block modeling -never more than 1M-

- when the base model is ready to switch

1st step: to global space always

then  fill voids and close invisible hulls.

 

switch to sculpt mode and...

1st clean surface

 

this more or less preserve my workflow pretty well, but yes... new users cant get any idea about how models must be "build" to avoid any issues...

As I stated in my first post I never use clean up memory as well but these are features that are suppose to work and the workarounds we all know a new user would have to learn but they have jumped ship long before they learn them...  You are suppose to be able to switch from surface mode to voxel and back again without any problems. A new user would do that and experience these bugs.

 

Switching modes only revels the bug and is not the cause of it... All it means is that surface mode is broken is some areas. What if filling voids in voxel mode was buggy, what would we do? What workaround would we employ to keep sculpting?

 

Your method is close to mine but I go higher in voxel count.

 

Sculpt in voxels. (normal use)

Run fill voids and close invisible hulls ( normal use as you could have created some of these while voxel sculpting).

Switch to Surface mode and run Smooth All with tangent smoothing to prepare the mesh structure for surface mode sculpting. (normal use as the mesh retains it's voxel structure when first switching to surface mode).

 

The above can be taught to a new user as they would not know about filling voids, closing hulls or preparing the mesh for surface mode sculpting but buggy features and how to work around them is not what I am going to do... It takes time just explaining the ins and outs of 3DC without adding workarounds to the list. Like,,, "Oh by the way, that feature is broken and here is what you do and now Opps, I forgot this other feature you are about to use is broken too, here is what you do"... Bugs need to be squashed, these long standing tears and explosions need to stay dead, dead and more dead in all areas of surface mode whether LiveClay or Regular Surface Mode...

Edited by digman

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You can remove voids in surface mode by executing "Separate disconnected pieces". It will separate all not-connected surfaces to layers. Then you delete unneeded layers. Problem appears when it generated more than 50 layers ;) Then it can be time-consuming task.

Edited by Creator

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I'm honestly sorry this happens to other users, but in a way I'm also glad that I'm not the only one. So I know I'm not crazy.

 

After the problem with the first mesh and having to redo it, I followed those supposed ways to make sure the mesh is prepared right when going into surface mode. I still got holes. Nothing over 1 million polygons in volxels, or if so, I decimate after first running clean surface, smooth all when bringing into surface mode, etc. My main mesh, head and body, only had two holes after a lot of detailing, but even two after building up so much can be a dead stop. Zbrush runs its close holes features in a couple of seconds. 3D-Coat analyzes how many holes there are first, which takes on high poly models anywhere from 30 seconds to a couple of minutes. Then, once it knows how many there are, it takes the program another round of analyzing, or running zig-zag marches between vertices (no idea what is taking so long, really; I mean it knows where they are already, doesn't it?) up to sometimes 5-15 minutes, or more, to finally close the holes. That's if it doesn't crash, or lock up entirely.

 

You get to the point whee you want to sure up the topology to add micro details, too, and then the hole-fest can occur. The skin preset on the build brush seems to do a great job without depth to just even out and increase the surface topology ... until you analyze the mesh again and holes have magically occurred. Even if the holes aren't occurring, or not that much, the other issue is the explosion of the polygon count for me. A head of 1-3 million becomes 7, 10, finally 11 million, just to add in manually some surface noise, creases and cracks. A base mesh from 130,000 worked on to the point of adding in details at something like 5 million, wound up for me 33 million polygons, and with all accessories fully detailed, I'm looking at a model that's over 100 million. Something's wrong there, and you can't decimate and retain the crispness. Even trying at just 20% decimation is a noticeable difference, so forget 75-80% that it says it can do...

 

Anyway, I do hope it gets resolved.

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I start in Surface Mode and if I encounter explosions or holes, I'll undo, convert to Voxel Mode, upres, smooth and then switch back to surface. Most of the time this will work to clean up mesh problems. Checking your mesh in wireframe mode will also show small inner spiking or holes developing.

 

At this stage in 3DC's development, these issues should have been ironed out already. If Andrew can't figure out a way to prevent this corruption in the first place, maybe he can implement a "Fix Mesh" command that would check for corruption and then correct the mesh.  A potential buyer looking to choose between ZBrush and 3DC will immediately be turned off by this problem.  

Edited by SilverCity
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I think some of it is because Raul has only had short stints in Kiev, and living in Cuba, it's nearly impossible to work remotely, as they have practically no broadband internet. Nevertheless, new features are going to have to take a back seat to getting this issue fixed.

 

I find that as long as I do most of my boolean type operations in Voxel mode, before switching to Surface mode to do the high detail work, and work on an optimized mesh (Smooth All > Tangent Smooth  3-5 levels) then, I don't notice any issues with exploding meshes and such. I might find a hole once in a while, but Close Holes or using the Reconstruct tool cleans it up

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I understand the frustration one can have with exploding meshes in 3D Coat, but it would be fair to say that zbrush once had it's fair share of exploding meshes as well if it still doesnt. It may be a more reliable app at this time due to popularity and revenue, but we are really talking about 2 different technologies as well. I am not a programmer but I think 3D coat is a more complex beast under the hood. And with the limited support that it has I think we'll just have to be patient and use our workarounds for now. 

 

I would love to be able to reproduce that issue as well, but I happens when it happens and I don't know why. Good solutions though from abnranger and digman. These have seemed to resolve all of them for me. 

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I think some of it is because Raul has only had short stints in Kiev, and living in Cuba, it's nearly impossible to work remotely, as they have practically no broadband internet. Nevertheless, new features are going to have to take a back seat to getting this issue fixed.

 

I find that as long as I do most of my boolean type operations in Voxel mode, before switching to Surface mode to do the high detail work, and work on an optimized mesh (Smooth All > Tangent Smooth  3-5 levels) then, I don't notice any issues with exploding meshes and such. I might find a hole once in a while, but Close Holes or using the Reconstruct tool cleans it up

 

That would be ok IF voxels weren't plagued with the same kind of issues: sticking artefacts. Those long tubes that connect parts when using symmetry, the kind random extrusion that happens in surface mode, only this time it's plain voxel grid getting extruded. This is making voxel mode unusable for me.

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That would be ok IF voxels weren't plagued with the same kind of issues: sticking artefacts. Those long tubes that connect parts when using symmetry, the kind random extrusion that happens in surface mode, only this time it's plain voxel grid getting extruded. This is making voxel mode unusable for me.

I just had some long spikes/explosions in Surface mode, and it seemed somewhat related to working near/on the symmetry plane. I hit CTRL + Z to Undo and clicked on SMOOTH ALL > Tangent Smooth 3 levels > tried again, and no more explosions. So, at least, for the time being, I know how to steer around them for the most part..

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Last time I did that, undoing right after it actually removed significant parts of the mesh... There's no secret formula.

 

Sometimes you're lucky ,sometimes you're screwed... this has to go that's all. I know it's not easy but this HAS to go, workaround aren't going to make 3dcoat adopted industry-wide.

So far we have "fixing commands" where there actually should be bug fixes. Weld vertices aka "legacy fix" was a workaround it serves no purpose now.

 

Close hole in voxel menu is a workaround tool, holes shouldn't be there in the first place, we have a real tool for closing holes, the one Close Holes in voxel menu shuts down are BUGS.

We don't need workaround tools, we need bugfixes.

I would never stay with a doctor which only give me comfort drugs when he should be giving me treatment for the disease, I expect the same from pilgway, otherwise like the doctor: I would go see another one.

 

At least that's something as a new user I would do... and probably most of the new user do since this can happen at first contact and make them fly away...

 

Looking at the sculpting side, if this is not fixed, 3dc has no chance of being widely adopted by the industry, it'll only be used for other cases (retopo/uv/painting), but if you can't make this side of the software "SAFE" no one will bother jeopardizing a production even with the benefit of freeform sculpting. Time is super costly, much more than the cost of license of a few competitor products.

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Some internal routine like Auto Weld near vertices may be could help :huh:

 

Sculptris have a similar LC... but i never saw a hole working with those unlimited clay algorithms... 

--------------------------

Form Jan 2011 to now... the subdivision algorithm for Unlimited Clay need more refinements ?

http://farsthary.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/toward-sculptris-like-sculpting/

 

-----------------------------------

Relaxation algorithm for improving the topology of Unlimited Clay: it is still under development/research but I’m getting pretty nice results and the main advantage is that the method will converge to the correct topological solution from any equivalent starting mesh configuration … - Dec 2010

http://farsthary.wordpress.com/2010/12/31/smoothingrelaxation-battery-tests/

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The integration of LiveClay with Surface mode was started in August 2011 which now is over 2 years ago...

 

I normally do not express a lot of frustration but sometimes I will spend some of my frustration money when I think it will really do some good...

2 years of development and we still have mesh tears and explosions, this is not good at all!

 

Patient I am but as any user we all have our limits. I am approaching mine with these bugs... The bugs are damaging to 3DCoat as Surface / LC mode has become very powerful and becoming one of the most used parts of the application.  These bugs drive away new users and older users as well.

 

I am starting to see the beginnings in me to hesitate using 3DC, as one becomes more frustrated the less he wants to use a program. Generally I will put a piece of software on the shelf if It gets too frustrating to use and I do not want that to happen to my use of 3DC. I have enjoyed using the program since late 2007 and desire to continue but please fix these bugs and the other major ones at mantis...

 

My last post on this topic, enough from me was said...

Edited by digman

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Simple question the issues being discussed are they related to issues caused when utilizing Live Clay brushes?

Last week I road tested 3DC 4 for two full days of sculpting with no issues - from habit I avoid all Live Clay brushes.

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Im having very long sessions without any sort of issues (holes ect...)

But holes still happens (on my side)

When:

1)working on a surface that has not been tangently smoothed a little beforehand.

2)Along symmetry line after using symcopy (most easy to reproduce on my side)

3)using too harsh reduce brush

(does not mean these are the only way to get holes...its just the only way I get them ,even when working very longtime)

 

also and as pointed by Digman there seems to be issues created by undos...

 

So..Liveclay sculpting is 100% usable on my side but its still a little experimental for totally new users or people that require absolutle stability(ex:industry people,professional with deadlines ect...).

By 100% usable I mean i can get a sculpt form start to finish to Zb/MB detail standards. (I will show my first finished sculpt in few days...)

The reason I dont use zb/mudbox is because of subobject management is impossible for me to work in those apps (I need parenting) also I NEED individual symmetry planes for my objects....I could never work without that...

 

 

I barely use voxel mode so I dont know about remaining issues there.

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If I I spot a hole during high detail sculpting, it can easily be patched up with a Close Hole tool. If I get explosions or some other weirdness (like the infamous disappearing surface, which cannot be undone...), decimation by a few percent (optionally, followed by tangent smoothing) or Reconstruct tool (applied before the operation that causes the disappearance) almost always helps.

However, I agree that this kind of stuff shouldn't happen in the first place!

 

Funny thing is, that Close Holes in surface command when invoked on a layer in surface mode doesn't close holes that I can clearly see. ;)

 

Maybe Andrew should implement some kind of history that would store all operations performed by user as well as some crucial information on the state of every layer in the scene? Maybe this would help to determine what is causing these nasty holes, disappearances and explosions?

Edited by ajz3d

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I got sometimes an anoying problem/bug.

 

If i open a 3d coat file via double klick, or if i use the Applink from Blender, i always get some disortet windows in the paint room.

Like this.

 

Normal setup of my UI on the startup

post-24378-0-66655300-1385582213_thumb.j

Look as it should.

 

 

Now if i open a 3d coat file with doubleklick or Applink.

post-24378-0-26819800-1385582262_thumb.j

Now, some of my Windows are out of position.

 

How could i get rid of that problem?

I have always to recreate my UI or i have to load my Workspace file.

I use V4.08

Edited by Malo

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Another consequence of having to deal with this bug is that the creative workflow is seriously hampered when you have to constantly examine your mesh for holes and potential problems. 3D sculpting can be a real joyful experience if you're not worrying about whether or not your next brushstroke may suddenly explode your beautiful sculpt into a terrible mess. 

 

Even though there are workarounds and "fixes", correcting this issue should be a top priority. While Auto-topology and a better rendering engine is nice to have, a stable sculpting/painting environment is the foundation of this app. 

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Im having very long sessions without any sort of issues (holes ect...)

But holes still happens (on my side)

When:

1)working on a surface that has not been tangently smoothed a little beforehand.

2)Along symmetry line after using symcopy (most easy to reproduce on my side)

3)using too harsh reduce brush

(does not mean these are the only way to get holes...its just the only way I get them ,even when working very longtime)

 

also and as pointed by Digman there seems to be issues created by undos...

 

So..Liveclay sculpting is 100% usable on my side but its still a little experimental for totally new users or people that require absolutle stability(ex:industry people,professional with deadlines ect...).

By 100% usable I mean i can get a sculpt form start to finish to Zb/MB detail standards. (I will show my first finished sculpt in few days...)

The reason I dont use zb/mudbox is because of subobject management is impossible for me to work in those apps (I need parenting) also I NEED individual symmetry planes for my objects....I could never work without that...

 

 

I barely use voxel mode so I dont know about remaining issues there.

Thanks Artman , being a newcomer to v4 , the thought of issues throwing grit in my workflow karma scares me - even now knowing the potential pitfalls and range of fixes. Your advice is much appreciated and I shall heed your perspective on this matter.

 

If a friend recommended you have a date with a girl who was a little experimental for totally new users or people that require absolute stability - then step forward the thrill seekers or gluttons for punishment. I heed again your current appraisal and shall adjust accordingly.

 

I'd have to play with v4 more but from what I'm deducing here is "old skool is kool". This however merely based on the fact that none of these issues have arisen for me. Hardly a poll I know.So might it have something to do with getting down and funky with the more recent options which basically I don't utilize? It would be nice to have that confirmed. You guys are deeper users and push the polygon envelope which I do not. Coming from V3 it'll take me a little time to understand even the solutions/ fixes as these terms are totally new to me from v3 experience.

 

Afeared now am I of the hole monster and the exploding pox.

 

 

I dont use zb/mudbox is because of subobject management is impossible for me to work in those apps (I need parenting) also I NEED individual symmetry planes for my objects....I could never work without that...

Interesting points ,there are solutions for what you mention all be they not to your preference. This is the personal path we are all on i.e to find our own favored methods for seeking the path of least constipated flow. Sometimes a vision appears to me in the shape of a pencil.

 

My immediate appraisal is being delighted at the much improved brush responses overall when retrospectively compared to v3 as well as the other additions to workflow such as presets and the added features and functions within the e-panel . For the present it was these changes that stood out in my initial testing of V4 . I have for the most part stayed in V3 whilst watching the feedback and progress of v4. Having road tested the older brushes and comparative likenesses I am happy now to change over.

 

For the solutions and issues you guys are reporting back to Andrew - my debt of gratitude for blazing the trail whilst we others picnic on the hill.

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@ The Candy-floss kid...

 

Version 4 is well worth the upgrade and much improved over version 3.7

 

My statements were not intended to push anyone away from upgrading. Andrew and Raul about a year ago went on a big Surface mode / LiveClay bug hunt. They nearly wiped them out. There are a few nasty ones left. The reason for my first statement a few pages back was to inform Andrew and Raul, that I have been seeing more reports from new and old users about these tears and explosions though they be a lot rarer. I too can work for long periods because I know what to do and what do avoid. I was producing the tears and explosions on purpose to show that the bugs are still there, one does have to backup his statements plus I have made mantis reports.

 

This has been a good round of discussion, everyone said they still get the bugs though some users get them alot less because of their experience with 3DC. Forgive me for expressing some frustration and it is not a reflection on Andrew or Raul, I just want them squashed because Surface /LC is such an important part of 3DC now.

Edited by digman
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I got sometimes an anoying problem/bug.

 

If i open a 3d coat file via double klick, or if i use the Applink from Blender, i always get some disortet windows in the paint room.

Like this.

 

Normal setup of my UI on the startup

attachicon.gifprob1.jpg

Look as it should.

 

 

Now if i open a 3d coat file with doubleklick or Applink.

attachicon.gifprob2.jpg

Now, some of my Windows are out of position.

 

How could i get rid of that problem?

I have always to recreate my UI or i have to load my Workspace file.

I use V4.08

A longstanding bug... and really ugly. No idea.

 

-> http://3d-coat.com/mantis/view.php?id=1148

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Updated to 4.0.10

- Gizmo for 2D - grid, Materials and masks

- better algorithm for FFD pose deformations - should work cleaner.

- More visible symmetry point.

- wireframe in Edit all layers via PSD

- Big amount of bugs from Mantis fixed - including critical ones, see in Mantis.

- Splines improved - loading splines dialog got major improvement, now it is possible to place splines in space and import them as 3D - shapes.

- export big mesh from MV/PTEX as STL allowed for 3D printing.

- font updated to include all Unicode characters, style changed a little, symbols placement improved - symbols like VA Vo AY stay closer to each other.

- complete Chinese/Traditional Chinese translation included.

On Rauls side: Merged code with Raul. Even if I was trying to do all super accurately and have not found any issues, this area requires additional checks in real sculpting because combining code base with Raul was far not trivial.

- Copy clay (meshmixer-like) - copy pieces from surface and paste on other place - still requires cleanup from Raul. Should not be used in real job, it is still in very beta stage.

- Close holes works much more accurate and closes holes with very smooth patch.

- Bridge improvements - interpolated shape, auto-details

- boundary extrusion, boundary smoothing

Next month I will continue to work over cleaning up and stabilisation, so please post everything in Mantis, I will pay special attention to the reports. Almost all changes in this build was pointed not to introduce new features but to clean up existing ones.

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Fully featured meshmixing expected soon as well (developed by Raul). It is not based on Meshmixer technology, it is developed from scratch using same technology as used in supersmooth.

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W O W !

 

Huge upgrade ! 0_o

 

TY !

--------------------------

I cant rotate any material

 

any1 same issue ?

 

Material will be transformed using navigation bar = no rotate

Transform mask and material together = rotate

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W O W !

 

Huge upgrade ! 0_o

 

TY !

--------------------------

I cant rotate any material

 

any1 same issue ?

 

Material will be transformed using navigation bar = no rotate

Transform mask and material together = rotate

Reproduced, I can't rotate. But you may rotate with gizmo.

Do we really neer rotate control on the top? Maybe it is better to remove it and leave only gizmo?

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