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Andrew Shpagin

V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

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So far on my past experience, I plan to, like you said, start an aggressive testing session sometime in the week, but I don't know when, I've hardly enough time to sculpt for the challenge lately... (the last sculpt was a test of stability for the latest build).

 

Maybe it got better, I hope so, still those brushes which feel very poor...

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@JoseConseco:tweaked again...this one is much better(there was some shearing because of too low spacing values,it seems Liveclay brush does not like it as low as rapid2) artman LC Clay.3dcpack

 

Edit:its very cool,gives nicer results than rapid2 I find....but unfortunately it does not work proportionally in substraction mode....and there are no tweaks possible to fix this...unless I make them 2 separate brushes (I'll ask Andrew/Raul to look in this)

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Problem is that you can't substract with this brush. It's nice otherwise, it seems to emulate rapid with your settings you would need a much higher depth value with invert action.

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I just tried both pinch tools, one in Voxel Mode, one in Surface.  I actually prefer the Voxel Mode, due to the Surface Mode flattening the areas beside the pinch.  It's really just a preference.  

 

That said, I also noticed after I switched back to Voxel Mode, I had surfaces disappear, as Raul stated would happen, but that doesn't occur in other builds...and makes me wonder how unbelievably high my resolution could possibly be for the model, when it's only showing it's at 1.7 mil.  I have to say I'm not finding this new hiding of surfaces a useful or enjoyable feature at all.  I just want to sculpt, as I always had and not have the program dictate when my resolution is too high.  That should simply be limited to my computer resources...especially when I've driven 3D Coat to 57 million polys before...just to see how high I could take it.

 

Of course, I wouldn't want to sculpt with anything more than about where I'm at with this particular model.

Edited by alvordr

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I just tried both pinch tools, one in Voxel Mode, one in Surface.  I actually prefer the Voxel Mode, due to the Surface Mode flattening the areas beside the pinch.  It's really just a preference. 

 

Leaving the preference aspect aside: if you need very "sharp" pinched edges you need to increase resolution a lot in voxel, leading to high memory consumption, while in surface you can (not in the current build which has a bug though) freeze-protect the surrounding area and still get a sharp edge without having a huge memory consumption increase.

When doing sharp well defined models voxel is not the ideal choice, you need very high resolution which needs tons of memory and a good computer to handle all the data voxels generate.

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Problem is that you can't substract with this brush. It's nice otherwise, it seems to emulate rapid with your settings you would need a much higher depth value with invert action.

yeah found out while you were writing this...I might still use it though its really cleaner than rapid2 on low density meshes.

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Thanks artman for lc Clay brush. It's way better than any default LC brush, but this is what is happens when programmers are making brushes, and not artists ;). And I agree with what someone said here before - that default LC brushes are bit weird. I do not see why there are brushes like: wrinkle clay, ripple, extrude clay. They seem to be only be useful in very specific, rare occasions.

There are some great default brushes : crease clay, tube clay,  but they are hidden among not useful brush presets.

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Hum... the fact is this was extreme to demonstrate the point, but try to sculpt progressively without removestretching, if you really try to push the enveloppe, more than your initial base mesh it'll get distorted and stretched pretty quickly...

You can't blow a balloon without expecting it's surface to stretch...

 

AbnRanger, you maybe sculpting from a pretty  much definitive base mesh from voxel mode, but that's not the case of everyone. And if you want to sculpt quickly from the surface mode you NEED removestretching (or liveclay if you like it better). That's not a choice, that's a fact. I defy you to sculpt a character from a sphere in surface mode without removestretching/liveclay :)

you may do it, but that would be pretty stupid because you would need to subdivide your mesh to an insane amount of polys.

With remove stretching you can do whatever you want for a fraction of the cost of a quad based subdivision sculpt.

Defy is a rather bold word to choose. :) Plus, we were talking about REMOVE STRETCHING...alone. Not using LC or anything else. BTW, do I get anything if I defy that challenge and succeed? ;) When you use some of the SHIFT action options (Powerful Smoothing and Tangent Smoothing are two that come to mind), it optimizes the mesh anyway. Smooth All with Tangent Smoothing chosen, is another tool I use often...you can brush select areas to apply it to). So, Remove Stretching is but one means to.....well...remove stretching. :D

Edited by AbnRanger

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Thanks artman for lc Clay brush. It's way better than any default LC brush, but this is what is happens when programmers are making brushes, and not artists ;). And I agree with what someone said here before - that default LC brushes are bit weird. I do not see why there are brushes like: wrinkle clay, ripple, extrude clay. They seem to be only be useful in very specific, rare occasions.

There are some great default brushes : crease clay, tube clay,  but they are hidden among not useful brush presets.

Glad you like it :) it still shears to the other side when you work on the sides in symmetry doing fast strokes and inverted mode does not work proportionnaly at all,but its a good brush so I'll try to get Andrew or Raul to fix it as there are no good default LC Clay  brushes at the moment.It would be great also if TubeClay and Generalbrush had flatten curves as it seems only Liveclay basic brush benefited from this addition.

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Defy is a rather bold word to choose. :) Plus, we were talking about REMOVE STRETCHING...alone. Not using LC or anything else. BTW, do I get anything if I defy that challenge and succeed? ;) When you use some of the SHIFT action options (Powerful Smoothing and Tangent Smoothing are two that come to mind), it optimizes the mesh anyway. Smooth All with Tangent Smoothing chosen, is another tool I use often...you can brush select areas to apply it to). So, Remove Stretching is but one means to.....well...remove stretching. :D

 

 

Come on, this is starting to get ridiculous, you know what I mean... You're talking about tesselation enabled brushes to relax the mesh when there's an anti-stretching function available... in the brushes themselves.

You can play with word the truth is still there: the function is useful, maybe you chose other workflow but talking about using smoothing algorithm (which are destructive in their nature) while you could work directly without stretching from the get go, is a workaround.

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When doing sharp well defined models voxel is not the ideal choice, you need very high resolution which needs tons of memory and a good computer to handle all the data voxels generate.

 

I've not run into any need for overly high resolution or memory issues at all in Voxel Mode for this kind of thing.  I wonder if it's the (CUDA) (64-bit) thing and the comp I built.  Your experiences and mine differ quite a bit.

Edited by alvordr

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Come on, this is starting to get ridiculous, you know what I mean... You're talking about tesselation enabled brushes to relax the mesh when there's an anti-stretching function available... in the brushes themselves.

You can play with word the truth is still there: the function is useful, maybe you chose other workflow but talking about using smoothing algorithm (which are destructive in their nature) while you could work directly without stretching from the get go, is a workaround.

Truth is, Beat, with a relatively dense mesh, there isn't much stretching going on, unless you create a sizeable appendage like that. I don't mean to say it's useless...just not needed as often as it once was, and not necessary to keep on full time. Most people do some degree of smoothing on a sculpt and that tends to reorder the mesh, locally, anyway.

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I've not run into any need for overly high resolution or memory issues at all in Voxel Mode for this kind of thing.  I wonder if it's the (CUDA) (64-bit) thing and the comp I built.  Your experiences and mine differ quite a bit.

I actually like the feel of Voxels, sometimes. It has a more solid, clay-like feel to it, IMO. But, the fact remains that Andrew and Raul have focused more heavily on Surface mode, the past 2yrs or so, and I think that is where Andrew feels he wants to spend most of his development time/efforts. The recent brush feel/behavior in most of the Surface mode brushes has changed my perspective on it, and that, too is where I have chosen to do most of my sculpting, lately.

 

It's pretty incredible, actually, to think that he finally has it to where 3D Coat is legitimately in the very same conversation, now, as both ZBrush and Mudbox in terms of sculpting performance, brush feel, etc. In fact, the sculpting toolset in 3D Coat has already surpassed Mudbox, in terms of the number of brushes/tools/options for sculpting. When I visit MB, now, it almost feels like I'm taking a big step backwards, in many regards.

 

Much of that can be attributed to the way Autodesk handles it's software. They do the same thing with 3ds Max plugins. They acquire it and then leave them totally undeveloped, thereafter. I think from this point on, it's going to become more and more of a 2 horse race...between ZB and 3DC.

Edited by AbnRanger

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Truth is, Beat, with a relatively dense mesh, there isn't much stretching going on, unless you create a sizeable appendage like that. I don't mean to say it's useless...just not needed as often as it once was, and not necessary to keep on full time. Most people do some degree of smoothing on a sculpt and that tends to reorder the mesh, locally, anyway.

So remove stretching is not needed if you have a base mesh from which you don't deviate much. So it's not needed if you use voxel and then use surface for detailing. Sorry, I thought we could use the surface mode for more than detailing...

I thought we could choose. 

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So remove stretching is not needed if you have a base mesh from which you don't deviate much. So it's not needed if you use voxel and then use surface for detailing. Sorry, I thought we could use the surface mode for more than detailing...

I thought we could choose. 

Again, you keep going to one extreme or the other...to try and refute my opinion about the tool. Drastic stretching of polygons like using the Move tool or very deep strokes, it's useful. But under most sculpting usage, I don't see it being needed. As I stated before, it creates a noticeable pause after a stroke. For that reason, I'd rather deal with any modest levels of stretching with the Brush smoothing options we typically use all the time.

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I'm not going to the extreme, it's your pov which is extremely narrow. You don't even consider some people like to start like with real clay: blob of clay and creating full character from there...

Working without remove stretching, then using powerfull smoothing,which actually remove polys as it relaxes the mesh, very nice on an already low res mesh, is excuse me, quite stupid.

Maybe you like to scratch on an all shaped model at the very end of your sculpt in surface mode, I don't. I like to start from the ground up, from whatever mesh I use, be it a cube or a sphere or a god awful splat of clay, then push it to where I want.

 

Liveclay and removestretching are the way to go there since voxels are ressource costly, and the brushes there are so rough they start breaking apart when you start to shape intricate things.

 

You don't see the use for it, fine, but don't try to take this away from other who may be using this as their primary tool.

At this point if that's how it should go down, I may as well say that the voxel part of the app NEEDS to be removed since it's now obsolete... And I don't, since I like choices, even if they're not mine.

 

As for the pause: It's so fast I barely notice it anymore, you're making it sound like it's a big deal, it's not, and even if I see it, it doesn't stop me or slows me down in my sculpt. It's like zbrush adaptive degradation when I rotate around a multi level mesh... I just don't care as long as it keeps the show going smoothly.

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When I'm sculpting remove stretching is always turned on. One of the most important features in 3d-coat if you ask me.

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When I'm sculpting remove stretching is always turned on. One of the most important features in 3d-coat if you ask me.

I know I like to use it when working with the Expand brush, as it tends to allow geometry to kind of fold back on top of itself, around the edges, sometimes. But other tools like Clay, Buildup, Draw, etc....I prefer to leave it off.

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remove stretching is something, that I treat as 'poor' version of  LC. If all brushes supported dynamic tesselation, there would be no need for 'remove stretching' imo.

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remove stretching is something, that I treat as 'poor' version of  LC. If all brushes supported dynamic tesselation, there would be no need for 'remove stretching' imo.

 

I like the option of having both ways. Even though I use remove stretching most of the time, there are some circumstances that I've had where I didn't use remove stretching. I don't foresee it going anywhere, it's a very crucial option.

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Voxels,surface mode and LiveClay brushes give the artist many creative workflows to choose from. I create preset brushes for each mode. The power in 3DC is in creating you own preset brushes as artman has shown. I create preset brushes that work how I think as an artist therefore each mode as it's own value in my workflow. Some of my brushes use remove stretching and some do not. They are used at various stages in the sculpting. I even use the limited surface brushes that we have voxel mode adjusting them for a preset.

To me 3DC gives the artist great freedom in creating his work according to his style...

Edited by digman
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I also like having "remove stretching" in the Surface tools. I use it mainly when roughing out basic shapes with a low res mesh. Hopefully, we can get back the old version of the remesh key, without the popup window. 

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So far on my past experience, I plan to, like you said, start an aggressive testing session sometime in the week, but I don't know when, I've hardly enough time to sculpt for the challenge lately... (the last sculpt was a test of stability for the latest build).

 

Maybe it got better, I hope so, still those brushes which feel very poor...

 

 

Make Live Stream while you "aggressive testing"   :) I want to watch those tests ;) (I hope i don't sound like a little pervert ;D)

Edited by Creator

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BTW. I was going to ask how do you make those custom brushes? Is there some kind of tool for that, description of parameters etc? Or it is just xml editing in notepad? Is there a way to take any non LC brush, export to XML  add some xml tag, and make it LC brush?

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BTW. I was going to ask how do you make those custom brushes? Is there some kind of tool for that, description of parameters etc? Or it is just xml editing in notepad? Is there a way to take any non LC brush, export to XML  add some xml tag, and make it LC brush?

no,nothing that complicated  its just storing settings,depth curves,flattening curves ect...using Preset panel(little arrow in corner of preset tab let you decide what will or will not be stored).Its mostly guess and try.There is also general brush that is highly experimental(Andrew plan on rewriting it at some point) that can get you some nice results by mixing different behavior(but tons of checkboxes/sliders do not work or are not compatible with each others)... Personnaly I think toolset is complete right now(on my side)

meaning:I've got better version of ALL the brushes I used in MB/ZB (I mean...better for me.)

 

 

here are the key parameters (not in all brushes)

 

-Flattening Curve

-Depth Curve

-Radius Curve

-Alpha or alpha curves

-spacing(in pen options)---very important

-Rotate along stroke(in pen options)

-Anything in the upper Ui (soft stroke,Normal sampling ,ect...)

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