3D-Coat 3.7 updates thread

[jwiede]

Actually I kind of like the approach AbnRanger is proposing: Call v3.7.whatever (pick a stable subrev, .18 or whatever) the "final v3" and then treat everything afterwards as various pre-releases of v4. It avoids the "two live branches" problem, and realistically, calling v3.7 "the end" for v3 is still eminently fair in terms of everything that's been added in v3 since initial release.

BTW, any word on when .18 for Mac will show? If it's already been stated, my apologies, missed it.

[Andrew Shpagin]

BTW, any word on when .18 for Mac will show? If it's already been stated, my apologies, missed it.

It is in process. Will be soon.

[JimB]

Actually I kind of like the approach AbnRanger is proposing: Call v3.7.whatever (pick a stable subrev, .18 or whatever) the "final v3" and then treat everything afterwards as various pre-releases of v4. It avoids the "two live branches" problem, and realistically, calling v3.7 "the end" for v3 is still eminently fair in terms of everything that's been added in v3 since initial release.

BTW, any word on when .18 for Mac will show? If it's already been stated, my apologies, missed it.

Logic is a wonderful thing.

[b33nine]

18a still has problems with importing different UV sets for a model in the paint room.

[Polygoon]

My desktop short cuts have stopped working for 18A.

[AbnRanger]

My desktop short cuts have stopped working for 18A.

That's because the name has an extra letter "C" at the end of the 3D Coat.exe filename. A little boo-boo I suppose. Just noticed that.

[bisenberger]

Hi Andrew,

I'm good with whatever decision you make on versions and features. I appreciate you, your wonderful software and the modest price you charge for it.

It is also a privilege to be able to use and test new features in the beta releases.

Thanks,

Bill

[moska]

hi Andrew and All

im still in love with 3dcoat and mostly v4!

but i would like something cleaner or simple to grasp

for instance all these new features they need to be documented

sometimes it will be like be studying in a Class where info runs very fast and if you loose a bit

then you are in trouble...

just remember we people learn by ourselves and need guidance

i know its coasts but it needs good learning resorces to raise a comunity!

[JimB]

hi Andrew and All

im still in love with 3dcoat and mostly v4!

but i would like something cleaner or simple to grasp

for instance all these new features they need to be documented

sometimes it will be like be studying in a Class where info runs very fast and if you loose a bit

then you are in trouble...

just remember we people learn by ourselves and need guidance

i know its coasts but it needs good learning resorces to raise a comunity!

Quite right ,good documentation is as important as a good program.

[J0linar]

...good documentation, So far pilgway is doin fine with that, i have seen plenty of videos and well sometimes if we are honest u just need ur time to figure out the more complicated stuff

but ofc a solid documentation would be great to have...

now to the update talk, its a great thing to be able to test new stuff (stuff thats supposed to come in v4) like we can in 3dcoat

other softwares are not directing their focus on the userbase like pilgway does

so whatever decission nm wich way or how, we should be glad to be able to always test beta tools

keep it comin

[The Candy-floss Kid]

I'd probably leave the beta features working here without limitation, but NOT update them any further (publicly) until v4 comes out. No time restrictions, but no more public updates to those features until v4 goes live.

Out of all the suggestions this seems to make the most sense to me - it's simple and uncomplicated.

[Eric Cosky]

Andrew I think your current policy & plan regarding beta & disabling v4 features in v3 is perfectly fair & reasonable. Anyone familiar enough with 3DC to go in and turn on the beta checkbox, followed by the essential trips to the forums to figure out how to use the new features could only believe they were part of v3 if they are deliberately ignoring the obvious fact these are beta features for the next version. It is an almost universal fact that beta versions of significant software expire in order for very obvious reasons.

A closed beta will not provide as much feedback as an open beta, and 3DC would only suffer as a result of the reduced feedback. If there is anything at all to be done to improve the communication of this - the need for which is questionable at best imho - change the label on the beta checkbox to say "Beta test features for the next version" and make a dialog that pops up when it's turned on that says "Beta features are a work in progress for the next version. Do not enable this in a production environment unless you are willing to adapt to unforeseen stability issues during the beta process and intend to purchase the upgrade because there may be backward compatibility issues. These features will be disabled when the next version is released.".

IMHO anyone who thinks this policy is unreasonable is in fact the unreasonable one.

[The Candy-floss Kid]

IMHO anyone who thinks this policy is unreasonable is in fact the unreasonable one.

For the sake of new customers who may not be au fait with the expectations of Beta Cycles let us shy away form emotive judgements and keep things simple and clear and freeze v3 as is. New customers buying close to v4 release should also be entitled to v4 when released.

All new features/ forthcoming features and improvements as well as new input from Raul should be included on a v4 teaser page.

With Raul back on the team I'm sure they'll be plenty of fantastic reasons to invest in v4.

[Javis]

Hi guys!

Just arrived yesterday to Kiev and I wanted to drop a note to everyone! I need to update myself and try to read in the forum what I have missing that I suspect is a lot! Cheers

Raul

Welcome back Raul!

[AbnRanger]

hi Andrew and All

im still in love with 3dcoat and mostly v4!

but i would like something cleaner or simple to grasp

for instance all these new features they need to be documented

sometimes it will be like be studying in a Class where info runs very fast and if you loose a bit

then you are in trouble...

just remember we people learn by ourselves and need guidance

i know its coasts but it needs good learning resorces to raise a comunity!

That's why you have new feature demos on the Official 3D Coat Youtube Channel.

http://www.youtube.c...3DCoat/featured

It's posted on the Mainpage and in the tutorial section of this forum. Not sure what else they can do, until the new features are finalized in an official release. Most are in Beta, so it doesn't make sense to document Beta/unfinished features in the manual....does it? It's already a lot of work for a small staff to document the flurry of features, without having to constantly revise their work with Beta changes.

...New customers buying close to v4 release should also be entitled to v4 when released.

Best reason yet for a V4 Pre-Release. No confusion for prospective customers.

Andrew I think your current policy & plan regarding beta & disabling v4 features in v3 is perfectly fair & reasonable. Anyone familiar enough with 3DC to go in and turn on the beta checkbox, followed by the essential trips to the forums to figure out how to use the new features could only believe they were part of v3 if they are deliberately ignoring the obvious fact these are beta features for the next version. It is an almost universal fact that beta versions of significant software expire in order for very obvious reasons.

IMHO anyone who thinks this policy is unreasonable is in fact the unreasonable one.

The problem with that view is that everything after an official release is in fact...BETA. There has been no clear distinction between 3.7.xx features and V4 BETA features. Most of us regulars may understand this, but I doubt new users were/are aware of this, and will feel rather cheated if they bought the app for some of these features...only to find out there was some hidden stipulations that snatches those from them in a few months.

Again...it's a matter of clarity in communication. It hasn't been clear. I've been a long time user, and it was a big surprise to me. Now, what would have solved all of this is if the checkbox read "Show all V4 Beta tools."

[moska]

@thanks Abn!

i was looking for that:

voxel vertex painting

color spec and glow/emissive painting

and there it was

thanks

[Eric Cosky]

I would just like to quote version 3.7 of the 3DC manual, from November 2011:

"24.0 Beta tools

Edit->Preferences->Show beta tools.

Beta tools are mostly intended to be in the next V4 but if you want you may

enable them."

While clearly people have different ideas about the meaning of "beta", and perhaps Andrew could have made his intentions more obvious with different messaging in the application itself, I don't think it's very fair for him to have to grant V4 features to V3 users just because of a misinterpretation that could have been cleared up by looking at the manual.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: I suppose it could have helped to mention "beta features will be disabled when V4 comes out", but really folks what other programs have you ever seen that didn't disable public betas when the final version is released? It seems reasonable to give Andrew a pass on this even if you think it was an oversight considering all the stuff he has done to make 3DC and his open relationship with his customers what it is today.

[AbnRanger]

I would just like to quote version 3.7 of the 3DC manual, from November 2011:

"24.0 Beta tools

Edit->Preferences->Show beta tools.

Beta tools are mostly intended to be in the next V4 but if you want you may

enable them."

While clearly people have different ideas about the meaning of "beta", and perhaps Andrew could have made his intentions more obvious with different messaging in the application itself, I don't think it's very fair for him to have to grant V4 features to V3 users just because of a misinterpretation that could have been cleared up by looking at the manual.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: I suppose it could have helped to mention "beta features will be disabled when V4 comes out", but really folks what other programs have you ever seen that didn't disable public betas when the final version is released? It seems reasonable to give Andrew a pass on this even if you think it was an oversight considering all the stuff he has done to make 3DC and his open relationship with his customers what it is today.

And you read that in the manual before now? So, anyone who purchased 3D Coat because they saw some LiveClay demos, Vertex/Voxel Painting, etc shouldn't feel duped for having to pay for those features TWICE? During the whole Lightwave CORE debacle, you were paying...that's right PAYING to BETA TEST...so what you were working with is what you were going to get. Not snatch them back like fishing bait.

I am not aware of any other Open Beta model, so I don't know what other Open Betas you're referring to. Again, tucking this important information away in a manual isn't exactly full disclosure. I'm not saying that there are any ill intentions here...just that there hasn't been clear enough communication, and that in itself will cause some ill feelings from a portion of the customer base. Simply stating that the official 3.7 release was the final V3 release and thereafter naming subsequent builds V4 Beta 1.x would have been clear enough for anyone to understand. With 3D Coat always being in a Open Beta state, text saying "Show Beta Tools" doesn't mean anything, except to a few regulars on this forum.

[Gwynplaine]

I've been using V3 since it first came out, personally I'm happy with the suggestion to pick a stable release number if it's going to be different from V37-08B and call V3 finished. I'm not expecting any of the V4 tools to be included either, I'm satisfied with what V3 has on offer, stability is the main factor for me.

[Tony Nemo]

This whole brouhaha would be more understandable if we were talking about much bigger sums. I can't imagine a V4 price that would leave anyone in tears for their lost functionality. The present situation doesn't even call for a stiff upper lip.

[Eric Cosky]

And you read that in the manual before now?

Yes, quite some time ago in fact which is why I never even considered these features to be a permanent part of V3. You're right though, naming the builds V4 beta would have made it more clear however I don't agree that the lack of clarity here is enough to justify giving freebies away to people who couldn't be bothered to read the manual. Andrew deserves our support, and if people want to get bent out of shape over this then I would personally consider that to be an unfortunate and unjustified overreaction. Not that my opinion matters at all here.. and it is just my opinion.

This whole brouhaha would be more understandable if we were talking about much bigger sums. I can't imagine a V4 price that would leave anyone in tears for their lost functionality. The present situation doesn't even call for a stiff upper lip.

I couldn't agree more.

[Tser]

I have no problems with the "beta" tools being left out of the version 3.7x, as long as everything in 3.7x is not in "beta" and is rock solid and if there is a problem found then it should be fixed, but I am afraid that the 3.7x will become history and Andrew will just keep developing version 4.x and not have the time to worry about 3.7x. I personally don't use or need the whistles and bells which are the "beta" tools, I just need stability and fully functional, non-broken standard tools.

T.

[geo_n]

Can we all agree that these features are for v4 and should be turned off for the next V3 stable final build.

- iconic UI.

- Edit in photoshop with scaling

- beta tools

- retopo extrude

- vertex color painting

The next beta build should be named V4.

[AbnRanger]

I have no problems with the "beta" tools being left out of the version 3.7x, as long as everything in 3.7x is not in "beta" and is rock solid and if there is a problem found then it should be fixed, but I am afraid that the 3.7x will become history and Andrew will just keep developing version 4.x and not have the time to worry about 3.7x. I personally don't use or need the whistles and bells which are the "beta" tools, I just need stability and fully functional, non-broken standard tools.

T.

Not many developers, if any, have time to continue support of older versions. Basically, you have a chance to report bugs (using Mantis is the best way to ensure it gets looked at, as it allows Andrew to approach bug-fixing in a systematic fashion) up to a certain time threshold (official release). After that, good luck.

I am starting to see Andrew's point, though. Even though it wasn't communicated clearly, He did spend a lot of time trying to release a stable 3.7 official release, and therefore doesn't "owe" anyone of us a stable 3.7.18+ release. Why? Because everything since then (3.7.0) has effectively been a V4 Pre-Release. Should have been labeled as such, but it is what it is.

[artman]

Can we all agree that these features are for v4 and should be turned off for the next V3 stable final build.

- iconic UI.

- Edit in photoshop with scaling

- beta tools

- retopo extrude

- vertex color painting

The next beta build should be named V4.

I totally agree with that.

I would add colored spec and emissive support to that list...but thats only my opinion.

I think V4 needs strong incentives.

[Javis]

Artman, I agree. Colored spec and emissive should be on the list.

I think also LiveClay, since it was and is intended for version 4.

[TimmyZDesign]

Can we all agree that these features are for v4 and should be turned off for the next V3 stable final build.

- iconic UI.

- Edit in photoshop with scaling

- beta tools

- retopo extrude

- vertex color painting

The next beta build should be named V4.

Yeah, that's ok with me. After V4 comes out the beta builds after that should all be named V5.

[artman]

I think also LiveClay, since it was and is intended for version 4.

I think Liveclay is included in what are the "beta tools".

[Taros]

I have no problems with the "beta" tools being left out of the version 3.7x, as long as everything in 3.7x is not in "beta" and is rock solid and if there is a problem found then it should be fixed, but I am afraid that the 3.7x will become history and Andrew will just keep developing version 4.x and not have the time to worry about 3.7x. I personally don't use or need the whistles and bells which are the "beta" tools, I just need stability and fully functional, non-broken standard tools.

T.

Agree to this completely.

[Gwynplaine]

I can only speak for myself but I only purchased 3D Coat for it's UV mapping and Painting tools, the whole sculpting thing and all it's associated tools were just a tangent to me, interesting but never going to be used as I'm a mesh modeller and 3D Coat was the perfect mapping and painting tool for my requirements. As long as the UV Mapping and Painting tools are stable and work as expected then I'm a happy bunny. If, on the V3 final release, after so much time and effort has been spent on the programme, the UV Mapping and Painting tools are buggy and substandard then I doubt I will continue to use the programme, as "to me" they are the foundation on which the whole programme rests.