Jump to content
3DCoat Forums
Andrew Shpagin

V4.1 BETA (experimental 4.1.17D)

Recommended Posts

Ah, now I see it. I thought you created some new brush by some fancy tricks in xml, because default LC Clay brush sucks so much, and yours was completely different (better). But now I see it was mostly matter of proper depth curve. I hope default LC Clay will be fixed. And hopefully invert action will work again.

BTW. anyone can confirm this bug - when switching to LC Clay brush, object shader is getting bit darker, but after swiching to any other brush shader brightness is back to normal?

And another one LC Clay wont work with freeze... :(

Ok to sum up:

1) LC Clay suck with default settings

2) LC Clay invert action won't work

3) LC Clay don't take frozen areas into account

4) LC Clay makes shader go bit darker..

Not fun..

Edited by JoseConseco

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a bug/is a bug, it's highlight in voxel menu which is toggled with some brushes for no reason.

 

Frozen areas not taken into account is a bug in the current version, should be fixed in the next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, now I see it. I thought you created some new brush by some fancy tricks in xml, because default LC Clay brush sucks so much, and yours was completely different (better). But now I see it was mostly matter of proper depth curve. I hope default LC Clay will be fixed. And hopefully invert action will work again.

BTW. anyone can confirm this bug - when switching to LC Clay brush, object shader is getting bit darker, but after swiching to any other brush shader brightness is back to normal?

And another one LC Clay wont work with freeze... :(

Ok to sum up:

1) LC Clay suck with default settings

2) LC Clay invert action won't work

3) LC Clay don't take frozen areas into account

4) LC Clay makes shader go bit darker..

Not fun..

like Beat said 3) will be fixed in next update and 4) has been posted on Mantis so Andrew will probably take notice.

 

As for my LC  Clay preset there is quite few things that are still not right I discovered 1)it does not fill deep cavities as well as Rapid2 ,the sides of deep holes tend to fold on themselves which can lead to self-intersecting,2)also fast-stroking in symmetry while the object is in lateral views will sometimes make strokes pop up at unwanted places because the stroke will somehow shear to the other side of the symmetry line...hopefully this will get fixed but I'm not sure Andrew or Raul has time for this right now .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I tried to make bad things in 3dcoat for a while. My results:

 

-Surface (liveclay/removestretching enabled) brushes are somewhat ok. Only bridge (which create separate pieces btw, you can check with separate disconnected), copyclay and cutoff tends to create holesand  explosions.

-Conversion voxel<>surface is still not safe, most of the time surface mode recovers the mesh and looks ok but as soon as you go back to voxel and the mesh is corrupt (but not showing in surface) the voxel model is detroyed.

 

conversionBug.gif

 

So I'll stick to my workflow: avoid boolean operations and stick to surface mode, brush set in voxel is terrible anyway (couldn't find a simple clay brush that feel as good as the tenth of rapid2...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Conversion voxel<>surface is still not safe, most of the time surface mode recovers the mesh and looks ok but as soon as you go back to voxel and the mesh is corrupt (but not showing in surface) the voxel model is detroyed.

 

 

Please provide a file,a video....something to help Andrew reproduce quickly....

 

 

This is also part of Beta testing. No only using what works and avoid what does not work.

These builds are not just candy update they are also for testing and reporting :)

(I know you made tons of mantis report...but its not a reason to stop :) even if you are very busy...)

 

What about sym copy? It feels really safe on my side (in SF mode with LC interaction...probably even more in next build)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The gif posted should suffice: punch a hole with Bridge, press enter.

As for copy clay I submitted a bug report reproducibility is a bit random. Cutoff works randomly too with default sphere, somrtimes it simply doesn't cap the hole. When that happens voxel conversion is an automatic fail.

And gosh, I forgot to try symmcopy in my tests (Not using sym much these days ;) ).

I'll do another run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The gif posted should suffice: punch a hole with Bridge, press enter.

As for copy clay I submitted a bug report reproducibility is a bit random. Cutoff works randomly too with default sphere, somrtimes it simply doesn't cap the hole. When that happens voxel conversion is an automatic fail.

And gosh, I forgot to try symmcopy in my tests (Not using sym much these days ;) ).

I'll do another run.

Im talking about Surface-Voxel conversion in general (using SF/LC brushes or Proxy mode.....)

On my side it seems pretty stable...but it needs other users testing.Proxy mode is essential tool that should not be avoided out of fear.It allows to use large move brush,pose tool ect...We don't have 3dlayers yet but it would be a pity to stay away from multires since we've been asking for it for such a long time.... 

Again on my side,it seems pretty stable (unless there is intances...where I encountered disappearing instances after conversion sometimes) but I did not test thoroughly as the current project Im working on rely more on transformations than posing/tweaking.

 

thanx :)

 

Edit:Try it on sculpts you already made :) . Should take you 5-10 minutes maximum when you got time.

Proxy mode-posing/tweaking a little bit...(with Through all option if you like) then conversion.

It will be good testing because your sculpts rely heavily on LC/Removestretching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't trust proxy mode, here's an example (and it's always been my experience as this thing pretty much always destroyed my work sometimes noticing way too late):

 

proxyUnsafe.gif

 

I did minor adjustments on the thigh fibers, masking the cod piece, going back to full mode and I get this.

 

It's no big deal as the new algorithm recreate polystrips to fill the void in surface mode and make the surface workable again, but I'm not sure it's not corrupt anyway as the voxel conversion tends to show it.

 

On a side note: I'm eagerly waiting for a build with fixed freeze , it's though working without it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't trust proxy mode, here's an example (and it's always been my experience as this thing pretty much always destroyed my work sometimes noticing way too late):

 

proxyUnsafe.gif

 

I did minor adjustments on the thigh fibers, masking the cod piece, going back to full mode and I get this.

 

It's no big deal as the new algorithm recreate polystrips to fill the void in surface mode and make the surface workable again, but I'm not sure it's not corrupt anyway as the voxel conversion tends to show it.

masking is not supposed to work correctly in latest build...maybe it is why you got issue .

 

also Did you use Decimate mode or Degraded mode?

 

and What adjustment did you do; Move tool or Pose tool?

 

thanx again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I does the same thing with only going to proxy, making minor changes with rapid2 and going back to full mode. Conversion create the same problem.

 

As for your other question I don't understand.

And symmcopy seems safe again, probably thnx to autoreconstruction of polystrips on nearby holes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well there is 2 proxy mode (you select which one you want in voxel menu- Proxy Visualisation)

-Degrade (2x,4x ect...) use Voxels

-Decimate(2x,4x ect) use Decimation.

 

Also you mean going in proxy mode using rapid2 (without masking) and back to full mode creates same problem?

I am really not able to reproduce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was on decimate 4X (didn't touch that settings since I had forgotten this option since I hid all the proxy related items in my ui).

And yes the same problem occurs with only going to proxy, making changes with rapid2 and going back. There's no visible problem in surface, but as soon as I hit enter, not even validating I see the same thing as the gif above.

 

Using degrade does not create the problem though (but it's so rough it's useless to me).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was on decimate 4X (didn't touch that settings since I had forgotten this option since I hid all the proxy related items in my ui).

And yes the same problem occurs with only going to proxy, making changes with rapid2 and going back. There's no visible problem in surface, but as soon as I hit enter, not even validating I see the same thing as the gif above.

 

Using degrade does not create the problem though (but it's so rough it's useless to me).

Why do you press enter??...enter does not bring back fromProxy mode it resample  the mesh back to voxels...

You dont need to press enter AT ALL.... just click proxy button...do your changes...then click back on Proxy button.

Try sculpting,smoothing over area that got change when you get back in proxy mode to see if there is issues(I dont have any)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I press enter to simulate a workflow, I know enter = voxel and back. If I want to use proxy mode, continue my work and then convert to voxel for whatever reason (booleans ?) I get this issue. This is not acceptable.

This is not even my workflow to be honest (I don't even care about voxels anymore at least as much as I care about proxy mode). It's just that the proxy routine is breaking the mesh, as I always experienced it: unsafe.

 

This is beta test right ? New users are gonna do stupid things, they shouldn't experience bugs like that due to inexperience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I press enter to simulate a workflow, I know enter = voxel and back. If I want to use proxy mode, continue my work and then convert to voxel for whatever reason (booleans ?) I get this issue. This is not acceptable.

This is not even my workflow to be honest (I don't even care about voxels anymore). It's just that the proxy routine is breaking the mesh.

well its not breaking the mesh...since you can keep sculpting in sf mode afterward with all your changes done..

If the mesh was broken,trust me,you could not even lay a LC finger on it and it would explode. :)

 

What you seems to have found is an issue between resampling/and proxy mode....and frankly its a rare case when somebody is gonna do that.It is an issue nevertheless and should be fixed...

(Andrew?? do we really need to post a Mantis report;I think Beat gif is pretty clear :) )

 

but again Proxy mode in itself (going back from a lighter version of a LC sculpted 5 miilion piece to do some changes) works perfectly fine on my side(exept when instances are involved)

 

thanx for testing :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Proxy still doesn't work properly even without conversion, it creates tears in the mesh, as shown in the gif, only the new algorithm for liveclay is recreating the missing tris between the edges. It's done live, it's why it doesn't explode anymore. It's still broken. here's what it looks like in zbrush:

brokenmesh.jpg

 

 

As you can see the surface is reconstructed to avoid disconnected pieces, and that's what's creating the mess after conversion, I suppose the conversion function is not understanding the new set of vertices/normals whatever and fills the void in its own way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Proxy still doesn't work properly even without conversion, it creates tears in the mesh, as shown in the gif, only the new algorithm for liveclay is recreating the missing tris between the edges. It's done live, it's why it doesn't explode anymore. It's still broken. here's what it looks like in zbrush:

brokenmesh.jpg

 

 

As you can see the surface is reconstructed to avoid disconnected pieces, and that's what's creating the mess after conversion, I suppose the conversion function is not understanding the new set of vertices/normals whatever and fills the void in its own way.

Thanx :)

edit:What I dont understand is 1) why am I not experiencing this? and also In proxy mode Liveclay is not involved at all,its pure SF mode...so the only thing that remains is weight calculation between the SF proxy and the original LC mesh.So something probably happens at the projection stage that mess up the topology. Again,its just projection its not supposed to change the topology at all...so I dont understand.

 

Andrew?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem comes from the voxel mode, I always had similar mess as the last step of the gif after a while. Somehow the mesh gets holes, and the voxel mode fills the void how it can (it's the infamous "artefacts" rendering voxel mode useless if you put the crappy brush aside).

This is the same thing with the hole in the sphere gif: bridge creates disconnected pieces along the bridged faces (you can see the running strips in green just before voxel conversion btw !). The voxel mode then tries to fill everything but there's two surfaces, it proceed to fill it in a messy way.

 

 

 

 

What I dont understand is 1) why am I not experiencing this? and also In proxy mode Liveclay is not involved at all,its pure SF mode...so the only thing that remains is weight calculation between the SF proxy and the original LC mesh.So something probably happens at the projection stage that mess up the topology. Again,its just projection its not supposed to change the topology/polycount at all...so I dont understand.

 

 

 

The fixing happens when you brush (smoothing works too as demonstrated on the gif) over the teared part. It's not fixed out of the box, but when you try to overwrite the cells.

 

liveFixing.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem comes from the voxel mode, I always had similar mess as the last step of the gif after a while. Somehow the mesh gets holes, and the voxel mode fills the void how it can (it's the infamous "artefacts" rendering voxel mode useless if you put the crappy brush aside).

This is the same thing with the hole in the sphere gif: bridge creates disconnected pieces along the bridged faces (you can see the running strips in green just before voxel conversion btw !). The voxel mode then tries to fill everything but there's two surfaces, it proceed to fill it in a messy way.

 

 

you said you used Decimate4x....so there is no voxel mode involved...I dont understand.Its all pure SF mode.

The fixing happens when you brush (smoothing works too as demonstrated on the gif) over the teared part. It's not fixed out of the box, but when you try to overwrite the cells.

I dont even get the teared part...

 

edit:but polycount is slightly differnnt when going back, it is not supposed to I think...since surface was only deformed and projected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you said you used Decimate4x....so there is no voxel mode involved...I dont understand.Its all pure SF mode.

 

When in proxy mode yes, but going back from proxy, the way I see it, is VOXEL>surface resampling. Unless you use voxel (reduce) and then it's direct surface resampling and you've no chance of hurting the mesh.

The final mess you see in the gif with the thighs is the conversion kicking in trying to fill the voids of surface, then resampling back to surface mode. Creating the awfull mess.

 

In short: if you've got tears that liveclay didn't fix by "bridging" you're the happy owner of a voxely-mess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thats the kind of wireframe I get when going back from proxy mode between LC sculpting...its super clean mesh...Im clueless.

post-1195-0-55209500-1387030942_thumb.jp

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When in proxy mode yes, but going back from proxy, the way I see it, is VOXEL>surface resampling. Unless you use voxel (reduce) and then it's direct surface resampling and you've no chance of hurting the mesh.

there is no resampling at all

 

it is all SFmode

1)Original SF/LC mesh (SF mode)

2)-Decimate(decimation IS surface mode operation)

3) projection calculation between Decimated and Original LC mesh.

There is no voxel mode conversion involved when using Decimate4x.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no resa,pling at all

 

it is all SFmode

1)Original SF/LC mesh (SF mode)

2)-Decimate(decimation IS surface mode operation)

3) projection calculation between Deciamted and Original LC mesh.

There is no voxel mode conversion involved.

 

I'm not sure about that, it may look like it from a user pov but under the hood I suspect voxel operations (step3 for the general shape before reprojection). In any case I exposed why I don't trust proxy, if I don't use it, no problem. Same with copy clay (which imo is a quick fix, it looks like one case of user input not taken into account, I posted on mantis about it) and bridge which creates disconnected pieces.

 

Overall liveclay/removestretching is pretty stable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure about that, it may look like it from a user pov but under the hood I suspect voxel operations. In any case I exposed why I don't trust proxy, if I don't use it, no problem. Same with copy clay (which imo is a quick fix, it looks like one case of user input not taken into account, I posted on mantis about it) and bridge which creates disconnected pieces.

 

Overall liveclay/removestretching is pretty stable.

thanx again for testing,Andrew will probably have fun reading this. :)

I still dont understand why we dont get same results at all tough.,,,

 

(as for Copy Clay it  is super unfinished and Andrew warned us about this in last update)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not worried about Copy Clay (besides it's super rough in functionality, for instance there's no way to copy a part more than once like I would do with clone stamp; it's clearly a very WIP tool).

 

I've a few questions though, if Andrew would care to answer, related to some function in the software I'm not sure to use correctly.

 

For instance, in voxel menu, "accurate smoothing" is said in the manual to "provides more accurate smoothing at the expense of performances". Is is both in surface or only in voxel ?

I don't see a change in surface.

 

The skip rendering: if I deactivate it there's nothing to see anymore, is it normal or is it the remains of an old functionality long time gone ? In the manual the item doesn't even have an explanation (even the creator doesn't have a clue ? ;) ). And if it works properly, what the use for it ?

 

The incremental render: if I deactivate it there's no changes, it used to refresh the surface only when moving the camera around. Is is useful now that it refresh ALWAYS ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×